Question About Initiative in Surprise Situations

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

 And that has zero impact on my interpretation, because the initiating event is before initiative is even rolled.  It's what causes initiative to be rolled.

And if it's not in Sage Advice, it's just his personal houserule.  I do not consider Crawford authoritative.

 It's just another explanation on how the rules are intended to be used, same for SRD reference about the revision.

The only example in the DMG of character's action initiate combat doesn't go before initiative as well. 

Rolling Initiative: In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

 And that has zero impact on my interpretation, because the initiating event is before initiative is even rolled.  It's what causes initiative to be rolled.

 And that is directly addressed in the rules: when someone causes initiative to be rolled, you roll initiative and it's possible that someone else goes before the initiating character.

: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/dms-toolbox#RollingInitiative

In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a Doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer’s spell goes off, reflecting the monster’s ability to anticipate the spell.

While I can't say I'm fond of this rule (I have my own house rules), there's no real question that it is the rule.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

 And that has zero impact on my interpretation, because the initiating event is before initiative is even rolled.  It's what causes initiative to be rolled.

And if it's not in Sage Advice, it's just his personal houserule.  I do not consider Crawford authoritative.

 It's just another explanation on how the rules are intended to be used, same for SRD reference about the revision.

The only example in the DMG of character's action initiate combat doesn't go before initiative as well. 

Rolling Initiative: In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

 And that has zero impact on my interpretation, because the initiating event is before initiative is even rolled.  It's what causes initiative to be rolled.

 And that is directly addressed in the rules: when someone causes initiative to be rolled, you roll initiative and it's possible that someone else goes before the initiating character.

: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/dms-toolbox#RollingInitiative

In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a Doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer’s spell goes off, reflecting the monster’s ability to anticipate the spell.

While I can't say I'm fond of this rule (I have my own house rules), there's no real question that it is the rule.

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the condition here: "In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat."  So the question to be answered is: did the character's actions initiate combat? These determinations are going to be situation dependent.  Even the act of drawing a sword depends on the context.  Drawing a sword to knight someone? Probably not initiating combat.  Drawing a sword while shouting in anger?  Probably does.

In the example, the sorceror openly casts a spell.  If the other party considers that hostile, then yes, roll initiative before the spell is cast - the act of starting to cast gives everyone notice.  (If, on the other hand, the other party doesn't consider the act of casting a spell to be initiating combat, then you do not roll initiative then, but after the chromatic orb goes off, because the other party specifically doesn't think combat has been initiated by the act of casting -- the DM shouldn't metagame.  And if the situation is reversed, the DM should only tell the players the sorceror starts casting a spell).

Here's the thing, if the sorceror casts it subtly, his action is not initiating combat, because no one can perceive it.  It is the result of casting the spell in that case which initiates combat.  My reading is perfectly in line with what that text is saying at a literal level as well as working at a narrative level.

And this is exactly why I earlier said the rules example was a bad example, because it doesn't cover the normal ambush situation, where the target is completely unaware.  They seem to have only considered situations in which awareness wasn't an issue.  I do not consider the example pertinent for situations in which there is no awareness for one party - an action you are unaware of cannot cause you to react.

Again, the player doesn't get to decide when combat starts and initiative gets rolled.  The DM does.  Full stop.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Attacking a target before it can act in initiative order is one of the reason they revised the surprise rules. 

 I do not care what their intentions were (especially when their intentions were stupid and create narrative incoherence).  I only care what the text literally says.

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the condition here: "In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat."  So the question to be answered is: did the character's actions initiate combat?

That's simple: if the expected outcome of the character's actions is combat, they initiated combat. No, drawing a sword does not necessarily initiate combat, but attacking with it does. This does mean we have the situation of:

• Player: I stab the monster.
• DM: okay, everyone roll initiative.
• Rolls: monster rolls 18. Player rolls 15.
• DM: the monster beats you to a bloody pulp. By the way, you're stunned.
• Player: um... I guess I don't actually stab the monster?

It gets worse, because there can be effects where you don't know until after the effect is resolved whether they start combat. For example, trying to pick someone's pocket.

I think the most coherent solution is to have a rule like

Starting Combat: If a character takes an action that would trigger combat, roll initiative. If this was a Surprise (below) the initiating character is automatically placed at the top of the initiative order; otherwise, characters roll normally.

Surprise: An action is a surprise if it is not perceived or recognized until it has already happened. This may require stealth or deception.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the condition here: "In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat."  So the question to be answered is: did the character's actions initiate combat?

That's simple: if the expected outcome of the character's actions is combat, they initiated combat. No, drawing a sword does not necessarily initiate combat, but attacking with it does. This does mean we have the situation of:

• Player: I stab the monster.
• DM: okay, everyone roll initiative.
• Rolls: monster rolls 18. Player rolls 15.
• DM: the monster beats you to a bloody pulp. By the way, you're stunned.
• Player: um... I guess I don't actually stab the monster?

It gets worse, because there can be effects where you don't know until after the effect is resolved whether they start combat. For example, trying to pick someone's pocket.

I think the most coherent solution is to have a rule like

Starting Combat: If a character takes an action that would trigger combat, roll initiative. If this was a Surprise (below) the initiating character is automatically placed at the top of the initiative order; otherwise, characters roll normally.

Surprise: An action is a surprise if it is not perceived or recognized until it has already happened. This may require stealth or deception.

 

 Eh, i think my solution is both coherent and fully compliant with the text of the PHB and DMG, no houserule needed.  DM decides when combat has started.  That may be after an attack or spell, if appropriate.  Nothing stops the DM from determining so. 

Your example is, again, not useful, because 'i stab the monster' is going to be visible such that the monster sees it coming.  It might be able to react faster than you can attack it.  

My interpretation only comes into play when an action is ambiguous (and the opposing party decides if they think it's hostile), or the action is imperceptible (and the opposing party simply is unaware).

I refuse to believe the rules make time travel a fundamental part of the game mechanics.  You don't get to see 6s into the future to decide if there'll be combat or not.

Quote from Squirrelloid>>

And even in theatre of the mind, you always played with a marching order and relative position.

 You're not supposed to metagame as the DM, either.