If the enemy's previous Magic action that was taken was the last one, the casting has been completed and the enemy is no longer casting. The enemy cannot abort casting the spell until their next turn unless they have a reaction that uses Concentration or prevents Concentration. On their turn, they can choose to take the next Magic action (continuing the spell or potentially completing it) or not to (aborting it).
As the primary caster, you take the Magic action to initiate casting a Circle spell. Until the Circle spell's casting is complete, you must maintain Concentration on the spell. If any caster's Concentration is broken, the spell fails.
The creator can end Concentration at any time (no action required).
Conclusion, a primary caster can abort the casting at any time.
Moving and Communicating take no actions but are still restricted to your turn. Ending Concentration requires no action to end on your turn. Nothing allows you to end Concentration as a non action outside of your turn. A spellcaster (any spellcaster in a Circle spell) can abort the casting at any time that they are eligible to end Concentration, which is only on their turn.
RAW, to see a creature casting a spell is to see the creature using components.
That's never stated in the 2024 rules or Sage Advice.
RAW changed from 2014 to 2024 and this might be an unintentional change or an intentional change, particularly if they had already considered the inclusion of Circle Magic and intended for the secondary casters to be valid targets if the spell casting was otherwise valid for targeting purposes.
Okay, I'm legitimately curious: How did you get it this wrong?
I didn't.
I have explained it multiple times already. If you do not understand the words I wrote that is one thing. If you do not agree with me and expect that by starting with the declaration that I am incorrect, I will magically buckle, I won't. Until we get a Sage Advice or Errata, I am correct. Until then, you are also correct. We both have valid readings. I will absolutely not back down from my reading being valid, but I will not declare yours invalid. I do not care intensely, what direction WotC chooses, only that they officially clarify their rules. Please, select another area of the conversation where I won't be repeating myself ad nauseum.
In essence, what they are establishing is that, yes, the act of being primary caster is essentially one of 'casting a spell' and we aren't suppose to try and argue 'well, they're taking the Magic action, but the spell requires the contribution of a group, so they aren't actually 'casting'.'
Absolutely not. It does not define initiation a Circle spell as casting a spell, if it did it would say so (which it doesn't do). But you are correct on the fact that we don't need to argue about if they are casting or not because the new trigger they defined for us will work anyway.
Initiating a Circle spell and contributing to one are both steps under Casting a Circle Spell. Cast a Circle spell follows rules for spellcasting in the PHB and also the rules for Circle spells. That said, I personally have less of an issue with saying that none of the spellcasters are casting a spell as opposed to only the primary caster is. In your view, I suppose the only opportunities for triggers when a spell is cast would be when the Circle spell is initiated (due the explicit call out) and when the spell completes (this would apply to an Arcane Trickster's Spell Thief and Order Domain's Voice of Authority)?
Moving and Communicating take no actions but are still restricted to your turn. Ending Concentration requires no action to end on your turn. Nothing allows you to end Concentration as a non action outside of your turn. A spellcaster (any spellcaster in a Circle spell) can abort the casting at any time that they are eligible to end Concentration, which is only on their turn.
I didn't.
I have explained it multiple times already. If you do not understand the words I wrote that is one thing. If you do not agree with me and expect that by starting with the declaration that I am incorrect, I will magically buckle, I won't. Until we get a Sage Advice or Errata, I am correct. Until then, you are also correct. We both have valid readings. I will absolutely not back down from my reading being valid, but I will not declare yours invalid. I do not care intensely, what direction WotC chooses, only that they officially clarify their rules. Please, select another area of the conversation where I won't be repeating myself ad nauseum.
So you're declaring:
-"At any time" isn't actually at any time -A rule that hasn't changed between 2014 and 2024 has somehow changed without any errata telling us so
Definitely incorrect on both counts. Especially when we have this correct statement:
However, if we're discussing the visibility of subtle spellcasting: 2024 doesn't say, and therefore we can just rely on XGTE, because they were never overridden and, as has been stated many times, 2024 edition is still 5e.
Moving and Communicating take no actions but are still restricted to your turn. Ending Concentration requires no action to end on your turn. Nothing allows you to end Concentration as a non action outside of your turn. A spellcaster (any spellcaster in a Circle spell) can abort the casting at any time that they are eligible to end Concentration, which is only on their turn.
I didn't.
I have explained it multiple times already. If you do not understand the words I wrote that is one thing. If you do not agree with me and expect that by starting with the declaration that I am incorrect, I will magically buckle, I won't. Until we get a Sage Advice or Errata, I am correct. Until then, you are also correct. We both have valid readings. I will absolutely not back down from my reading being valid, but I will not declare yours invalid. I do not care intensely, what direction WotC chooses, only that they officially clarify their rules. Please, select another area of the conversation where I won't be repeating myself ad nauseum.
So you're declaring:
-"At any time" isn't actually at any time
No. That's fair. I was focused on the No Action Required.
It doesn't really change anything since if the spell is being cast with V, S, M components, it is being cast with V, S, M components until it is completed or aborted. The fact that you can abort the casting provides no evidence that casting a spell is restricted to during the Magic action you used to cast or continue casting it.
-A rule that hasn't changed between 2014 and 2024 has somehow changed without any errata telling us so
The trigger for Counterspell changed from 2024 and so did the possible interpretations. You are welcome to make an RAI argument based on the XGtE, but not a RAW one. Even if you consider XGtE currently applicable to the 2024 rules, the specific trigger of Counterspell 2024 would override the general rules of Xanathar's. It's not relevant.
The trigger for Counterspell changed from 2024 and so did the possible interpretations.
The trigger for counterspell in 2024 was changed to make it explicit that you must be able to tell that the creature is casting a spell, whereas in 2014 it was merely implicit.
The trigger for Counterspell changed from 2024 and so did the possible interpretations.
The trigger for counterspell in 2024 was changed to make it explicit that you must be able to tell that the creature is casting a spell, whereas in 2014 it was merely implicit.
That is your opinion and I am not contesting the validity of it, but unless your next steps are going to be to update the Sage Advice, it will just be your opinion.
Do you have anything new to add or is this just going to a game of "I'm right and your wrong"? I have defended the validity of my position multiple times. You are not required to agree with it for it to be a valid reading. If we are discussing a spell cast by a single caster, there is no practical difference in our interpretations (unless you subscribe to the belief that Counterspell can only cast as a reaction in response to the casting creature's Magic action). Only when we have multiple casters do we differ. This is a scenario, that did not exist in 2014 and was created while Jeremy Crawford was lead and, without knowing how much the 5.24 supplemental products overlapped with the original core books in development/planning, could have been explicitly taken into account when updating Counterspell. There is no way for us to know.
The secondary casters are also casters of the Circle spell. If the Circle spell is being cast with Verbal, Somatic, and Material components and you can see the secondary casters, they are a creature you see casting a spell with Verbal, Somatic, and Material components. If they are within 60 feet, you can Counterspell the Circle spell by targeting the secondary casters.
I will be happy to see it clarified as I am wrong. I will be happy to see it clarified as I am correct. I will be happy to see it clarified.
Do you have anything new to add or is this just going to a game of "I'm right and your wrong"? I have defended the validity of my position multiple times.
No, you've ignored everyone who pointed out your reading didn't match the actual language, broke the clauses up in funny ways rather than reading them all together, and that the 2024 reaction condition really does require that you see components being used by the creature you're targeting.
It doesn't really change anything since if the spell is being cast with V, S, M components, it is being cast with V, S, M components until it is completed or aborted.
This is actually false. It is only being cast with VSM components while the main caster is taking a magic action, because they're the ones doing the V, S, and M, and they only get to act on their turn when not taking a reaction.
Moving and Communicating take no actions but are still restricted to your turn. Ending Concentration requires no action to end on your turn. Nothing allows you to end Concentration as a non action outside of your turn. A spellcaster (any spellcaster in a Circle spell) can abort the casting at any time that they are eligible to end Concentration, which is only on their turn.
I didn't.
I have explained it multiple times already. If you do not understand the words I wrote that is one thing. If you do not agree with me and expect that by starting with the declaration that I am incorrect, I will magically buckle, I won't. Until we get a Sage Advice or Errata, I am correct. Until then, you are also correct. We both have valid readings. I will absolutely not back down from my reading being valid, but I will not declare yours invalid. I do not care intensely, what direction WotC chooses, only that they officially clarify their rules. Please, select another area of the conversation where I won't be repeating myself ad nauseum.
Initiating a Circle spell and contributing to one are both steps under Casting a Circle Spell. Cast a Circle spell follows rules for spellcasting in the PHB and also the rules for Circle spells. That said, I personally have less of an issue with saying that none of the spellcasters are casting a spell as opposed to only the primary caster is. In your view, I suppose the only opportunities for triggers when a spell is cast would be when the Circle spell is initiated (due the explicit call out) and when the spell completes (this would apply to an Arcane Trickster's Spell Thief and Order Domain's Voice of Authority)?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
So you're declaring:
-"At any time" isn't actually at any time
-A rule that hasn't changed between 2014 and 2024 has somehow changed without any errata telling us so
Definitely incorrect on both counts. Especially when we have this correct statement:
No. That's fair. I was focused on the No Action Required.
It doesn't really change anything since if the spell is being cast with V, S, M components, it is being cast with V, S, M components until it is completed or aborted. The fact that you can abort the casting provides no evidence that casting a spell is restricted to during the Magic action you used to cast or continue casting it.
The trigger for Counterspell changed from 2024 and so did the possible interpretations. You are welcome to make an RAI argument based on the XGtE, but not a RAW one. Even if you consider XGtE currently applicable to the 2024 rules, the specific trigger of Counterspell 2024 would override the general rules of Xanathar's. It's not relevant.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The trigger for counterspell in 2024 was changed to make it explicit that you must be able to tell that the creature is casting a spell, whereas in 2014 it was merely implicit.
That is your opinion and I am not contesting the validity of it, but unless your next steps are going to be to update the Sage Advice, it will just be your opinion.
Do you have anything new to add or is this just going to a game of "I'm right and your wrong"? I have defended the validity of my position multiple times. You are not required to agree with it for it to be a valid reading. If we are discussing a spell cast by a single caster, there is no practical difference in our interpretations (unless you subscribe to the belief that Counterspell can only cast as a reaction in response to the casting creature's Magic action). Only when we have multiple casters do we differ. This is a scenario, that did not exist in 2014 and was created while Jeremy Crawford was lead and, without knowing how much the 5.24 supplemental products overlapped with the original core books in development/planning, could have been explicitly taken into account when updating Counterspell. There is no way for us to know.
The secondary casters are also casters of the Circle spell. If the Circle spell is being cast with Verbal, Somatic, and Material components and you can see the secondary casters, they are a creature you see casting a spell with Verbal, Somatic, and Material components. If they are within 60 feet, you can Counterspell the Circle spell by targeting the secondary casters.
I will be happy to see it clarified as I am wrong. I will be happy to see it clarified as I am correct. I will be happy to see it clarified.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
No, you've ignored everyone who pointed out your reading didn't match the actual language, broke the clauses up in funny ways rather than reading them all together, and that the 2024 reaction condition really does require that you see components being used by the creature you're targeting.
Your position is obviously invalid.
This is actually false. It is only being cast with VSM components while the main caster is taking a magic action, because they're the ones doing the V, S, and M, and they only get to act on their turn when not taking a reaction.