Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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At a quick guess, it can't move because the idea was 'a trap spell that holds people and does damage' and the fact that it is an elemental is more flavoring than anything else.
Yes, other Conjurations can move around, but they don't Restrain people as a general rule. You could just as easily say 'other Conjurations can Restrain an enemy, so why not the celestial?' for Conjure Celestial.
Conjurations are a kind of weird area when you think about them. They typically occupy some kind of space but can be moved through and are usually immune to any and all attacks. Not just swords and bows, but Force, Cold, and anything else that would, in theory, be damaging to them. In both the case of Conjure Celestial and Conjure Elemental the Caster has to be able to see the Target to affect them. Even though the elemental is, theoretically, some kind of being, if the Caster has been Blinded or is around a corner the elemental is unable to attempt to Restrain anyone moving through it.
Please understand, I am not talking about whether the spell as it currently sits is balanced. That is an entirely separate tin of subterranean spaghetti. I am simply talking about the 'logic' of 'why can't the Conjuration do X'.
its a kind of weird spell.
It has a decent area and last 10 minutes so you'd think its a big obstruction but it can only target 1 creature.
It does not seem to have a mechanic to stop restraining someone in case a better target comes along.
It is not clear if it stops restraining on death outside the rules logic that hey are no longer creatures and therefore no longer valid targets. And i am not fan of spells that require that kind of rules knowledge in their language.
Given that blight one level lower does 8d8 and that is it, its not a bad damage spell with a restrain attached. but why have it cover a 16 square area as its target if it only targets one person. why does it even have a 10 minute duration if its not mobile, especially since it can only stop one person so it does not work great as a barrier or obstruction
It falls into this weird zone if you are trying to lock a target down there are better options, if you are trying to do damage there are better options. But I guess it does both reasonably well. So its not bad. But it has a really weird design. like someone was designing the mechanic of a single target decent damage restrain and another person was designing the description or a large elemental that can hit anything in reach and they never spoke to one another, then the spell got put together into one spell.
It can only *restrain* one creature. It targets every creature in the area at the start of that creature's turn, or when it enters the area. It only stops targeting creatures when one of those creatures fails the save, survives the resulting damage, and is restrained. When the elemental is restraining a creature, then yes it stops targeting anything else. If that creature dies or escapes the restraint then the elemental starts targeting everything in the area again.
That is not the same function as trying to lock down one creature. It may not seem particularly powerful to you, but it should not be compared to the damage of blight or fireball, or the lock down power of hold monster - because it is a very different mechanic.
If you are trying to target a specific creature with this spell then you can choose to not have any creatures before your intended target roll the save, but yes after the save is rolled and failed then the Restrain cannot be undone. You can, of course, reset the Restrain by killing the restrained creature yourself.
...That sounds like a distinction without a difference though. It does seem like it will be a big obstacle, but then it only ever hurts zero or 1 creature per turn. I'd say it's fair to call that not much of an obstacle. My money is also on the fact that creatures you're battling at this tier of play aren't often getting dropped by 8d8 (or 36) damage. (I'm at least glad you have some different damage types to choose from.)
8d8 is not nothing, especially because you have the chance to deal it to different targets over time. But it feels like you're going to have only very specific situations when you can cast cast this for more than one or two instances of damage. It's double the damage of Bigby's Hand (also 5th level), and it's more efficient (the damage and restraining happen in the same instant as opposed to the damage and grappling of the Hand)... but the Hand is going to be useful in 90% of encounters, whereas this... isn't (in my opinion).
Great flavor; I'm glad they made all the changes to the conjure spells to provide more variety. It's just too restricted for my taste.
Bigby's is definitely a more versatile spell, but note that using it requires every bonus action on every one of the caster's turns. It can grapple, not restrain, and one round later it can damage the grappled target.
The elemental is the spell which can damage multiple targets per round, and it requires no further actions/bonus/reactions. If it Restrains a target then your side has permanent advantage, helping you kill it before the end of the round and activating the elemental again. If there are no targets in the elemental area then the spell is doing its job - you can stand in that area and suffer no melee threats. I know that if I were an average creature I would not willingly walk into the elemental area - even if it was currently occupied restraining another target I would know I'd be next at the start of my turn.
This spell will generally not be useful in a situation where the enemies can deal more ranged damage than the party, but in an ongoing melee situation or to protect ranged PCs from melee threat, there are features to this spell that no other similar level spell can match.
(I will admit this is not a good conjuration spell for a conjuration specialist wizard, as it benefits from practically none of the features of that subclass, so it also means the Adept feat which grants it is less useful for the subclass - but for a druid, another wizard or any other caster who takes the feat, it will be one of their most powerful conjuration spells)
totally agree on all of the distinctions about Bigby's Hand!
But I want to emphasize: "damage multiple targets per round" is going to be a _very_ rare thing.
You can cast it on a group of goblins or or orcs or whatever on your turn; nothing happens immediately. As their turns come up, the bad guys in the area roll their saves, and the spell probably kills them straight away. I think most DMs would rule that a target dying means that the spell drops the corpse to allow the elemental to conceivably restrain others in its area if they fail their saves. NOTE: This is not RAW; the spell says it restrains that creature until the spell ends or the creature makes its save. So, sure, if the party of 9th level characters ran into a dozen orcs or guards in a somewhat constrained area, this spell would damage and kill multiple targets in a round (albeit less reliably than most other area effect spells, but at least there's no friendly fire).
I think that's going to be rare because that is likely not among the more challenging encounters the party will face. The wizard using their only 5th-level slot to cast this on a room full of enemies that can be dealt with using far less valuable and scarce resources is... not out of the question, but, to my point, the circumstances will be more rare.
Most of the threats facing that same party are going to have quite a few more hit points.
cr 4: ettin has 85 hp, bone naga has 65, tough boss 82
cr 5: flesh golem 127, wraith 67
cr 6: wyvern 127
cr 7: young black dragon 127
cr 8: frost giant 149
Too many variations to account for (number of threats to say the least), but if you're up against something that's punching in your weight class, you're generally only going to be restraining and damaging zero or 1 creature per round. Because once it gets one target restrained, it no longer tries to get any others.
Overall, though, you're absolutely right about Bigby's. You have to invest actions to make it do stuff, it doesn't do as much at the same time. At my tables, however, I'm way more likely to memorize it over Conjure Elemental because I can reliably use it in a wide variety of situations and more creatively and against the specific threats I target.
While yes it is possible to hit more than one creature in a round as once a creature dies it is now an object and not a valid target of the spell, that will be rare. And the thing is even against melee enemies it frequently wont be useful. Enemies do not have to accept where and when you decide to fight. Other than the one guy potentially restrained, everyone else can just walk away and close the door and wait for the spell to end. sure if you are guarding the flag and need to only hold it for 10 minutes super cool. They have to come at you. Or a flat open plane where you can destroy them at range easily. But otherwise they can just fall back and say super cool spell bro, we will sit here behind full cover until it goes away.
A corpse is a creature, not an object. See: the wording within all of the resurrection spells. See also: Rules Glossary / Dead.
That doesn't mean the spell will hang on to the dead creature for the entire duration.
The spell is extremely unclear on how targets change. While it's possible that the only way to grab a new creature is for the current victim to save, it seems unlikely.
not according to Jeremy Crawford. dead creatures are now considered objects. like i said earlier as that seems to the only way to switch targets other than them saving I don't like the spell requiring that much rules mastery where you have to go beyond the rules to find out the dead creatures are a type of object than can be hit with object based targeting like the animate object spell, used a improvised weapon, but also are effected by raise dead etc.
edit to add and not many creatures will break free on subsequent rounds. Its a dex save and while restrained you have disadvantage on dex saves. Maybe that is the hidden power of the spell, it locks a creature down and most likely forever.
Well, not everyone agrees on that:
- Defination of 'Creature'
- Scrying a Corpse
- Question about Planar Binding
- Can you twin true resurrection?
- Question about Scrying on a dead person
I agree that a corpse is still a creature, but I'd rule on this spell the way as MyDudeicus (#28) or jl8e suggested (#30).
EDIT: for clarity.
It can also restrain a creature of absolutely any size. Gargantuan creature, disadvantage to escape, disadvantage on its attacks, advantage on all attacks against it. Not useless.
Not disagreeing with you about this spell, but:
The creature-vs-object status of corpses in the rules is unclear. It's probably either context-dependent or both.
The spell has to drop dead creatures to meaningfully work.
I don't think that this is necessarily the case. The spell might just be designed to kill a maximum of 1 creature. After this happens you can simply drop concentration to end the spell. Also, whenever a creature is eligible to be affected by this spell, the spellcaster has the option to initiate this saving throw mechanic or not so if they think they want to wait for the possibility of affecting a "better" creature later on then that's a choice that can be made.
Au contraire, the 5.5e glossary is quite clear on the subject. An object is defined as "a non-living distinct thing". A corpse is quintessentially non-living. By contrast, a creature is defined with "any being in the game is a creature". A 'being' is dictionary defined as a living thing.
Once a creature dies then the body of that creature is no longer a creature, since it is non-living (it is still an ex-creature of sorts, which can be used to target certain spells at the entity the creature used to be, or its potentially revivable spirit).
Therefore, once a creature dies then the elemental is no longer restraining a creature, so it is free to force other creatures (living beings) to make the dex save. If the corpse was revived before the end of the spell then it would immediately return to being restrained - which could result in multiple creatures being restrained at once, since the spell's limitation is only on forcing the save (when not restraining a creature) not on how many things can be restrained.
yeah its not really bad, its just weird. being a large creature with a emanation just sets up implications the spell does not pay off on. i mean think of a large fire elemental is plopped down and all but one dude just runs right through it like its not there. its just weird.
Nah, this can be interpreted in two ways. The way in which you are suggesting above directly contradicts all of the other text on the subject throughout the game.
To remain consistent with other text, simply interpret this definition of an object to be categorizing things instead of as a description of their current state.
For example, a bird is a living thing, even if the particular bird in question is currently dead. A rock is a non-living thing, even if the particular rock in question is currently alive.
__________
Note that the main bit of text in the 2014 rules that most "corpse is an object" believers used to hang their hat on was the suggestion that a "dead goblin" is an "object" that could be used as an improvised weapon. That text has been explicitly and deliberately removed from the 2024 rules.
In this game if a rock is currently alive, then the game will provide a stat block for (probably a Construct or Elemental type) creature named "Animated Rock". That rock is completely a creature and not at all an object. The rock was previously absolutely an object but now it is a creature. It has statistics. The rock has a dexterity value. It can make a perception check using its wisdom stat. It takes actions.
When a bird is dead in this game it no longer has a stat block. The bird corpse does not have a dexterity value. It has no wisdom with which to perceive. It can take no actions. It is not just a living creature which is currently suffering from a condition called Dead. There is no Dead condition. The dead bird is a valid target for any spell which must be cast at a dead creature - but it is does not currently meet the defining characteristics of a creature.
Creatures can also become objects via magical effects like True Polymorph. That ex-creature is competely an object until it transforms back into a creature. If the elemental was restraining the creature before it turned into an object then from that moment it is not restraining a creature so other targets are available.
This is only true if the game element, such as a spell, which causes this explicitly says that that's what happens.
For example, in the transmutation spell Animate Objects, the text says: "Each target animates, sprouts legs, and becomes a Construct that uses the Animated Object stat block; this creature is under your control . . . When the creature drops to 0 Hit Points, it reverts to its object form".
In this case, the object (a rock, for example) actually "becomes" something else entirely. Its new form is a creature with a defined creature type and stat block. This happens only because the spell description explicitly says that this happens. This is not just a rock that is alive. Something specific has happened to it.
This is false. You'll find no rules text which supports that.
Instead, what actually happens to a creature when it dies is defined in Rules Glossary / Dead:
Nothing in there states or even implies that such creatures have become objects.
Now, it is certainly possible for a creature to become an object if the effect which causes that to happen explicitly says so. But simply dying is not such an effect.
For example, in the transmutation spell True Polymorph, the text says: "The creature shape-shifts into a different creature or a nonmagical object . . . The transformation lasts for the duration or until the target dies or is destroyed . . . If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form, as long as the object’s size is no larger than the creature’s size. The creature’s statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form after the spell ends and it returns to normal."
In this case, the creature actually "becomes" something else entirely. Through a transmutational process that is initiated by a magical effect, the creature actually explicitly transforms into an object. This happens only because the spell effect explicitly says that that's what happens. Dying in and of itself does not cause anything like this to happen to a creature.
So, to be clear, in your opinion if I were to cast Faerie Fire on this dead bird it would roll a Dex save using the dexterity on its stat block? It would roll to dodge my fireball and my lightning bolt? If I try to pick up the dead bird it would choose a Str or Dex save to resist my grapple attempt?
While we're in the business of pointing out what isn't written in the Dead rules - there certainly isn't anything changing the way its saving throws function. The only conditions which could possibly be inferred to be currently affecting the corpse might be those "any conditions affecting it at death" and, being a regular monster, when it reached 0 HP it died outright. The rules are clear that it never received the Unconscious condition. Heck, it isn't even Prone.
The text which states and implies that a corpse is an object is that an object is defined as a "non-living thing" and a creature is defined as a "being". A corpse is the first thing, not the second.
As far as I know there are no further complications with my interpretation. I don't have any corpses resisting my grapples.