[Order of Scribes] Does the Wizardly Quill really NOT remove the gold cost for copying spells? (RAW vs RAI vs common sense)

Why was Identify needed? We have this for 2024 Wizards and the Level 1: Spellcasting feature:

Spellbook. Your wizardly apprenticeship culminated in the creation of a unique book: your spellbook. It is a Tiny object that weighs 3 pounds, contains 100 pages, and can be read only by you or someone casting Identify. You determine the book’s appearance and materials, such as a gilt-edged tome or a collection of vellum bound with twine.

Honest question. Do all the spellbooks in the game have that requirement?

Quote from TarodNet >>

Why was Identify needed? We have this for 2024 Wizards and the Level 1: Spellcasting feature:

Spellbook. Your wizardly apprenticeship culminated in the creation of a unique book: your spellbook. It is a Tiny object that weighs 3 pounds, contains 100 pages, and can be read only by you or someone casting Identify. You determine the book’s appearance and materials, such as a gilt-edged tome or a collection of vellum bound with twine.

Honest question. Do all the spellbooks in the game have that requirement?

 Huh. I’d never noticed that before. It’s in the class description, so I suppose, yes. Unless you somehow have a spellbook and are not a wizard?🤷‍♂️ Which I guess could be the case for some NPCs?🤷‍♂️

The exciting thing to me is an actual RAW use that requires  identify.

Quote from EdO06057 >>

 I have a potential solution.  You can copy spells in the field if you have the "rare inks and materials" in your backpack.  Makes sense to me that Order of Scribes character would always have a supply of that on hand right?

 Seems like all wizards would have that on hand. Putting spells on the spellbook is a big part of the class.  But then are you going to make them track how much of it they’ve used up? If you do, that’s fine, but then I hope you’re also making the archer track their arrows, etc.

That was not a complaint. I was simply stating the fact. I don't want 150gp at level one. I do want to adventure to get the scroll and gold to add it to my spell book. I guess I just suck at communicating because I thought I was quite clear about that. The fighter can find better armor and then immediately use that armor. The OoS wizard can find a 1st level spell scroll and 50 gp, but according to AntonSirius' play style cannot immediately add that to their spell list.

Quote from Dwayden >>

Okay, I lied. I will respond because I want to point out to everyone that might read this thread that Death House (an official WotC publication designed to level you up from 1 to 3) has a spell book with a couple of level 1 or 2 spells (DM discretion). There is also some really valuable jewelry. I literally ran this a while back playing as a Cleric. The Wizard in the group had prepared Witch Bolt as her big damage spell. Once you're in Death House you cannot get out until you go through it. The DM felt bad for her because the end boss is immune to lightning damage. To help with this he had one of the jewelry items have a pearl worth 100gp. This allowed her to cast Identify on the spellbook as a ritual, thus not taking a spell slot and then learn Ray of Sickness from the book.

Yeah, in that situation the DM did the right thing by including a pearl in the jewelry. But that's the DM's job, to know the module and adjust it based on player choices, and if you're in a locked environment with no escape until you get to level 3, they'll need to account for material components and such. That's an unusual introductory adventure designed for the Domains of Dread though, which is a more grim, resource-focused setting. Having an item that could save you if only you had some way of using it is thematically on point, not an oversight

(I'd also question why the wizard didn't have a cantrip with a different damage type available as a fallback, though. That's also the sort of thing a DM should spot in character creation, especially for new players, and suggest, "Hey, witch bolt's great, but you might also want fire bolt as a backup. Just in case")

That is my interpretation. That Identify would be needed to read another wizards spell book

Quote from Dwayden >>

That was not a complaint. I was simply stating the fact. I don't want 150gp at level one. I do want to adventure to get the scroll and gold to add it to my spell book. I guess I just suck at communicating because I thought I was quite clear about that. The fighter can find better armor and then immediately use that armor. The OoS wizard can find a 1st level spell scroll and 50 gp, but according to AntonSirius' play style cannot immediately add that to their spell list.

Yeah, about that... in my homebrew campaign, the paladin did find a suit of full plate in a dungeon. They actually could not immediately put it on, because they were a kobold and needed to get it re-sized and modified to accommodate their tail

Funny thing about your Fighter/OoS example: that same paradigm exists for every other Wizard as well. One of the trade-offs of being a caster is you get far fewer plug-and-play pieces of equipment. This isn’t some special shortcoming of Scribes Wizards, it’s just game design/balance.

Quote from Xalthu >>

Quote from EdO06057 >>

 I have a potential solution.  You can copy spells in the field if you have the "rare inks and materials" in your backpack.  Makes sense to me that Order of Scribes character would always have a supply of that on hand right?

 Seems like all wizards would have that on hand. Putting spells on the spellbook is a big part of the class.  But then are you going to make them track how much of it they’ve used up? If you do, that’s fine, but then I hope you’re also making the archer track their arrows, etc.

It really depends on the tone of the campaign, but I'd view scribing ink no differently than consumable material components

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Funny thing about your Fighter/OoS example: that same paradigm exists for every other Wizard as well. One of the trade-offs of being a caster is you get far fewer plug-and-play pieces of equipment. This isn’t some special shortcoming of Scribes Wizards, it’s just game design/balance.

 Yes, I know but it seems to me that the OoS subclass specifically wants to allow for just that (learning new spells in the "field"). But, hey I am totally willing to admit I could be wrong.

Quote from Xalthu >>

Quote from TarodNet >>

Why was Identify needed? We have this for 2024 Wizards and the Level 1: Spellcasting feature:

Spellbook. Your wizardly apprenticeship culminated in the creation of a unique book: your spellbook. It is a Tiny object that weighs 3 pounds, contains 100 pages, and can be read only by you or someone casting Identify. You determine the book’s appearance and materials, such as a gilt-edged tome or a collection of vellum bound with twine.

Honest question. Do all the spellbooks in the game have that requirement?

 Huh. I’d never noticed that before. It’s in the class description, so I suppose, yes. Unless you somehow have a spellbook and are not a wizard?🤷‍♂️ Which I guess could be the case for some NPCs?🤷‍♂️

The exciting thing to me is an actual RAW use that requires  identify.

 I was thinking the opposite, since NPCs and monsters don't always follow the same rules as PCs, nor do they have those kinds of features.

BTW, a related thread about this topic: Wizards Copying Spells from other Wizards' Spellbooks 2024 Edition

Quote from Xalthu >>

Quote from EdO06057 >>

 I have a potential solution.  You can copy spells in the field if you have the "rare inks and materials" in your backpack.  Makes sense to me that Order of Scribes character would always have a supply of that on hand right?

 Seems like all wizards would have that on hand. Putting spells on the spellbook is a big part of the class.  But then are you going to make them track how much of it they’ve used up? If you do, that’s fine, but then I hope you’re also making the archer track their arrows, etc.

 Yup, I require archers, crossbow users, sling users, to track ammo!  At the end of the conflict, per RAW, missile users can choose to salvage used ammo, recovering 50% of what they shot/launched, the other 50% being too banged-up to be reused.

I would like to point out that RAW states exactly this word for word:

"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a level 1+ Wizard spell, you can copy it into your spellbook if it’s of a level you can prepare and if you have time to copy it. For each level of the spell, the transcription takes 2 hours and costs 50 GP. Afterward you can prepare the spell like the other spells in your spellbook."

So, RAW says nothing about needing to buy specific materials. Thus, a wizard (ANY wizard for that matter) just needs the required amount of time and gold to copy a spell into their book. That's it, no needing to go to a shop to buy stuff.

You may argue "But, Dwayden obviously you need to buy the stuff. That's just implied. It's RAI not RAW."

To wit, I could say (if I were the snarky type) "Ah, yes and the Wizardly Quill makes its own ink so obviously a OoS wizard would have a reduced cost. That's just implied. It's RAI not RAW"

RAW never says that you use ink to copy spells into your spellbook, and given that ink is 10 gp for 500 pages, or 2 cp per page, it's clearly not a major part of the cost of copying spells into your spellbook. The wizardly quill produces "ink", not "any material that you can use to write with, no matter how expensive".

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

RAW never says that you use ink to copy spells into your spellbook, and given that ink is 10 gp for 500 pages, or 2 cp per page, it's clearly not a major part of the cost of copying spells into your spellbook. The wizardly quill produces "ink", not "any material that you can use to write with, no matter how expensive".

 Yes, exactly. RAW never says specifically. Thus, by the same internally consistent logic I can surmise that a wizard doesn't need to go to a shop to buy stuff because "RAW never says ...". They simply need 50gp per level of spell they want to copy.

Quote from Dwayden >>

I would like to point out that RAW states exactly this word for word:

"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a level 1+ Wizard spell, you can copy it into your spellbook if it’s of a level you can prepare and if you have time to copy it. For each level of the spell, the transcription takes 2 hours and costs 50 GP. Afterward you can prepare the spell like the other spells in your spellbook."

So, RAW says nothing about needing to buy specific materials. Thus, a wizard (ANY wizard for that matter) just needs the required amount of time and gold to copy a spell into their book. That's it, no needing to go to a shop to buy stuff.

You may argue "But, Dwayden obviously you need to buy the stuff. That's just implied. It's RAI not RAW."

To wit, I could say (if I were the snarky type) "Ah, yes and the Wizardly Quill makes its own ink so obviously a OoS wizard would have a reduced cost. That's just implied. It's RAI not RAW"

Huh. Another change in 5e24 that seems to have slipped under the radar

In 2014, that section says

For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.

So problem solved. (And a good thing to know if you plan on using Scribes with 5e24, before it gets an official update)

Yeah, people already pointed out the difference between the 2014 and 2024 wording about ink earlier in the thread and used it to support their argument.

Quote from Dwayden >>

 Yes, exactly. RAW never says specifically. Thus, by the same internally consistent logic I can surmise that a wizard doesn't need to go to a shop to buy stuff because "RAW never says ...". They simply need 50gp per level of spell they want to copy.

Hm. I take it back, ink is used, though in the (undefined) special category of "fine inks", which may or may not be the same thing as the ink a scribe's quill can produce. "The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it."

I have no idea what 'fine inks' are supposed to be, 50 gp per page is 2,500x the cost of normal ink, and given ink is already 10 gp per ounce (or about 3x the cost of gold), it's either extremely exotic, outright magical, or not a significant part of the cost, and in none of those cases would the scribe's pen meaningfully change the cost of copying scrolls.

"Fine Inks" and  "Material Components" were mentioned in the 2014 rule set. But, in the new 2024 rule set there is no mention of specific "stuff". Granted all this gets a bit confusing when trying to apply the 2024 rules to a subclass written before that rule set came out.

Frankly, I expect arguments like this are why they stopped dressing up the cost as specific materials and made it an overt cash gate in the rules.