Yes, a PC might go before an enemy they don't know is there, but (as always) what they can actually do on their turn is limited by the information they have at the time. Attacking someone you can't see incurs disadvantage, and you can't attack someone at all if you don't even know they exist.
The things I don't like about this are that 1. A lucky character could throw up their defenses like casting mage armor or something to give them temporary hit points without actually spotting that there was any reason to which I feel is just metagaming in disguise, OR the character who was lucky and rolled a super good initiative gets bypassed in the first round of combat entirely as there is no way to go on delay in this edition as I read the rules. Which would mean if they chose not to metagame and just continued walking down the trail or whatever they wouldn't get to act in the first round. That doesn't feel like a good way to resolve a super good roll.
Quote from Plaguescarred>> I also generally prefer some randomness, except when i don't want surprised creature to act before hidden creature ambush them. In this case, i preferInitiative Scoreover arbitrarily establishing initiative order myself.
The Delay action is gone since 2014 now Ready is the only way to postpone actions.
I suspect I will also house rule that back in. The lack of this ability seems very limiting to me. It was a great way for someone high in the initiative to just say 'I don't want to act yet' but not necessarily lose out on acting during that round. It was also handy on the occasions where someone was called away from the table for an important phone call or something. I don't seen any narrative rationale for not being able to say 'after x goes I will jump in'. It also was honestly not complicated at all to work with.
I also generally prefer some randomness, except when i don't want surprised creature to act before hidden creature ambush them. In this case, i preferInitiative Scoreover arbitrarily establishing initiative order myself.
I figure just having the ambushers go first and then letting the victims of the ambush go on rolled initiative will probably be the best way to go as it stays consistent (ie not switching back and forth between rolled initiative and initiative score) and would mean the victims of the ambush would not be in the same order every ambush. It also works well if one character decides to haul off and start combat without warning anyone. They go first, then everyone else goes on rolled initiative wither ally or foe.
I am really struggling to understand why the game designers made this choice. It really feels like they shoehorned Advantage/Disadvantage in for the sake of utilizing the mechanic where they were not needed.
"Presumably, the enemies start their attack, but because that PC is so alert, they see it coming before the bandits actually get an attack off." Except that narrative doesn't work as well when the PC just rolled a 1 on their perception to spot the ambush.
The thing you have to remember is that everything in a combat round is essentially happening simultaneously, within the same six-second period. Doing rounds in sequence is just to make it easier mechanically. A PC going first on the first round, even when they've been surprised, just means their reflexes were a tiny bit quicker, or they were a tiny bit paranoid and expecting danger, or whatever
If they want to burn a 5th-level spell slot to cast wall of force, before they know the nature of the threat or even where it's coming from, good luck to them
DM: OK, everyone roll for initiative Party: What??? Oh crap, OK Wizard: Ha! Nat 20 DM: OK, you're up first Wizard: Do I see what's attacking us? DM: You already beefed your Perception check when you walked in Wizard: Right, right. Fine, screw it. I cast Wall of Force and create a dome around us DM: Huh, interesting. OK. Next up is the gelatinous cube you failed you notice, and which you've now trapped yourself inside a dome with...
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"Presumably, the enemies start their attack, but because that PC is so alert, they see it coming before the bandits actually get an attack off." Except that narrative doesn't work as well when the PC just rolled a 1 on their perception to spot the ambush.
The thing you have to remember is that everything in a combat round is essentially happening simultaneously, within the same six-second period. Doing rounds in sequence is just to make it easier mechanically. A PC going first on the first round, even when they've been surprised, just means their reflexes were a tiny bit quicker, or they were a tiny bit paranoid and expecting danger, or whatever
If they want to burn a 5th-level spell slot to cast wall of force, before they know the nature of the threat or even where it's coming from, good luck to them
DM: OK, everyone roll for initiative Party: What??? Oh crap, OK Wizard: Ha! Nat 20 DM: OK, you're up first Wizard: Do I see what's attacking us? DM: You already beefed your Perception check when you walked in Wizard: Right, right. Fine, screw it. I cast Wall of Force and create a dome around us DM: Huh, interesting. OK. Next up is the gelatinous cube you failed you notice, and which you've now trapped yourself inside a dome with...
I still find that very problematic. The surprised party (PC or NPCs by the PCs) gets an opportunity to prep for combat when they have no idea what is coming. Yes technically it is all happening at once but mechanically people are moving out of the way and allowing others to then go through that space etc. It also would mean the very lucky character who rolled the double nat 20 on initiative would be at a significant disadvantage mechanically. There is very little they could actually do going before the threat is revealed so without a delay action existing they basically get skipped during the first round as a 'reward' for rolling well. Or they have to blow some prep spell like wall of force not knowing how serious the threat is. Also, there very much are things like wall of force that could really throw off the vast majority of threats. I would feel like the PCs were cheated if they did all kinds of prep to sneak up on a BBEG, succeed and then the BBEG rolled well and Dimension Doored away or threw up a wall of force or whatever based on initiative. Obviously as a DM you could always fudge that but it doesn't seem like something the RAW should entertain at all. It really feels like strait up metagaming written in to the rules.
It really feels like strait up metagaming written in to the rules.
By definition, that is impossible. If the DM has the BBEG Dimension Door away before the BBEG can know what they are threatened by, that's on the DM, not the rules
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A simple way for DM to ensure a invisible creature acts before surprised one is to useInitiative Scoreinstead of rolling;
Ambusher: 15 + DEX mod
Surprised: 05 + DEX mod
True but of course that puts the party in the same initiative amongst themselves at all times. Personally I like a little randomness in initiative though D20+DEX Mod is a little on the too random side IMO. A difference of 10 would almost always guarantee the ambushing party went first though. Still not convinced this is in any way a good design for how to handle surprise. And I am still a bit surprised their is no mention of being able to go on delay in this edition. That seems very basic as well.
I'd say the rule posted by Plaguescarred (*) is an evolution of the variant option from the 2014 DMG: Initiative Score, which has the predictable advice: "[...] you can speed your game up considerably—at the cost of an initiative order that is often predictable."
(*) not sure if it's just me, but the link isn't working in my case :( Let me reproduce the rule here:
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. The combat rules in “Playing the Game” explain how to roll Initiative.
Sometimes a DM might have combatants use their Initiative scores instead of rolling Initiative. Your Initiative score equals 10 plus your Dexterity modifier. If you have Advantage on Initiative rolls, increase your Initiative score by 5. If you have Disadvantage on those rolls, decrease that score by 5. See also “Playing the Game” (“Combat”).
It also would mean the very lucky character who rolled the double nat 20 on initiative would be at a significant disadvantage mechanically. There is very little they could actually do going before the threat is revealed so without a delay action existing they basically get skipped during the first round as a 'reward' for rolling well.
Sorry, but I am not quite understanding this concept or even logic. How are they at any mechanical disadvantage?
Round 0:
20 initiative, Player A does nothing as they do not sense/discern/know about the ambush
15 initiative, bad guys attack and spring ambush
10 initiative, Player B attacks
Round 1:
20 initiative, Player A attacks
15 initiative, bad guys attacks
So starting with the ambush, the bad guys have 2 attacks the Players have 1 attack, so what is the difference if the player had a 20 or a 14 initiative? The party all have the same number of attacks against the bad guys.
If you swap bad guys have a 20 & player A has a 15, there is no change. when comparing Player A with Player B.
Similar to an automobile race on an oval. The leaders/top half (e.g. highest initiative) pit. They come back from pitting and are now in the bottom half. But the bottom half (e.g. initiative #) have to pit as well, when the bottom pit the standings return to the same just like before everyone pitted. The highest initiative is still the 1st to go, however the ambush just changed the perception of when you start counting
It also would mean the very lucky character who rolled the double nat 20 on initiative would be at a significant disadvantage mechanically. There is very little they could actually do going before the threat is revealed so without a delay action existing they basically get skipped during the first round as a 'reward' for rolling well.
Sorry, but I am not quite understanding this concept or even logic. How are they at any mechanical disadvantage?
Round 0:
20 initiative, Player A does nothing as they do not sense/discern/know about the ambush
15 initiative, bad guys attack and spring ambush
10 initiative, Player B attacks
Round 1:
20 initiative, Player A attacks
15 initiative, bad guys attacks
So starting with the ambush, the bad guys have 2 attacks the Players have 1 attack, so what is the difference if the player had a 20 or a 14 initiative? The party all have the same number of attacks against the bad guys.
If you swap bad guys have a 20 & player A has a 15, there is no change. when comparing Player A with Player B.
Similar to an automobile race on an oval. The leaders/top half (e.g. highest initiative) pit. They come back from pitting and are now in the bottom half. But the bottom half (e.g. initiative #) have to pit as well, when the bottom pit the standings return to the same just like before everyone pitted. The highest initiative is still the 1st to go, however the ambush just changed the perception of when you start counting
In this example, Player A has only one opportunity (in those two rounds) to attack the badguys. If Player A had rolled a 14 for Initiative, they'd have two opportunities to attack the badguys in that same time.
But that is why I am saying this is a false perception and the player still has the same number of attacks, but you have to start at a different point. Player A still can attack his 2nd time before the bad guys can attack for a 3rd. That is what evens it up, the start of the 3rd is the even point. Not the start of the end of the 2nd.
It also would mean the very lucky character who rolled the double nat 20 on initiative would be at a significant disadvantage mechanically. There is very little they could actually do going before the threat is revealed so without a delay action existing they basically get skipped during the first round as a 'reward' for rolling well.
Sorry, but I am not quite understanding this concept or even logic. How are they at any mechanical disadvantage?
Round 0:
20 initiative, Player A does nothing as they do not sense/discern/know about the ambush
15 initiative, bad guys attack and spring ambush
10 initiative, Player B attacks
Round 1:
20 initiative, Player A attacks
15 initiative, bad guys attacks
So starting with the ambush, the bad guys have 2 attacks the Players have 1 attack, so what is the difference if the player had a 20 or a 14 initiative? The party all have the same number of attacks against the bad guys.
If you swap bad guys have a 20 & player A has a 15, there is no change. when comparing Player A with Player B.
Similar to an automobile race on an oval. The leaders/top half (e.g. highest initiative) pit. They come back from pitting and are now in the bottom half. But the bottom half (e.g. initiative #) have to pit as well, when the bottom pit the standings return to the same just like before everyone pitted. The highest initiative is still the 1st to go, however the ambush just changed the perception of when you start counting
They are at a disadvantage IMO because player A effectively goes LAST instead of first after the ambush is sprung. During round 0 as you note they can't do much as they don't know what the threat is. So they are very limited. And they don't really get to counter attack until after all the other players have gone and it is the top of round 1. IMO it should go: Bad guy spring trap 20 initiative, player A goes 10 initiative, player B goes 5 initiative, player C goes Etc... Back to bad guys
Effectively what you have is: A does nothing because the character doesn't know what is happening (or metagames and has limited options like dodging) Bad guy spring trap 10 initiative, Player B goes 5 initiative, player C goes Etc... 20 initiative, Player A goes Back to bad guys
That is a crappy reward/feeling for the person who rolled a 20 initiative despite disadvantage IMO. They are very much going to *feel* like they are going last not first. And I don't think players at the table are going to see this as 'correct' or 'reasonable' or 'logical'. IF they could go on delay until at least the first bad guy acted it would be fine, because of course they would get the option of going before player B, but without delay existing it makes no sense at all. Also if you allow delay it effectively becomes the way I described so there would be very little point in doing all the rolling with advantage vs. disadvantage, you could just allow the bad guys to spring their trap and then have everyone else roll initiative normally which saves a small amount of effort.
What I meant by at a mechanical disadvantage is that even in your example, you are saying on their official first turn A does nothing, as they don't know what is happening yet. They cannot run up to the bad guys and attack, at most they get to do a buff, doge, or try to reposition themselves completely blind to the threat, all of which IMO is basically metagaming that they 'feel something coming' so strongly that they begin acting on it, exclusively because their controlling player rolled initiative not because of any perception roll result. That is what I meant by them being at a disadvantage. That first round they have very limited options even if they do act.
I have yet to see a DM rule someone wins initiative, but can't attack because somehow combat hasn't started yet.
I also have yet to see a DM rule a Rogue's sneak attack not kicking off combat when it happens, not putting the rogue into initiative to see if they get to shoot first, because as above it just doesn't make sense to anyone.
I appreciate the responses in this thread, it's a real weakness of the 2024 rules.
It really feels like strait up metagaming written in to the rules.
By definition, that is impossible. If the DM has the BBEG Dimension Door away before the BBEG can know what they are threatened by, that's on the DM, not the rules
You are conveniently ignoring the very next part of the post where I said they could throw up a wall of force which would be fairly reasonable given an unknown threat but still feels like cheating to allow when they do not actually perceive anything.
I have yet to see a DM rule someone wins initiative, but can't attack because somehow combat hasn't started yet.
The thing is... if you win initiative and don't see anyone to attack, who are you supposed to swing your sword at?
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It really feels like strait up metagaming written in to the rules.
By definition, that is impossible. If the DM has the BBEG Dimension Door away before the BBEG can know what they are threatened by, that's on the DM, not the rules
You are conveniently ignoring the very next part of the post where I said they could throw up a wall of force which would be fairly reasonable given an unknown threat but still feels like cheating to allow when they do not actually perceive anything.
No, that is in no way reasonable
If your DM asks you to roll initiative in that scenario, you have no idea why. Maybe it's for combat, against an unknown enemy that could be coming from any direction. Maybe it's for a 4e-style skills challenge or a chase. Maybe it's for something else entirely
There is basically no reason to throw up a wall of force until you know a wall of force is actually going to be useful
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I saw a DM use Passive Initiative where the PC's Dexterity check is 10 + Dex mod, but revealing it only after, basically starting the encounter with the ambushers attacking on it's turn at the top of the order.
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The things I don't like about this are that 1. A lucky character could throw up their defenses like casting mage armor or something to give them temporary hit points without actually spotting that there was any reason to which I feel is just metagaming in disguise, OR the character who was lucky and rolled a super good initiative gets bypassed in the first round of combat entirely as there is no way to go on delay in this edition as I read the rules. Which would mean if they chose not to metagame and just continued walking down the trail or whatever they wouldn't get to act in the first round. That doesn't feel like a good way to resolve a super good roll.
I suspect I will also house rule that back in. The lack of this ability seems very limiting to me. It was a great way for someone high in the initiative to just say 'I don't want to act yet' but not necessarily lose out on acting during that round. It was also handy on the occasions where someone was called away from the table for an important phone call or something.
I don't seen any narrative rationale for not being able to say 'after x goes I will jump in'. It also was honestly not complicated at all to work with.
I figure just having the ambushers go first and then letting the victims of the ambush go on rolled initiative will probably be the best way to go as it stays consistent (ie not switching back and forth between rolled initiative and initiative score) and would mean the victims of the ambush would not be in the same order every ambush.
It also works well if one character decides to haul off and start combat without warning anyone. They go first, then everyone else goes on rolled initiative wither ally or foe.
I am really struggling to understand why the game designers made this choice. It really feels like they shoehorned Advantage/Disadvantage in for the sake of utilizing the mechanic where they were not needed.
The thing you have to remember is that everything in a combat round is essentially happening simultaneously, within the same six-second period. Doing rounds in sequence is just to make it easier mechanically. A PC going first on the first round, even when they've been surprised, just means their reflexes were a tiny bit quicker, or they were a tiny bit paranoid and expecting danger, or whatever
If they want to burn a 5th-level spell slot to cast wall of force, before they know the nature of the threat or even where it's coming from, good luck to them
DM: OK, everyone roll for initiative
Party: What??? Oh crap, OK
Wizard: Ha! Nat 20
DM: OK, you're up first
Wizard: Do I see what's attacking us?
DM: You already beefed your Perception check when you walked in
Wizard: Right, right. Fine, screw it. I cast Wall of Force and create a dome around us
DM: Huh, interesting. OK. Next up is the gelatinous cube you failed you notice, and which you've now trapped yourself inside a dome with...
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I still find that very problematic. The surprised party (PC or NPCs by the PCs) gets an opportunity to prep for combat when they have no idea what is coming. Yes technically it is all happening at once but mechanically people are moving out of the way and allowing others to then go through that space etc.
It also would mean the very lucky character who rolled the double nat 20 on initiative would be at a significant disadvantage mechanically. There is very little they could actually do going before the threat is revealed so without a delay action existing they basically get skipped during the first round as a 'reward' for rolling well. Or they have to blow some prep spell like wall of force not knowing how serious the threat is.
Also, there very much are things like wall of force that could really throw off the vast majority of threats. I would feel like the PCs were cheated if they did all kinds of prep to sneak up on a BBEG, succeed and then the BBEG rolled well and Dimension Doored away or threw up a wall of force or whatever based on initiative. Obviously as a DM you could always fudge that but it doesn't seem like something the RAW should entertain at all. It really feels like strait up metagaming written in to the rules.
By definition, that is impossible. If the DM has the BBEG Dimension Door away before the BBEG can know what they are threatened by, that's on the DM, not the rules
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'd say the rule posted by Plaguescarred (*) is an evolution of the variant option from the 2014 DMG: Initiative Score, which has the predictable advice: "[...] you can speed your game up considerably—at the cost of an initiative order that is often predictable."
(*) not sure if it's just me, but the link isn't working in my case :( Let me reproduce the rule here:
Sorry, but I am not quite understanding this concept or even logic. How are they at any mechanical disadvantage?
Round 0:
20 initiative, Player A does nothing as they do not sense/discern/know about the ambush
15 initiative, bad guys attack and spring ambush
10 initiative, Player B attacks
Round 1:
20 initiative, Player A attacks
15 initiative, bad guys attacks
So starting with the ambush, the bad guys have 2 attacks the Players have 1 attack, so what is the difference if the player had a 20 or a 14 initiative? The party all have the same number of attacks against the bad guys.
If you swap bad guys have a 20 & player A has a 15, there is no change. when comparing Player A with Player B.
Similar to an automobile race on an oval. The leaders/top half (e.g. highest initiative) pit. They come back from pitting and are now in the bottom half. But the bottom half (e.g. initiative #) have to pit as well, when the bottom pit the standings return to the same just like before everyone pitted. The highest initiative is still the 1st to go, however the ambush just changed the perception of when you start counting
In this example, Player A has only one opportunity (in those two rounds) to attack the badguys. If Player A had rolled a 14 for Initiative, they'd have two opportunities to attack the badguys in that same time.
pronouns: he/she/they
But that is why I am saying this is a false perception and the player still has the same number of attacks, but you have to start at a different point. Player A still can attack his 2nd time before the bad guys can attack for a 3rd. That is what evens it up, the start of the 3rd is the even point. Not the start of the end of the 2nd.
They are at a disadvantage IMO because player A effectively goes LAST instead of first after the ambush is sprung. During round 0 as you note they can't do much as they don't know what the threat is. So they are very limited. And they don't really get to counter attack until after all the other players have gone and it is the top of round 1.
IMO it should go:
Bad guy spring trap
20 initiative, player A goes
10 initiative, player B goes
5 initiative, player C goes
Etc...
Back to bad guys
Effectively what you have is:
A does nothing because the character doesn't know what is happening (or metagames and has limited options like dodging)
Bad guy spring trap
10 initiative, Player B goes
5 initiative, player C goes
Etc...
20 initiative, Player A goes
Back to bad guys
That is a crappy reward/feeling for the person who rolled a 20 initiative despite disadvantage IMO. They are very much going to *feel* like they are going last not first. And I don't think players at the table are going to see this as 'correct' or 'reasonable' or 'logical'. IF they could go on delay until at least the first bad guy acted it would be fine, because of course they would get the option of going before player B, but without delay existing it makes no sense at all. Also if you allow delay it effectively becomes the way I described so there would be very little point in doing all the rolling with advantage vs. disadvantage, you could just allow the bad guys to spring their trap and then have everyone else roll initiative normally which saves a small amount of effort.
What I meant by at a mechanical disadvantage is that even in your example, you are saying on their official first turn A does nothing, as they don't know what is happening yet. They cannot run up to the bad guys and attack, at most they get to do a buff, doge, or try to reposition themselves completely blind to the threat, all of which IMO is basically metagaming that they 'feel something coming' so strongly that they begin acting on it, exclusively because their controlling player rolled initiative not because of any perception roll result. That is what I meant by them being at a disadvantage. That first round they have very limited options even if they do act.
I have yet to see a DM rule someone wins initiative, but can't attack because somehow combat hasn't started yet.
I also have yet to see a DM rule a Rogue's sneak attack not kicking off combat when it happens, not putting the rogue into initiative to see if they get to shoot first, because as above it just doesn't make sense to anyone.
I appreciate the responses in this thread, it's a real weakness of the 2024 rules.
You are conveniently ignoring the very next part of the post where I said they could throw up a wall of force which would be fairly reasonable given an unknown threat but still feels like cheating to allow when they do not actually perceive anything.
The thing is... if you win initiative and don't see anyone to attack, who are you supposed to swing your sword at?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No, that is in no way reasonable
If your DM asks you to roll initiative in that scenario, you have no idea why. Maybe it's for combat, against an unknown enemy that could be coming from any direction. Maybe it's for a 4e-style skills challenge or a chase. Maybe it's for something else entirely
There is basically no reason to throw up a wall of force until you know a wall of force is actually going to be useful
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I saw a DM use Passive Initiative where the PC's Dexterity check is 10 + Dex mod, but revealing it only after, basically starting the encounter with the ambushers attacking on it's turn at the top of the order.