Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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The rules say the DM determines when combat starts and initiative is rolled. Why would you decide combat has started while one side is unaware the other side is taking hostile action?
The relevant text from the 2024 DMG is:
I am going to agree with Squirreloid that this text supports his position that the DM determines when combat starts and when Initiative is rolled is correct. Now, because the DM makes this determination, different DMs can have their own positions, and so choosing to roll initiative the second someone takes an action which could start combat is also valid, even if it means the surprised party could roll above the attacker despite disadvantage.
Even though either method is valid by the rules, I also agree with Squirreloid that a good Initiative roll should not negate a failure to perceive the threat, and that surprised people acting in reaction to an event which has not happened does not make sense. That could result in things such as an unaware person who was the target of a hidden assassin using their action and movement to get to total cover before the assassin can take the shot which triggered initiative. Thus the assassin would not take the shot, so there would be nothing to trigger the initiative roll in the first place.
EDIT: And if the assassin in this case is a PC going for an NPC, imagine how the player would feel if after carefully planning their attack and being undetected, the DM told the player that their target "suddenly got an instinctive feeling" and arbitrarily dashed out of sight before the attack roll even happens due to a poor initiative roll.
What you are describing here is not actually the surprise mechanic for the game. That is a named feature of the Invisible condition which could have been called anything but just happens to be named "surprise". You are not required to actually surprise an enemy in order to take advantage of this feature.
Because everyone rolls Initiative when combat start and If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll.
5.5E purposefully did away with free turn during Surprise where only one side can act as explained in Converting to SRD v5.2.1.
In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll as stated in the DMG.
Granting free action before Initiative is rolled and everyone take turns is not supported by the rules but was even counterindicated by Devs.
DM can of course rule otherwise but it makes Surprise more powerful than intended.
I don't believe the suggestion was for one entire side to act before the other side. Nor is the intention to completely throw out the 5.5e surprise rules. Those work fine in most instances.
The sticking point is about a case where an ambusher is completely undetected by an opposing side. There is a mathematical possibility that even with advantage an ambusher could roll below someone on the opposing side who has disadvantage. I gave an example of an scenario above where allowing the ambushee to act first could prevent the ambusher from taking the action which initiated combat and prompted the initiative roll.
And that's not a problem.
If your players can separate player and character knowledge, then you can trust them to act appropriately. (I will state that using the meta-knowledge that they're in combat to ready an action that they will take if attacked to represent how their character will reflexively act if caught by surprise is an entirely reasonable thing to do.)
If they can't, then:
And the combat rules are still outside the narrative.
The two scenarios are fundamentally different.
If the dominate person is all that's being done, then no, you don't need to be in combat time. If it's part of a larger assault, then yes, you do.
With the fireball, unless you have your players positioned on a combat map at all times (in which case you're living half in the combat rules anyway), you need to break out the combat rules for positioning reasons. It's also an ideal example of why they changed the initiative rules, because a high-rolling caster will get to fireball the party twice before they can scatter.
You've argued this in a previous go-around, and it remains bizarre. You, the DM, are absolutely allowed to know what spell is being cast and decide whether or not it's going to blow up unto combat, and invoke the combat rules if you need to. You can do this even if nothing is going to happen until what turns out to be the last action of the first round, because the caster rolled 1.
If you're in a situation where any spellcasting will cause †he situation to blow up, then there's a good chance that you should already be in combat time, because it's likely one where things are tense, and people are maneuvering for advantage should things go south. Nothing's wrong with running the tense negotiations with the dockside gang in combat time, even if it may end with no attack rolls being made. It lets the players know that this could get real at any time, and also means you don't have to adjudicate positioning after the fact of combat has been established.
Yes, if you're fighting a creature, you're in combat with it. But "the combat rules have been brought into play" is not the same thing. Combat, the game mechanic != combat, the colloquial English meaning.
One can (and likely should) invoke the combat rules for any situation where sequencing of actions and movement is important, even if there is no enemy on the field. In 5.5, one also invokes it when bringing the surprise rules into play. Whether casting charm person is appropriate for that is situational, and it still doesn't imply you're fighting the target yet. "Combat rules mean everybody knows they're in a fight, and with who" is a you thing; it is not inherent in the rules.
Having been on both sides of an ambush (training & combat), it is possible for the "ambushee/victim" to act 1st in spite of the planning of the "ambusher/assassin". Probably a bit more common then the mathematical probability that dice provide.
Some reasons:
Experience disparity between the two sides. The lowest experienced humanoid can give away that ambush site. It only takes one individual to blow it.
Local terrain knowledge by the "ambushee/victim" who knows locations (could be historical occurrences) on the trail to pay closer attention when they approach likely sites.
The ambushers make a noise/light/reflection/etc. that gives the "ambushee/victim" a split second warning.
The "ambushee/victim" is paranoid and always expects an ambush.
The ambushers due to X are tired and nod off for that critical second or two (X can be tired from planning/moving into position/waiting so long for target to move past/etc.)
If it is an assassination attempt, depending on location/where; the assassin just blew it when taking/step forward.
There was a flaw in the plan and/or someone knew the plan and betrayed the party.
An animal crossed paths and that in itself created a warning. Remember any (silent) movement itself can betray an ambusher. (swatting at bugs/needing to roll over/having to relive bladder/etc.)
Emphasis on the bold. Everyone rolls initiative when combat starts, not before combat starts. But nothing requires or compels you to start combat before the first spell or attack roll. If one side is entirely unaware that combat is about to start, they're entirely unaware. Combat doesn't start until they're aware of the enemy, which would be after the first attack or offensive spell -- then you roll initiative. The first round of combat only starts after that event. There is no sense in which they are 'in combat' before they're aware there are enemy combatants.
And if the subtle fireball exploding in their face surprised them (which it probably did), they have disadvantage on that initiative roll.
(Obviously if they're aware of the enemy, and that they are an enemy, combat might start well before anyone makes an attack or casts an offensive spell. Awareness of hostility is the key discriminant.)
I just of an example, A squirrel (deer/etc.) walks across the path, then stops and retreats. That allows the "ambushee/victim" to look at the ambushers location and gives them a split second heads up.
If the DM knows everyone's Initiative, he can easily set the scene before revealing who goes 1st.
All of that is handled by perception/stealth, not initiative. The assumption here is the ambushers are not detected.
I agree that one shouldn't let a lucky initiative roll override a bad perception check to detect an ambush, but...
Whether it's appropriate for a character who rolls higher in initiative than the ambusher to act meaningfully depends on the ambush circumstances.
And none of these circumstances mean you can't roll initiative before.
You seem to be writing in contradictions. You appeared to write that you did not understand how the "ambushee/victim" can go 1st using their initiative.
Is initiative fixed based on perception/stealth, if so why allow a roll (of initiative) to supersede the perception/stealth roll?
It seems that the perception/stealth rolls set the odds (advantage/disadvantage) and determine the timeline. Initiative gives the "ambushee/victim" a split second last second chance to notice the ambush. Which does happen to be very realistic