So, I had a game session with my players today and a big debate emerged regarding the swallowing action of a frog. As a DM I choose how I solved the situation but I would like to know how the community can help me to understand how the rules are supposed to be a applied in that case
Here's a little context: A druid player summons 8 giant frogs and commands them to attack an opponent creature that is a S size creature. 3 players had their own way to interpret the chart.
According to player A: The frog can try to use the Swallowing action anytime they want as this action, requires to make a Bite attack at the beginning of this action.
According to Player B: The Swallowing action can only be used if a previous Bite action hit the opponnent creature during a previous turn and that this creature failed trying to escape (during its own turn). Once the turn order gets back to the frog, it can use the swallowing action that implies to use Bite a second time on the target.
According to Player C: The Bite action allows the opponent creature to immediately try to escape (during the frog's turn) and if it fails, the swallowing action can occur.
As a DM, I also have 2 other questions:
Can the swallowed creature try to escape from the Frog's stomach and how ? According to the chart, the swallowed creature takes damages every turn it spends inside the frog's stomach but that's all. Like, when it's swallowed and there's no ally to kill the frog, it's just a long death and you can't do anything about it. If the frog swallows a creature (no matter how many LP it has) it just dies "cause it has no way to get out. That seems way too strong for me.
If 2 or more frogs succeeded to hit the same target with the bite action. How do you resolve the swallowing action ? The target is grappled, fine, but how do you make the target to get in a frog's mouth then. If the target has 2 or more frog tongues that grapple it how could it be swallowed by one frog, that would make no physical sense.
I hope some of you could help me understand how to resolve this chart understanding issue 'cause it's been a little issue during my session.
[...] According to Player B: The Swallowing action can only be used if a previous Bite action hit the opponnent creature during a previous turn and that this creature failed trying to escape (during its own turn). Once the turn order gets back to the frog, it can use the swallowing action that implies to use Bite a second time on the target. [...]
Yes, the Giant Frog needs to use its Bite attack to grapple the target. On its next turn, it can Swallow the target after using Bite again.
Swallow. The frog makes one bite attack against a Small or smaller target it is grappling. If the attack hits, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends.
[...] Can the swallowed creature try to escape from the Frog's stomach and how ? According to the chart, the swallowed creature takes damages every turn it spends inside the frog's stomach but that's all. Like, when it's swallowed and there's no ally to kill the frog, it's just a long death and you can't do anything about it. If the frog swallows a creature (no matter how many LP it has) it just dies "cause it has no way to get out. That seems way too strong for me.
If the target is swallowed, the grapple ends. While swallowed, the target is blinded and restrained. It can still attack the Giant Front from inside, but all attack rolls are made with Disadvantage.
If 2 or more frogs succeeded to hit the same target with the bite action. How do you resolve the swallowing action ? The target is grappled, fine, but how do you make the target to get in a frog's mouth then. If the target has 2 or more frog tongues that grapple it how could it be swallowed by one frog, that would make no physical sense.
The first Giant Frog that decides to swallow the target on its next turn wins :D
I personally think that player B holds the correct answer of interpreting the RAW.
To answer your other 2 questions:
1) RAW, only by killing the frog from the outside. Doesn't look that strong to me considering its medium HP is 18. You can house-rule it however you prefer though, you're the DM!
2) Uhm, that's actually pretty interesting. I honestly don't know what would be the most correct way of handling it. I'd go for the one with the highest initiative, assuming that they grappled the same target on the previous turn. And maybe find a narrative excuse!
I personally think that player B holds the correct answer of interpreting the RAW.
To answer your other 2 questions:
1) RAW, only by killing the frog from the outside. Doesn't look that strong to me considering its medium HP is 18. You can house-rule it however you prefer though, you're the DM!
2) Uhm, that's actually pretty interesting. I honestly don't know what would be the most correct way of handling it. I'd go for the one with the highest initiative, assuming that they grappled the same target on the previous turn. And maybe find a narrative excuse!
EDIT: Just, when it's the turn of one of the two Giant Toads that succeeded with Bite on the previous turn, if it chooses to Swallow, then that's it, so the other Giant Toad simply loses the grappled creature.
Round 1: Bite + Grapple + restrained automatically on a hit. Round 2: if a target is still restrained by the frog (they didn't break free), attack again with Bite and if it hits the target is swallowed. Round 3: the target can attack the frog from the inside with DisAdv on their attacks.
Re: Multiple Frogs at once.
If the Frogs are working together then they can voluntarily release a target if the target is swallowed by a different frog. If the Frogs are competing with each other over food, then use a contested ability check (probably STR) to determine which one keeps a hold of the target.
[...] Can the swallowed creature try to escape from the Frog's stomach and how ? According to the chart, the swallowed creature takes damages every turn it spends inside the frog's stomach but that's all. Like, when it's swallowed and there's no ally to kill the frog, it's just a long death and you can't do anything about it. If the frog swallows a creature (no matter how many LP it has) it just dies "cause it has no way to get out. That seems way too strong for me.
If the target is swallowed, the grapple ends. While swallowed, the target is blinded and restrained. It can still attack the Giant Front from inside, but all attack rolls are made with Disadvantage.
Answering myself: technically, probably not, since the creature can't see you, so no Advantage or Disadvantage.
Unseen Attackers and Targets
When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you miss.
When a creature can’t see you, you have Advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
Players A, B and C are all incorrect in their interpretations.
To make a long story short, the Bite action and the Swallow action are both their own separate action. The Giant Frog does not have any sort of multi-attack. It is only able to take one action on its turn.
To Player A: No. The Swallow action does not require a Bite action at the beginning of the action. They are two separate actions. The Giant Frog must choose at most one action to take on its turn. If it is not currently grappling any creature, then the Swallow action is unavailable since that is a prerequisite for that action.
To Player B: "Once the turn order gets back to the frog, it can use the swallowing action that implies to use Bite a second time on the target."
. . . No. Taking the Swallow action does not imply also taking the Bite action a second time. The Giant Frog must choose at most one action to take on its turn. If it is currently grappling a small or smaller creature because of a successful Bite action on a previous turn, then both the Bite action and the Swallow action are currently available. The Giant Frog can do one or the other on its current turn but not both. If the Swallow action is taken, there is no immediate damage. Damage is applied at the end of the Giant Frog's next turn.
To Player C: No. The target creature does not get to attempt to immediately escape during the Giant Frog's turn. It's not a Saving Throw. The Grappled condition is automatically successfully applied on a hit. However, the Swallow action cannot then immediately occur. The Giant Frog has no more actions to use if it just used the Bite action on this current turn. It must wait until its next turn to attempt to Swallow the creature if that creature is still Grappled at that time.
Question 1: The target Swallowed creature cannot attempt to escape from the Giant Frog's stomach. There are two ways that it can become no longer located inside the Giant Frog's stomach. First, the Giant Frog could die. Second, after the Giant Frog's next turn, it will automatically damage this target and then immediately disgorge that target creature.
The target creature does NOT take damage "every" turn until killed. Instead, it takes damage exactly once and then the Frog disgorges the creature.
Question 2: Forced movement away from the grappler generally ends a grapple. If we do not rule that the distance between the grappler and the grappled has exceeded the distance to maintain the grapple, then it does get a little weird. But the Swallow action does say these two things: "While swallowed, the target isn’t Grappled" and "it has Total Cover against attacks and other effects outside the frog". Either of these could be considered to be rules which explicitly end (or "counter") the Grappled condition on the Grappled creature from all sources.
Round 2: if a target is still restrained by the frog (they didn't break free), attack again with Bite and if it hits the target is swallowed.
This isn't how it works. Bite and Swallow are two separate actions. The Giant Frog can only do one or the other on its turn. If circumstances allow for it to choose the Swallow action and it does choose the Swallow action, then there is no Bite involved, and no damage is immediately dealt. Instead, the Swallow mechanic is an auto-success and eventually damage will be (auto-successfully) dealt at the end of the Frog's next turn if the Frog has not been killed before that happens.
Round 2: if a target is still restrained by the frog (they didn't break free), attack again with Bite and if it hits the target is swallowed.
This isn't how it works. Bite and Swallow are two separate actions. The Giant Frog can only do one or the other on its turn. If circumstances allow for it to choose the Swallow action and it does choose the Swallow action, then there is no Bite involved, and no damage is immediately dealt. Instead, the Swallow mechanic is an auto-success and eventually damage will be (auto-successfully) dealt at the end of the Frog's next turn if the Frog has not been killed before that happens.
Not in this case. This is the exact wording for 2024 Giant Frog
Swallow. The frog makes one bite attack against a Small or smaller target it is grappling. If the attack hits, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends.
For the Giant Frog the Swallow requires another bite attack, and the swallow is only successful if the bite hits.
For Swallow abilities you have to read the specifics for that monster because they don't all work the same.
Ok, perhaps something weird is going on. Does anyone know if some of these monsters had recent errata? Because when I look up the Giant Frog here on D&D Beyond, I get this:
Actions
Bite.Melee Attack Roll: +3, reach 5 ft. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) Piercing damage. If the target is a Medium or smaller creature, it has the Grappled condition (escape DC 11).
Swallow. The frog swallows a Small or smaller target it is grappling. While swallowed, the target isn’t Grappled but has the Blinded and Restrained conditions, and it has Total Cover against attacks and other effects outside the frog. While swallowing the target, the frog can’t use Bite, and if the frog dies, the swallowed target is no longer Restrained and can escape from the corpse using 5 feet of movement, exiting with the Prone condition.
At the end of the frog’s next turn, the swallowed target takes 5 (2d4) Acid damage. If that damage doesn’t kill it, the frog disgorges it, causing it to exit Prone.
Ok, perhaps something weird is going on. Does anyone know if some of these monsters had recent errata? Because when I look up the Giant Frog here on D&D Beyond, I get this:
Actions
Bite.Melee Attack Roll: +3, reach 5 ft. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) Piercing damage. If the target is a Medium or smaller creature, it has the Grappled condition (escape DC 11).
Swallow. The frog swallows a Small or smaller target it is grappling. While swallowed, the target isn’t Grappled but has the Blinded and Restrained conditions, and it has Total Cover against attacks and other effects outside the frog. While swallowing the target, the frog can’t use Bite, and if the frog dies, the swallowed target is no longer Restrained and can escape from the corpse using 5 feet of movement, exiting with the Prone condition.
At the end of the frog’s next turn, the swallowed target takes 5 (2d4) Acid damage. If that damage doesn’t kill it, the frog disgorges it, causing it to exit Prone.
This is the Giant Frog stat bloc from the 2024 MM. The one that @Plaguescarred linked to above is the 2014 version.
Yeah, the OP is using the 2014 version of this monster, so the player B was right @up2ng. The original post had a link to an external source, but it was removed because it pointed to a piracy site.
I've also edited my answer to include how Swallow works for the 2014 Giant Frog.
A Giant Frog can take the Swallow action anytime after it grappled a target and can take an action again, which can be on any subsequent turn.
A swallowed creature can escape when the frog dies. No other way is provided in the statblock.
If 2 or more frogs have grappled the same creature, the first to Swallow it will end the grapple from the other.
I'd rule differently. If two giant frogs grapple the same human, the frogs roll against each other, and the winner swallows both the human and the other frog. Then, inside the first frog, the human rolls against the second frog to see if he - or she - get's double swallowed.
Yes, I'm trying to be funny.
One can hope that this situation comes up rarely enough to be mostly irrelevant. On the other hand, in swamps, it may be common enough to warrant the next logical step: What happens if three frogs grapple the same human. It becomes a whole matryoshka doll thing. How many frogs need to go inside each other before the innermost frog is compressed enough to collapse into a black whole? Swamp travellers beware.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I* have done the world in general, and science in particular, a favor and calculated the requirements for the Frogularity. It turns out that it takes 10^24 frogs. You're welcome =D
* Obviously, I didn't calculate any such thing, I don't do numbers. GPT did the numbers. I just do ... this.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
A Giant Frog can take the Swallow action anytime after it grappled a target and can take an action again, which can be on any subsequent turn.
A swallowed creature can escape when the frog dies. No other way is provided in the statblock.
If 2 or more frogs have grappled the same creature, the first to Swallow it will end the grapple from the other.
I'd rule differently. If two giant frogs grapple the same human, the frogs roll against each other, and the winner swallows both the human and the other frog. Then, inside the first frog, the human rolls against the second frog to see if he - or she - get's double swallowed.
Yes, I'm trying to be funny.
One can hope that this situation comes up rarely enough to be mostly irrelevant. On the other hand, in swamps, it may be common enough to warrant the next logical step: What happens if three frogs grapple the same human. It becomes a whole matryoshka doll thing. How many frogs need to go inside each other before the innermost frog is compressed enough to collapse into a black whole? Swamp travellers beware.
The frog can have only one target swallowed at a time, so it couldn't swallows both the human and the other frog.
The frog can have only one target swallowed at a time, so it couldn't swallows both the human and the other frog.
I think you're missing the point. But I'm sure you're not wrong =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
And I mean ... technically, each frog is swallowing just one creature: A frog. That frog just happens to also have another frog inside it (except the first one, which get's the human instead). I don't think the rules cover this. We just need a swamp with 2.02 quadrillion giant frogs to make this work.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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Hello there !
So, I had a game session with my players today and a big debate emerged regarding the swallowing action of a frog. As a DM I choose how I solved the situation but I would like to know how the community can help me to understand how the rules are supposed to be a applied in that case
Here's a little context: A druid player summons 8 giant frogs and commands them to attack an opponent creature that is a S size creature. 3 players had their own way to interpret the chart.
According to player A: The frog can try to use the Swallowing action anytime they want as this action, requires to make a Bite attack at the beginning of this action.
According to Player B: The Swallowing action can only be used if a previous Bite action hit the opponnent creature during a previous turn and that this creature failed trying to escape (during its own turn). Once the turn order gets back to the frog, it can use the swallowing action that implies to use Bite a second time on the target.
According to Player C: The Bite action allows the opponent creature to immediately try to escape (during the frog's turn) and if it fails, the swallowing action can occur.
As a DM, I also have 2 other questions:
Can the swallowed creature try to escape from the Frog's stomach and how ? According to the chart, the swallowed creature takes damages every turn it spends inside the frog's stomach but that's all. Like, when it's swallowed and there's no ally to kill the frog, it's just a long death and you can't do anything about it. If the frog swallows a creature (no matter how many LP it has) it just dies "cause it has no way to get out. That seems way too strong for me.
If 2 or more frogs succeeded to hit the same target with the bite action. How do you resolve the swallowing action ? The target is grappled, fine, but how do you make the target to get in a frog's mouth then. If the target has 2 or more frog tongues that grapple it how could it be swallowed by one frog, that would make no physical sense.
I hope some of you could help me understand how to resolve this chart understanding issue 'cause it's been a little issue during my session.
A Giant Frog can take the Swallow action anytime after it grappled a target and can take an action again, which can be on any subsequent turn.
A swallowed creature can escape when the frog dies. No other way is provided in the statblock.
If 2 or more frogs have grappled the same creature, the first to Swallow it will end the grapple from the other.
Yes, the Giant Frog needs to use its Bite attack to grapple the target. On its next turn, it can Swallow the target after using Bite again.
If the target is swallowed, the grapple ends. While swallowed, the target is blinded and restrained. It can still attack the Giant Front from inside, but all attack rolls are made with Disadvantage.
The first Giant Frog that decides to swallow the target on its next turn wins :D
EDIT: ninja'd by Plaguescarred!
EDIT2: for clarity.
I personally think that player B holds the correct answer of interpreting the RAW.
To answer your other 2 questions:
1) RAW, only by killing the frog from the outside. Doesn't look that strong to me considering its medium HP is 18. You can house-rule it however you prefer though, you're the DM!
2) Uhm, that's actually pretty interesting. I honestly don't know what would be the most correct way of handling it. I'd go for the one with the highest initiative, assuming that they grappled the same target on the previous turn. And maybe find a narrative excuse!
Why only from the outside?
EDIT: Just, when it's the turn of one of the two Giant Toads that succeeded with Bite on the previous turn, if it chooses to Swallow, then that's it, so the other Giant Toad simply loses the grappled creature.
The above are correct Giant Frogs:
Round 1: Bite + Grapple + restrained automatically on a hit.
Round 2: if a target is still restrained by the frog (they didn't break free), attack again with Bite and if it hits the target is swallowed.
Round 3: the target can attack the frog from the inside with DisAdv on their attacks.
Re: Multiple Frogs at once.
If the Frogs are working together then they can voluntarily release a target if the target is swallowed by a different frog.
If the Frogs are competing with each other over food, then use a contested ability check (probably STR) to determine which one keeps a hold of the target.
Answering myself: technically, probably not, since the creature can't see you, so no Advantage or Disadvantage.
Players A, B and C are all incorrect in their interpretations.
To make a long story short, the Bite action and the Swallow action are both their own separate action. The Giant Frog does not have any sort of multi-attack. It is only able to take one action on its turn.
To Player A: No. The Swallow action does not require a Bite action at the beginning of the action. They are two separate actions. The Giant Frog must choose at most one action to take on its turn. If it is not currently grappling any creature, then the Swallow action is unavailable since that is a prerequisite for that action.
To Player B: "Once the turn order gets back to the frog, it can use the swallowing action that implies to use Bite a second time on the target."
. . . No. Taking the Swallow action does not imply also taking the Bite action a second time. The Giant Frog must choose at most one action to take on its turn. If it is currently grappling a small or smaller creature because of a successful Bite action on a previous turn, then both the Bite action and the Swallow action are currently available. The Giant Frog can do one or the other on its current turn but not both. If the Swallow action is taken, there is no immediate damage. Damage is applied at the end of the Giant Frog's next turn.
To Player C: No. The target creature does not get to attempt to immediately escape during the Giant Frog's turn. It's not a Saving Throw. The Grappled condition is automatically successfully applied on a hit. However, the Swallow action cannot then immediately occur. The Giant Frog has no more actions to use if it just used the Bite action on this current turn. It must wait until its next turn to attempt to Swallow the creature if that creature is still Grappled at that time.
Question 1: The target Swallowed creature cannot attempt to escape from the Giant Frog's stomach. There are two ways that it can become no longer located inside the Giant Frog's stomach. First, the Giant Frog could die. Second, after the Giant Frog's next turn, it will automatically damage this target and then immediately disgorge that target creature.
The target creature does NOT take damage "every" turn until killed. Instead, it takes damage exactly once and then the Frog disgorges the creature.
Question 2: Forced movement away from the grappler generally ends a grapple. If we do not rule that the distance between the grappler and the grappled has exceeded the distance to maintain the grapple, then it does get a little weird. But the Swallow action does say these two things: "While swallowed, the target isn’t Grappled" and "it has Total Cover against attacks and other effects outside the frog". Either of these could be considered to be rules which explicitly end (or "counter") the Grappled condition on the Grappled creature from all sources.
This isn't how it works. Bite and Swallow are two separate actions. The Giant Frog can only do one or the other on its turn. If circumstances allow for it to choose the Swallow action and it does choose the Swallow action, then there is no Bite involved, and no damage is immediately dealt. Instead, the Swallow mechanic is an auto-success and eventually damage will be (auto-successfully) dealt at the end of the Frog's next turn if the Frog has not been killed before that happens.
Not in this case. This is the exact wording for 2024 Giant Frog
For the Giant Frog the Swallow requires another bite attack, and the swallow is only successful if the bite hits.
For Swallow abilities you have to read the specifics for that monster because they don't all work the same.
Ok, perhaps something weird is going on. Does anyone know if some of these monsters had recent errata? Because when I look up the Giant Frog here on D&D Beyond, I get this:
It's probably a 2024 vs 2014 rules thing.
This is the Giant Frog stat bloc from the 2024 MM. The one that @Plaguescarred linked to above is the 2014 version.
Yeah, the OP is using the 2014 version of this monster, so the player B was right @up2ng. The original post had a link to an external source, but it was removed because it pointed to a piracy site.
I've also edited my answer to include how Swallow works for the 2014 Giant Frog.
I'd rule differently. If two giant frogs grapple the same human, the frogs roll against each other, and the winner swallows both the human and the other frog. Then, inside the first frog, the human rolls against the second frog to see if he - or she - get's double swallowed.
Yes, I'm trying to be funny.
One can hope that this situation comes up rarely enough to be mostly irrelevant. On the other hand, in swamps, it may be common enough to warrant the next logical step: What happens if three frogs grapple the same human. It becomes a whole matryoshka doll thing. How many frogs need to go inside each other before the innermost frog is compressed enough to collapse into a black whole? Swamp travellers beware.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
OP used 2014 Giant Frog and provided a link to it that was taken down shortly after but i had time to see it and know which version.
I* have done the world in general, and science in particular, a favor and calculated the requirements for the Frogularity. It turns out that it takes 10^24 frogs. You're welcome =D
* Obviously, I didn't calculate any such thing, I don't do numbers. GPT did the numbers. I just do ... this.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The frog can have only one target swallowed at a time, so it couldn't swallows both the human and the other frog.
I think you're missing the point. But I'm sure you're not wrong =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I get its legal for froganized play event! ☺
And I mean ... technically, each frog is swallowing just one creature: A frog. That frog just happens to also have another frog inside it (except the first one, which get's the human instead). I don't think the rules cover this. We just need a swamp with 2.02 quadrillion giant frogs to make this work.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.