it's often not the action that initiates combat, but the result of the action that initiates combat.
There's no rules support for your claim in 5E24 the only exemple of action initiating combat is not resolved before Initiative.
There is no germane example in 5E24 at all. The rules still say the DM decides when combat starts. It never says 'the intention to take a hostile action starts combat'.
it's often not the action that initiates combat, but the result of the action that initiates combat.
There's no rules support for your claim in 5E24 the only exemple of action initiating combat is not resolved before Initiative.
There is no germane example in 5E24 at all...
I don't think that's entirely true. I believe with the examples we have and their comments on the change in the SRD, there is clear intention that it shouldn't work differently when the initial attack is from an invisible creature (wherein the examples are germane because there is not meant to be any distinction). How do you square their desire to get rid of the "surprise round" or "surprised creatures do not act on their first turn" with starting combat with the first hostile action already taken place? You can try to squeeze that into "combat hadn't started because I, the DM, hadn't said it did and therefore there was no first turn to miss", but that doesn't square with the intent. The attacker still got an extra action to act before initiative was rolled, and could potentially—and probably will—act again before the attackees get to act. And THAT is what the designers were trying to avoid, by their own words.
It is now our job to either houserule something different, or try to narrate what happens when the dice fall how they may within the rules provided.
it's often not the action that initiates combat, but the result of the action that initiates combat.
There's no rules support for your claim in 5E24 the only exemple of action initiating combat is not resolved before Initiative.
There is no germane example in 5E24 at all...
I don't think that's entirely true. I believe with the examples we have and their comments on the change in the SRD, there is clear intention that it shouldn't work differently when the initial attack is from an invisible creature (wherein the examples are germane because there is not meant to be any distinction). How do you square their desire to get rid of the "surprise round" or "surprised creatures do not act on their first turn" with starting combat with the first hostile action already taken place? You can try to squeeze that into "combat hadn't started because I, the DM, hadn't said it did and therefore there was no first turn to miss", but that doesn't square with the intent. The attacker still got an extra action to act before initiative was rolled, and could potentially—and probably will—act again before the attackees get to act. And THAT is what the designers were trying to avoid, by their own words.
It is now our job to either houserule something different, or try to narrate what happens when the dice fall how they may within the rules provided.
I refer you to the 2014 gelatinous cube example:
--The party is unaware
--It engulfs a PC.
--That situation gives it surprise. Roll initiative. (ie, the engulfing -> combat starting -> determine surprise -> roll initiative). Then:
--2014: The gelatinous cube acts in the first round. The party does not (they have turns but can take no action, and stop being surprised after their first turn). If the gelatinous cube acts before the party's initiatives, it acts again before them in the second round.
--2024: The gelatinous cube rolls initiative with advantage (invisible). The party rolls initiative with disadvantage (surprise). Everyone acts in the first round. If the gelatinous cube goes first, it only gets one action before the party gets to take actions.
ie, even with the interpretation that the unperceived attack's result causes combat to start, and only then do you roll initiative, the intent to reduce the ability to double act relative to the other side is still achieved. That initiating hostile act was always before initiative and the first round of combat, but now there's no round where the surprised characters don't do anything against it.
Note also that only one attack can be the initiating event. It isn't the entire ambushing side gets an attack or other offensive action before rolling initiative. There's a single hostile action that happens before initiative. It's not a round, it's a singular thing. (And if both sides are aware of each other, that cannot even be an attack, because the preparation to attack will be perceived and result in initiative. This is about the moment of awareness that conflict is happening or about to happen.)
At worst, the surprise round meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the surprise round, and once before anyone else in subsequent rounds.
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.14 meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the first round, and once before anyone could "do anything" on their first available turn to "do something".
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.24 means that the ambusher only gets a high chance to act before the ambushees once; on the first round of combat due to advantage on the initiative roll. And even if it doesn't, the ones going before are reacting to partial information and will be not as effective as when the ambusher finally reveals themselves.
Your interpretation of the 5.24 rules means that just like previous editions and 5.14, the ambusher is allowed to act twice before the ambushees are allowed to act. Once to initiate the combat, and once before they get their turn if the ambusher beats them (and probably will). In other words, nothing much has changed.
At worst, the surprise round meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the surprise round, and once before anyone else in subsequent rounds.
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.14 meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the first round, and once before anyone could "do anything" on their first available turn to "do something".
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.24 means that the ambusher only gets a high chance to act before the ambushees once; on the first round of combat due to advantage on the initiative roll.
Your interpretation of the 5.24 rules means that just like previous editions and 5.14, the ambusher is allowed to act twice before the ambushees are allowed to act. Once to initiate the combat, and once before they get their turn if the ambusher beats them (and probably will). In other words, nothing much has changed.
I think the difference I laid out above is a pretty huge difference. Potentially the initiating action plus two rounds of attacks, vs. the initiating action and no more than one round of attacks.
Also, the odds that the singular attacker who manages to initiate combat with the result of their attack gets to act again before the entire party is actually really small for normal party sizes. I gave the odds already above. A monster who manages to initiate combat expects to lose initiative to at least one player despite having advantage (and the players having disadvantage) against a party of 4-6 players, even assuming they all have the same initiative modifier. (And frankly, at least some players in a standard party probably have a higher initiative modifier). The odds of d20 (advantage) beating d20 (disadvantage) with the same modifier is only ~80%. More players, more independent initiative rolls, that becomes 0.8^N, where N is the number of players.
My interpretation is less kind to the ambushers than the 3.x surprise round (which was less kind to the ambushers than the 2014 rules), where the entire ambushing side got to make one action before regular combat rounds. Now it's just one individual whose hostile act has to be completely unperceived, and only the result is apparent.
Frankly, your version is 'surprise might as well not exist'. Take Alert and a high dex. Blunder through the dungeon. Never care that you're surprised or that your perception is -1 or -5 or -20, because surprise doesn't actually do much of anything. Bonus points if you can do it while hiding.
At worst, the surprise round meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the surprise round, and once before anyone else in subsequent rounds.
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.14 meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the first round, and once before anyone could "do anything" on their first available turn to "do something".
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.24 means that the ambusher only gets a high chance to act before the ambushees once; on the first round of combat due to advantage on the initiative roll.
Your interpretation of the 5.24 rules means that just like previous editions and 5.14, the ambusher is allowed to act twice before the ambushees are allowed to act. Once to initiate the combat, and once before they get their turn if the ambusher beats them (and probably will). In other words, nothing much has changed.
One (1) ambusher against an entire team seems like it would be a pretty rare situation, because the action economy would be lopsided even with an ambush.
In 2014, I would argue that the worst case is not that a single ambusher acts twice before the ambushees; what's actually the worst case is that the ambusher isn't alone and everyone on the ambusher's team gets to act against the ambushees in the first round (and in the second round, who knows how many ambushers rolled higher initiative than a PC and will get a second turn before a PC gets to act).
The change in 2024 is still easier on the ambushees because they get to act in the first round, and that's true even if the ambusher gets their attack off before initiative is rolled. If the ambusher has a team with them, allowing the PC's to act in the first round is still easier than the 2014 version. I'd say there's even a case to be made that if the ambusher gets their attack off before initiative is rolled, they no longer roll initiative with advantage because they've been revealed by their attack - but anyone else on their team who is hidden does roll with advantage. (The ambushees are still surprised and roll initiative with disadvantage, though.)
At worst, the surprise round meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the surprise round, and once before anyone else in subsequent rounds.
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.14 meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the first round, and once before anyone could "do anything" on their first available turn to "do something".
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.24 means that the ambusher only gets a high chance to act before the ambushees once; on the first round of combat due to advantage on the initiative roll.
Your interpretation of the 5.24 rules means that just like previous editions and 5.14, the ambusher is allowed to act twice before the ambushees are allowed to act. Once to initiate the combat, and once before they get their turn if the ambusher beats them (and probably will). In other words, nothing much has changed.
One (1) ambusher against an entire team seems like it would be a pretty rare situation, because the action economy would be lopsided even with an ambush.
In 2014, I would argue that the worst case is not that a single ambusher acts twice before the ambushees; what's actually the worst case is that the ambusher isn't alone and everyone on the ambusher's team gets to act against the ambushees in the first round (and in the second round, who knows how many ambushers rolled higher initiative than a PC and will get a second turn before a PC gets to act).
The change in 2024 is still easier on the ambushees because they get to act in the first round, and that's true even if the ambusher gets their attack off before initiative is rolled. If the ambusher has a team with them, allowing the PC's to act in the first round is still easier than the 2014 version. I'd say there's even a case to be made that if the ambusher gets their attack off before initiative is rolled, they no longer roll initiative with advantage because they've been revealed by their attack - but anyone else on their team who is hidden does roll with advantage. (The ambushees are still surprised and roll initiative with disadvantage, though.)
I agree, but let's be specific:
It's being invisible that gives them advantage. If their invisibility ends because of the initiating attack, yeah, they don't get advantage. If they have greater invisibility, they're still invisible, and still get advantage. (And if they're a Thief with the right Cunning Strike, they're quite possibly still invisible).
If they were a sorceror casting a subtle spell, they never got advantage in the first place, even if the spell should go off before combat starts, and that spell causes combat and surprises their enemies. They weren't ever invisible, but their hostile act was imperceptible until it resolved.
I think the difference I laid out above is a pretty huge difference. Potentially the initiating action plus two rounds of attacks, vs. the initiating action and no more than one round of attacks.
This is assuming that the initiating action exists outside of initiative, which you have mostly failed to persuade anyone of. But yes, three actions before anyone else does something is even worse than two actions.
I think the difference I laid out above is a pretty huge difference. Potentially the initiating action plus two rounds of attacks, vs. the initiating action and no more than one round of attacks.
This is assuming that the initiating action exists outside of initiative, which you have mostly failed to persuade anyone of. But yes, three actions before anyone else does something is even worse than two actions.
I think that the initiating action existing outside of initiative makes sense just fine for a completely undetected attacker, and that it makes FAR more sense than having the ambushee potentially being able to react to the undetected attacker before the attack happens.
At worst, the surprise round meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the surprise round, and once before anyone else in subsequent rounds.
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.14 meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the first round, and once before anyone could "do anything" on their first available turn to "do something".
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.24 means that the ambusher only gets a high chance to act before the ambushees once; on the first round of combat due to advantage on the initiative roll.
Your interpretation of the 5.24 rules means that just like previous editions and 5.14, the ambusher is allowed to act twice before the ambushees are allowed to act. Once to initiate the combat, and once before they get their turn if the ambusher beats them (and probably will). In other words, nothing much has changed.
I think the difference I laid out above is a pretty huge difference. Potentially the initiating action plus two rounds of attacks, vs. the initiating action and no more than one round of attacks.
Also, the odds that the singular attacker who manages to initiate combat with the result of their attack gets to act again before the entire party is actually really small for normal party sizes. I gave the odds already above. A monster who manages to initiate combat expects to lose initiative to at least one player despite having advantage (and the players having disadvantage) against a party of 4-6 players, even assuming they all have the same initiative modifier. (And frankly, at least some players in a standard party probably have a higher initiative modifier). The odds of d20 (advantage) beating d20 (disadvantage) with the same modifier is only ~80%. More players, more independent initiative rolls, that becomes 0.8^N, where N is the number of players.
My interpretation is less kind to the ambushers than the 3.x surprise round (which was less kind to the ambushers than the 2014 rules), where the entire ambushing side got to make one action before regular combat rounds. Now it's just one individual whose hostile act has to be completely unperceived, and only the result is apparent.
Frankly, your version is 'surprise might as well not exist'. Take Alert and a high dex. Blunder through the dungeon. Never care that you're surprised or that your perception is -1 or -5 or -20, because surprise doesn't actually do much of anything. Bonus points if you can do it while hiding.
The fewer the combatants the larger that one individual's impact will be, relatively speaking.
Pentagruel already covered it, but the prior rules had no need for combat events to happen outside of combat. If you attacked someone suddenly, that attack is the one that happened in the surprise round. I am comparing this to what you are doing, which is adding a combat action outside of combat. Which is why the worst case of before is equal to the worst case of your interpretation (albeit with a single ambusher).
Ambushers are likely to have a high Dex already... meaning analyzing it with everyone having the same initiative modifier is probably not an accurate way to go about it. Sure, the rogue has a roughly 20% chance to beat the ambusher in initiative, but you've got to have superhuman rolls to beat them on your wizard or plate-wearing paladin.
In any case, everyone taking Alert and having high Dex is certainly a way for surprise not to have a noticeable effect on your party (I would argue that is kind of the point of the feat), but there's an opportunity cost there, especially if more than one person takes it. And perception is a hell of a lot more than just noticing ambushers. High initiative order isn't going to help you find the secret door, for example.
At worst, the surprise round meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the surprise round, and once before anyone else in subsequent rounds.
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.14 meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the first round, and once before anyone could "do anything" on their first available turn to "do something".
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.24 means that the ambusher only gets a high chance to act before the ambushees once; on the first round of combat due to advantage on the initiative roll.
Your interpretation of the 5.24 rules means that just like previous editions and 5.14, the ambusher is allowed to act twice before the ambushees are allowed to act. Once to initiate the combat, and once before they get their turn if the ambusher beats them (and probably will). In other words, nothing much has changed.
I think the difference I laid out above is a pretty huge difference. Potentially the initiating action plus two rounds of attacks, vs. the initiating action and no more than one round of attacks.
Also, the odds that the singular attacker who manages to initiate combat with the result of their attack gets to act again before the entire party is actually really small for normal party sizes. I gave the odds already above. A monster who manages to initiate combat expects to lose initiative to at least one player despite having advantage (and the players having disadvantage) against a party of 4-6 players, even assuming they all have the same initiative modifier. (And frankly, at least some players in a standard party probably have a higher initiative modifier). The odds of d20 (advantage) beating d20 (disadvantage) with the same modifier is only ~80%. More players, more independent initiative rolls, that becomes 0.8^N, where N is the number of players.
My interpretation is less kind to the ambushers than the 3.x surprise round (which was less kind to the ambushers than the 2014 rules), where the entire ambushing side got to make one action before regular combat rounds. Now it's just one individual whose hostile act has to be completely unperceived, and only the result is apparent.
Frankly, your version is 'surprise might as well not exist'. Take Alert and a high dex. Blunder through the dungeon. Never care that you're surprised or that your perception is -1 or -5 or -20, because surprise doesn't actually do much of anything. Bonus points if you can do it while hiding.
The fewer the combatants the larger that one individual's impact will be, relatively speaking.
Pentagruel already covered it, but the prior rules had no need for combat events to happen outside of combat. If you attacked someone suddenly, that attack is the one that happened in the surprise round. I am comparing this to what you are doing, which is adding a combat action outside of combat. Which is why the worst case of before is equal to the worst case of your interpretation (albeit with a single ambusher).
Ambushers are likely to have a high Dex already... meaning analyzing it with everyone having the same initiative modifier is probably not an accurate way to go about it. Sure, the rogue has a roughly 20% chance to beat the ambusher in initiative, but you've got to have superhuman rolls to beat them on your wizard or plate-wearing paladin.
In any case, everyone taking Alert and having high Dex is certainly a way for surprise not to have a noticeable effect on your party (I would argue that is kind of the point of the feat), but there's an opportunity cost there, especially if more than one person takes it. And perception is a hell of a lot more than just noticing ambushers. High initiative order isn't going to help you find the secret door, for example.
The Gelatinous Cube example is from 2014. That was with the first round surprised characters don't take any actions, and it specifically said that engulfing the character was the situation before surprise. So yeah, its definitely an improvement in that example. And you keep forgetting that most of the time there will be multiple enemies, and only one of them will get an attack before combat starts and only in the case where they are completely undetected.
Are ambushers likely to have a high initiative? I mean, the person in a party who gets the undetected drop on the enemy will probably be the scout, who is likely to have high dex, true. But what about monsters?
--The Gelatinous Cube has an initiative modifier of -4. It is unlikely to go first, even with advantage from initiative and the entire party being surprised. Oozes and jellies, also likely to be ambushers, also have negative initiative modifiers and are unlikely to go first. I also found the assassin vine at +0, still not setting the world on fire.
--The median monster in the MM has an initiative of +2. That's not very impressive. The average is about 3.5, also not that impressive.
--At the higher end of 'should always be ambushing' non-human monsters, we have the Roper at +5 initiative, and the Mimic, the Piercer, and the Darkmantle, all at +3 initiative. These are not initiatives likely to go first against a party of 4+ characters, nor do they have sufficient stealth to reliably escape notice by passive perception of even a 1st level party. (A wisdom-based character with proficiency in perception expects to automatically detect all of these at level 1 with passive perception. Indeed, only the Roper and the Mimic can pass a DC 15 hide check better than 50% of the time).
--At the high end, we have monsters like Solars, Ancient Dragons, Liches, Colossus, Kraken, Pit Fiend, Balor - not exactly renowned ambushers. The database I'm using didn't put skills in it, but it does have dex saves - none of which are amazing given most of them have proficiency in dex saves and are high CR, so that high initiative isn't from stellar dexterity. Going to guess their stealth checks aren't that great.
--The first stealth attacker i get to going down from the highest initiatives is the Assassin at +10 initiative, which is pretty decent for CR8, and a respectable Stealth +10. But even if he gets one strike in that starts combat, and then acts before the party (3 more attacks), they're at only +7 to hit. Now, he has pretty impressive damage output, but I don't know that one extra attack will make a difference. He gets 3 attacks doing 29 damage each with a crossbow. I doubt the one extra attack at the start of combat will make a difference - if that damage output is a problem, it's a problem at 3 attacks too. The 4th one (by at most one assassin) doesn't really change the encounter math that much.
So most ambush monsters do not have great initiative, nor do they even have great stealth. There's maybe one monster where an ambush is a problem, and one extra attack isn't moving the needle on how much of a problem it is.
(Strangely enough, the higher CR and vaguely similar monster Spy Master has lower initiative, and worse damage per hit by a lot. Something feels off here).
it's often not the action that initiates combat, but the result of the action that initiates combat.
There's no rules support for your claim in 5E24 the only exemple of action initiating combat is not resolved before Initiative.
There is no germane example in 5E24 at all. The rules still say the DM decides when combat starts. It never says 'the intention to take a hostile action starts combat'.
Yes there is one in the DMG 5E24. It clearly mention when the action initiating combat resolve and it's after Initiative
There are no other reference in the game to support the claim that action initiating combat resolves before Initiative.
Rolling Initiative
Combat starts when—and only when—you say it does. Some characters have abilities that trigger on an Initiative roll; you, not the players, decide if and when Initiative is rolled. A high-level Barbarian can't just punch their Paladin friend and roll Initiative to regain expended uses of Rage.
In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.
As this Sage Advice ruling said; activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised and the reference to Gelatinous Cube makes no exception;
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round?
The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” in the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” in the Player’s Handbook).
To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.
In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
So in the Gelatinous Cube example as it relates to Surprise ("A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them."), when Initiative gets rolled, has the cube engulfed the adventurer, or is the text incorrect?
So in the Gelatinous Cube example as it relates to Surprise ("A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them."), when Initiative gets rolled, has the cube engulfed the adventurer, or is the text incorrect?
The gelatinous cube engulfs the adventure as its first action. Mechanically speaking this meant (in 2014) that the cube engulfed a PC before any PC took an action, and is thus narratively correct. However, 2024 does not guarantee an ambusher any actions before the ambushees can act, which is why it causes issues with reversal of cause and effect.
it's often not the action that initiates combat, but the result of the action that initiates combat.
There's no rules support for your claim in 5E24 the only exemple of action initiating combat is not resolved before Initiative.
There is no germane example in 5E24 at all. The rules still say the DM decides when combat starts. It never says 'the intention to take a hostile action starts combat'.
Yes there is one in the DMG 5E24. It clearly mention when the action initiating combat resolve and it's after Initiative
There are no other reference in the game to support the claim that action initiating combat resolves before Initiative.
Rolling Initiative
Combat starts when—and only when—you say it does. Some characters have abilities that trigger on an Initiative roll; you, not the players, decide if and when Initiative is rolled. A high-level Barbarian can't just punch their Paladin friend and roll Initiative to regain expended uses of Rage.
In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.
And that example is not germane because everyone sees the sorceror start casting a spell. (It's also obviously wrong, because that spell could instead be Friends, and casting Friends cannot possibly always start combat. And no one knows what spell he's casting when he starts casting it!)
(For those who insist the sorceror needs to tell the DM what spell it is, and that which spell can cause different results... that's definitely a time machine. And also, flip the example. It's an NPC that starts casting a spell which could be anything from Friends to Fabricate to Fireball. Does the DM need to tell PCs what spells NPCs are casting before the spell resolves? If the PCs don't get to know in the reverse situation, the DM can't let the NPCs know).
The example is also obviously wrong in another way: the sorceror doesn't have to cast Chromatic Orb, or even cast a spell at all. If initiative really works like they say, and the doppelganger acts before him, the doppelganger acts before he even starts casting a spell. (This discussion makes me miss 1st AD+D segments).
A germane example needs one where the initial hostile action is completely undetected by the other side. An invisible unperceived attacker, or a sorceror casting with subtle spell, or similar. The gelatinous cube example from 2014 is the only germane example I have seen in any rulebook or any SAC discussion.
As this Sage Advice ruling said; activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised and the reference to Gelatinous Cube makes no exception;
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round?
The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” in the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” in the Player’s Handbook).
To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.
In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
And you're assuming the consequent, that the first hostile action is 'in combat'. That's what's disputed, so you can't assume that. In the scenarios we're discussing, it's not "in combat", it causes combat to start. If it starts combat, then everything after that is in combat, but it is before combat starting. Causality demands that the thing which starts or triggers a chain of events happens before the events it causes. Usually hostile action will be visible before an attack roll is made, at which point it is proper to roll initiative before an attack. But if there's no perceived threat until the knife appears in someone's back, combat only starts after that.
So in the Gelatinous Cube example as it relates to Surprise ("A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them."), when Initiative gets rolled, has the cube engulfed the adventurer, or is the text incorrect?
The gelatinous cube engulfs the adventure as its first action. Mechanically speaking this meant (in 2014) that the cube engulfed a PC before any PC took an action, and is thus narratively correct. However, 2024 does not guarantee an ambusher any actions before the ambushees can act, which is why it causes issues with reversal of cause and effect.
Assuming the consequent and ignoring what the text actually says. The text literally says the situation where the PC is already engulfed gives the Cube surprise (which is determined before any attacks are made during a combat round, even in 2014). There's no other way to read that text. You have to assume your interpretation of the rules is right, and ignore the actual text to force the example to fit your understanding of the rules to get to your reading.
But that's not an example of gameplay. It's a narrative example, and so cannot be used at all, as it can fit either interpretation.
The cube example? It's given with a very specific order of operations. The cube is undetected until it engulfs a PC. That situation (the engulfed PC) gives the Cube surprise, which means the PC is already engulfed before rolling initiative.
Do you have any other official examples involving a completely undetected attack or attacker?
A germane example needs one where the initial hostile action is completely undetected by the other side. An invisible unperceived attacker, or a sorceror casting with subtle spell, or similar. The gelatinous cube example from 2014 is the only germane example I have seen in any rulebook or any SAC discussion.
Exactly, if there's no example of it in 5E24, then there's no rule support for it in 5E24.
And the example in 5E14 you refer too never explicitly say it uses Engulf before initiative. If you carefully read the sentence, you will see it's more narrative than mechanic. Here's why;
A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
The actual Transparent trait says the following"
Transparent. Even when the cube is in plain sight, it takes a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check to spot a cube that has neither moved nor attacked. A creature that tries to enter the cube's space while unaware of the cube is surprised by the cube.
Meaning that if the A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, you spot it because it has moved.
It says the Cube is unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. Nothing says it's before Initiative considering Surprise is determine at the 1st Combat Step by Step and one can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat.
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There's no rules support for your claim in 5E24 the only exemple of action initiating combat is not resolved before Initiative.
There is no germane example in 5E24 at all. The rules still say the DM decides when combat starts. It never says 'the intention to take a hostile action starts combat'.
I don't think that's entirely true. I believe with the examples we have and their comments on the change in the SRD, there is clear intention that it shouldn't work differently when the initial attack is from an invisible creature (wherein the examples are germane because there is not meant to be any distinction). How do you square their desire to get rid of the "surprise round" or "surprised creatures do not act on their first turn" with starting combat with the first hostile action already taken place? You can try to squeeze that into "combat hadn't started because I, the DM, hadn't said it did and therefore there was no first turn to miss", but that doesn't square with the intent. The attacker still got an extra action to act before initiative was rolled, and could potentially—and probably will—act again before the attackees get to act. And THAT is what the designers were trying to avoid, by their own words.
It is now our job to either houserule something different, or try to narrate what happens when the dice fall how they may within the rules provided.
I refer you to the 2014 gelatinous cube example:
--The party is unaware
--It engulfs a PC.
--That situation gives it surprise. Roll initiative. (ie, the engulfing -> combat starting -> determine surprise -> roll initiative). Then:
--2014: The gelatinous cube acts in the first round. The party does not (they have turns but can take no action, and stop being surprised after their first turn). If the gelatinous cube acts before the party's initiatives, it acts again before them in the second round.
--2024: The gelatinous cube rolls initiative with advantage (invisible). The party rolls initiative with disadvantage (surprise). Everyone acts in the first round. If the gelatinous cube goes first, it only gets one action before the party gets to take actions.
ie, even with the interpretation that the unperceived attack's result causes combat to start, and only then do you roll initiative, the intent to reduce the ability to double act relative to the other side is still achieved. That initiating hostile act was always before initiative and the first round of combat, but now there's no round where the surprised characters don't do anything against it.
Note also that only one attack can be the initiating event. It isn't the entire ambushing side gets an attack or other offensive action before rolling initiative. There's a single hostile action that happens before initiative. It's not a round, it's a singular thing. (And if both sides are aware of each other, that cannot even be an attack, because the preparation to attack will be perceived and result in initiative. This is about the moment of awareness that conflict is happening or about to happen.)
At worst, the surprise round meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the surprise round, and once before anyone else in subsequent rounds.
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.14 meant that the ambusher acted twice before the ambushees. Once during the first round, and once before anyone could "do anything" on their first available turn to "do something".
At worst, the surprised condition in 5.24 means that the ambusher only gets a high chance to act before the ambushees once; on the first round of combat due to advantage on the initiative roll. And even if it doesn't, the ones going before are reacting to partial information and will be not as effective as when the ambusher finally reveals themselves.
Your interpretation of the 5.24 rules means that just like previous editions and 5.14, the ambusher is allowed to act twice before the ambushees are allowed to act. Once to initiate the combat, and once before they get their turn if the ambusher beats them (and probably will). In other words, nothing much has changed.
I think the difference I laid out above is a pretty huge difference. Potentially the initiating action plus two rounds of attacks, vs. the initiating action and no more than one round of attacks.
Also, the odds that the singular attacker who manages to initiate combat with the result of their attack gets to act again before the entire party is actually really small for normal party sizes. I gave the odds already above. A monster who manages to initiate combat expects to lose initiative to at least one player despite having advantage (and the players having disadvantage) against a party of 4-6 players, even assuming they all have the same initiative modifier. (And frankly, at least some players in a standard party probably have a higher initiative modifier). The odds of d20 (advantage) beating d20 (disadvantage) with the same modifier is only ~80%. More players, more independent initiative rolls, that becomes 0.8^N, where N is the number of players.
My interpretation is less kind to the ambushers than the 3.x surprise round (which was less kind to the ambushers than the 2014 rules), where the entire ambushing side got to make one action before regular combat rounds. Now it's just one individual whose hostile act has to be completely unperceived, and only the result is apparent.
Frankly, your version is 'surprise might as well not exist'. Take Alert and a high dex. Blunder through the dungeon. Never care that you're surprised or that your perception is -1 or -5 or -20, because surprise doesn't actually do much of anything. Bonus points if you can do it while hiding.
One (1) ambusher against an entire team seems like it would be a pretty rare situation, because the action economy would be lopsided even with an ambush.
In 2014, I would argue that the worst case is not that a single ambusher acts twice before the ambushees; what's actually the worst case is that the ambusher isn't alone and everyone on the ambusher's team gets to act against the ambushees in the first round (and in the second round, who knows how many ambushers rolled higher initiative than a PC and will get a second turn before a PC gets to act).
The change in 2024 is still easier on the ambushees because they get to act in the first round, and that's true even if the ambusher gets their attack off before initiative is rolled. If the ambusher has a team with them, allowing the PC's to act in the first round is still easier than the 2014 version. I'd say there's even a case to be made that if the ambusher gets their attack off before initiative is rolled, they no longer roll initiative with advantage because they've been revealed by their attack - but anyone else on their team who is hidden does roll with advantage. (The ambushees are still surprised and roll initiative with disadvantage, though.)
I agree, but let's be specific:
It's being invisible that gives them advantage. If their invisibility ends because of the initiating attack, yeah, they don't get advantage. If they have greater invisibility, they're still invisible, and still get advantage. (And if they're a Thief with the right Cunning Strike, they're quite possibly still invisible).
If they were a sorceror casting a subtle spell, they never got advantage in the first place, even if the spell should go off before combat starts, and that spell causes combat and surprises their enemies. They weren't ever invisible, but their hostile act was imperceptible until it resolved.
This is assuming that the initiating action exists outside of initiative, which you have mostly failed to persuade anyone of. But yes, three actions before anyone else does something is even worse than two actions.
I think that the initiating action existing outside of initiative makes sense just fine for a completely undetected attacker, and that it makes FAR more sense than having the ambushee potentially being able to react to the undetected attacker before the attack happens.
The fewer the combatants the larger that one individual's impact will be, relatively speaking.
Pentagruel already covered it, but the prior rules had no need for combat events to happen outside of combat. If you attacked someone suddenly, that attack is the one that happened in the surprise round. I am comparing this to what you are doing, which is adding a combat action outside of combat. Which is why the worst case of before is equal to the worst case of your interpretation (albeit with a single ambusher).
Ambushers are likely to have a high Dex already... meaning analyzing it with everyone having the same initiative modifier is probably not an accurate way to go about it. Sure, the rogue has a roughly 20% chance to beat the ambusher in initiative, but you've got to have superhuman rolls to beat them on your wizard or plate-wearing paladin.
In any case, everyone taking Alert and having high Dex is certainly a way for surprise not to have a noticeable effect on your party (I would argue that is kind of the point of the feat), but there's an opportunity cost there, especially if more than one person takes it. And perception is a hell of a lot more than just noticing ambushers. High initiative order isn't going to help you find the secret door, for example.
The Gelatinous Cube example is from 2014. That was with the first round surprised characters don't take any actions, and it specifically said that engulfing the character was the situation before surprise. So yeah, its definitely an improvement in that example. And you keep forgetting that most of the time there will be multiple enemies, and only one of them will get an attack before combat starts and only in the case where they are completely undetected.
Are ambushers likely to have a high initiative? I mean, the person in a party who gets the undetected drop on the enemy will probably be the scout, who is likely to have high dex, true. But what about monsters?
--The Gelatinous Cube has an initiative modifier of -4. It is unlikely to go first, even with advantage from initiative and the entire party being surprised. Oozes and jellies, also likely to be ambushers, also have negative initiative modifiers and are unlikely to go first. I also found the assassin vine at +0, still not setting the world on fire.
--The median monster in the MM has an initiative of +2. That's not very impressive. The average is about 3.5, also not that impressive.
--At the higher end of 'should always be ambushing' non-human monsters, we have the Roper at +5 initiative, and the Mimic, the Piercer, and the Darkmantle, all at +3 initiative. These are not initiatives likely to go first against a party of 4+ characters, nor do they have sufficient stealth to reliably escape notice by passive perception of even a 1st level party. (A wisdom-based character with proficiency in perception expects to automatically detect all of these at level 1 with passive perception. Indeed, only the Roper and the Mimic can pass a DC 15 hide check better than 50% of the time).
--At the high end, we have monsters like Solars, Ancient Dragons, Liches, Colossus, Kraken, Pit Fiend, Balor - not exactly renowned ambushers. The database I'm using didn't put skills in it, but it does have dex saves - none of which are amazing given most of them have proficiency in dex saves and are high CR, so that high initiative isn't from stellar dexterity. Going to guess their stealth checks aren't that great.
--The first stealth attacker i get to going down from the highest initiatives is the Assassin at +10 initiative, which is pretty decent for CR8, and a respectable Stealth +10. But even if he gets one strike in that starts combat, and then acts before the party (3 more attacks), they're at only +7 to hit. Now, he has pretty impressive damage output, but I don't know that one extra attack will make a difference. He gets 3 attacks doing 29 damage each with a crossbow. I doubt the one extra attack at the start of combat will make a difference - if that damage output is a problem, it's a problem at 3 attacks too. The 4th one (by at most one assassin) doesn't really change the encounter math that much.
So most ambush monsters do not have great initiative, nor do they even have great stealth. There's maybe one monster where an ambush is a problem, and one extra attack isn't moving the needle on how much of a problem it is.
(Strangely enough, the higher CR and vaguely similar monster Spy Master has lower initiative, and worse damage per hit by a lot. Something feels off here).
Yes there is one in the DMG 5E24. It clearly mention when the action initiating combat resolve and it's after Initiative
There are no other reference in the game to support the claim that action initiating combat resolves before Initiative.
As this Sage Advice ruling said; activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised and the reference to Gelatinous Cube makes no exception;
So in the Gelatinous Cube example as it relates to Surprise ("A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them."), when Initiative gets rolled, has the cube engulfed the adventurer, or is the text incorrect?
The gelatinous cube engulfs the adventure as its first action. Mechanically speaking this meant (in 2014) that the cube engulfed a PC before any PC took an action, and is thus narratively correct. However, 2024 does not guarantee an ambusher any actions before the ambushees can act, which is why it causes issues with reversal of cause and effect.
And that example is not germane because everyone sees the sorceror start casting a spell. (It's also obviously wrong, because that spell could instead be Friends, and casting Friends cannot possibly always start combat. And no one knows what spell he's casting when he starts casting it!)
(For those who insist the sorceror needs to tell the DM what spell it is, and that which spell can cause different results... that's definitely a time machine. And also, flip the example. It's an NPC that starts casting a spell which could be anything from Friends to Fabricate to Fireball. Does the DM need to tell PCs what spells NPCs are casting before the spell resolves? If the PCs don't get to know in the reverse situation, the DM can't let the NPCs know).
The example is also obviously wrong in another way: the sorceror doesn't have to cast Chromatic Orb, or even cast a spell at all. If initiative really works like they say, and the doppelganger acts before him, the doppelganger acts before he even starts casting a spell. (This discussion makes me miss 1st AD+D segments).
A germane example needs one where the initial hostile action is completely undetected by the other side. An invisible unperceived attacker, or a sorceror casting with subtle spell, or similar. The gelatinous cube example from 2014 is the only germane example I have seen in any rulebook or any SAC discussion.
And you're assuming the consequent, that the first hostile action is 'in combat'. That's what's disputed, so you can't assume that. In the scenarios we're discussing, it's not "in combat", it causes combat to start. If it starts combat, then everything after that is in combat, but it is before combat starting. Causality demands that the thing which starts or triggers a chain of events happens before the events it causes. Usually hostile action will be visible before an attack roll is made, at which point it is proper to roll initiative before an attack. But if there's no perceived threat until the knife appears in someone's back, combat only starts after that.
Assuming the consequent and ignoring what the text actually says. The text literally says the situation where the PC is already engulfed gives the Cube surprise (which is determined before any attacks are made during a combat round, even in 2014). There's no other way to read that text. You have to assume your interpretation of the rules is right, and ignore the actual text to force the example to fit your understanding of the rules to get to your reading.
But that's not an example of gameplay. It's a narrative example, and so cannot be used at all, as it can fit either interpretation.
The cube example? It's given with a very specific order of operations. The cube is undetected until it engulfs a PC. That situation (the engulfed PC) gives the Cube surprise, which means the PC is already engulfed before rolling initiative.
Do you have any other official examples involving a completely undetected attack or attacker?
Exactly, if there's no example of it in 5E24, then there's no rule support for it in 5E24.
And the example in 5E14 you refer too never explicitly say it uses Engulf before initiative. If you carefully read the sentence, you will see it's more narrative than mechanic. Here's why;
The actual Transparent trait says the following"
Meaning that if the A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, you spot it because it has moved.
It says the Cube is unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. Nothing says it's before Initiative considering Surprise is determine at the 1st Combat Step by Step and one can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat.