Every character has the potential to attack once on their turn and once as a reaction. This is nothing unique the Pact of the Chain familiars. It is unique to Pact of the Chain familiars versus standard familiars, but not "most starting characters". The raw damage is barely better than a raging barbarian with a greatsword. The cost for this is one of your attacks and the familiar's Reaction. It's probably worth it at low levels, but it doesn't scale.
The timing of the attack is disputed, per the thread TarodNet linked.
By contrast, True Strike will scale with character level.
[Redacted] Since most of this relies on Invocations, it's easy to trade anything of it at higher levels. The difference to the Barbarian is, that the Barbarian can't make an attack as a reaction at will. And opportunity attacks don't come by that often. As long as the Sphinx is in melee range, it can reaction attack without ceveats. And it's a bit of a meat shield, as it's hit points will most likely be higher than the Warlock's at level 2.
I believe the last Hexblade subclass in UA lets you make an attack as a Bonus Action when you cast a one action spell. It's not quite the same, but 2 attacks plus a multi-attack Eldritch Blast would be problematic.
The Pact of the Chain is not relevant to the True Strike conversation. True Strike does not have a range of Touch and thus has no interaction with familiars. It would be cool though if you could still copy a spell onto your familiar like in 3.x days.
What is relevant, and what is not is not yours to decide. I only showed the OP a way to get around easier at low tier. He can still swap to a whip, or etc. later in his career.
Pact of the Chain has no bearing on the Range of True Strike. It's off topic. If you want to discuss it in another thread, message me and I will pick up the thread there.
How do you do 2 attacks with only one bonus action, when your (magic) action is taken by Eldritch Blast? Afaik, Nick does not work with bonus actions.
As far as I know, you can't. I never said it was possible. I was saying that if you allowed a Warlock to cast Eldritch Blast in place of one of their (up to 3) attacks in an Attack action, it would be problematic. I believe that is the reason it is not allowed. The UA Hexblade would allow you to cast a 1 action spell and then attack with a weapon as a Bonus Action. I understand how you misread what I wrote. I hope this phrasing is clearer.
I think many people were hoping Warlock would get a feature similar to Eldritch Knight and College of Valor Bard, but I think Eldritch Blast is the nail in that coffin. Hex plus 2 attacks, replacing the third with 4 attacks from Eldritch Blast would be problematic. That said, if they had the feature and Eldritch Blast was banned from it (You can do the War Magic thing with a Warlock cantrip that involves no more than one attack roll or saving throw), you could mix in True Strike for minimal benefit (basically for a non-Pact Weapon attack). We'll see what the final version looks like when it is published, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
[...] The Sphinx has a +5 to hit roll, which is in line with most starting characters, and deals 1d4+2d6+3 radiant damage (investment of the Chain Master let's you turn the slashing damage into radiant). IMHO, you'll get way more mileage out of that than with a weapon, or Eldritch Blast at low levels. With the potential to attacks twice in one round (once in your turn, once in it's own turn) even more so. [...]
Just for fairness, the timing for Quick Attack was discussed in Questions about Investment of the Chain Master. In my opinion, the familiar takes the Attack action during your turn, immediately after you take your Bonus Action, but the wording can be read the way you said as well.
Please read more carefully.
I think I did that :D
I wrote it can attack twice in one round, not twice in your turn. One attack happens in your turn, as you forgo one of your attacks, respectively take your attack action to make the familiar attack as a reaction (Pact of the Chain), and the other happens outside of your turn as a result of you spending your bonus action (Investment of the Chain Master). Still, that's potentially 2 attacks in one round.
I was just pointing out that what you're saying isn't the only valid reading. Depending on how you understand the feature, the familiar could attack twice on your own turn (the Warlock one).
You also have this opinion in another related thread:
Thanks for the additional input. I hadn't even thought about that aspect.
Of course it would speed up the whole combat and make it smoother if the Familiar could do both Attacks on the Warlocks turn. And the Warlock gives up his Attack and Bonus Action instead.
But when I read the Text from "Quick Attack" it only sais that the Warlock commands the Familiar to take the Attack Action. It does not specifically sais when that Attack happens.
Since an Attack Action only can be made on your own turn, the Familiar should take the Attack Action on its own turn. But you are right, that is highly debatable.
In the end it's always up to the DM to decide how something works. DM > Rules
It would be so much easier if WotC just rewrites the Find Familiar text (beside like two dozen other vague spells) and adjust it in a way "Simulacrum" works.
(It obeys your commands and acts on your turn in combat. )
That the Familiar just has the same Initiative as the Warlock and acts on its own (with its own Action, Bonus Action, Reaction, Movement) but on the Warlocks turn.
I don't know why WotC has to complicate a spell like Find Familiar in such an unnessecary way and create such "heated" debates as a result.
*edit*: I think some homebrew is a better solution. The Familiar acts on the same turn as the caster. If the Caster is a Warlock with Pact of the Chain, the Warlock then can use his Attack Action to let the Familiar attack. With Investment of the Chain Master the Warlock can further more use his Bonus Action to let the Familiar attack a second time with its Bonus Action. That would solve all the problems I think. And that's what I ask my DM in terms of ruling. It makes it much more smoother to handle combat. Either the WL attacks or the Familiar attacks and everything happens on the same turn.
[...] The Sphinx has a +5 to hit roll, which is in line with most starting characters, and deals 1d4+2d6+3 radiant damage (investment of the Chain Master let's you turn the slashing damage into radiant). IMHO, you'll get way more mileage out of that than with a weapon, or Eldritch Blast at low levels. With the potential to attacks twice in one round (once in your turn, once in it's own turn) even more so. [...]
Just for fairness, the timing for Quick Attack was discussed in Questions about Investment of the Chain Master. In my opinion, the familiar takes the Attack action during your turn, immediately after you take your Bonus Action, but the wording can be read the way you said as well.
I'm just trying to understand why the familiar would make an attack on your turn. The rules for the find familiar spell state (2024):
"Combat. The familiar is an ally to you and your allies. It rolls its own Initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can’t attack, but it can take other actions as normal."
The familiar has its own turn, it acts on its own initiative and it can't attack.
The Pact of the Chain invocation allows:
"Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own with its Reaction."
Specifying that this costs the familiar its reaction implies that the attack takes place on your turn and replaces one of your attacks.
However, the text of the Investment of the Chain Master invocation states:
"Quick Attack. As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action."
There is no requirement for the familiar to use its reaction. This text does not specify the attack happens on your turn and since the familiar can't take attacks normally this would appear to be a method to allow the familiar to make an attack on its own turn, not on the caster's turn. There is no reference here to the Pact of the Chain ability allowing the familiar to make an attack on your turn at the cost of its reaction. This ability allows you to spend a bonus action so the familiar can take the attack action on its turn.
I can see how the Pact of the Chain ability could seem to confuse the issue but only if one assumes that the Investment ability is intended to do the same thing with no cost to the familiar ... however, without the cost of the reaction or any other indication that the attack happens immediately, I think the RAW is pretty clear that it just allows the familiar to take the attack action on its turn.
[...] The Sphinx has a +5 to hit roll, which is in line with most starting characters, and deals 1d4+2d6+3 radiant damage (investment of the Chain Master let's you turn the slashing damage into radiant). IMHO, you'll get way more mileage out of that than with a weapon, or Eldritch Blast at low levels. With the potential to attacks twice in one round (once in your turn, once in it's own turn) even more so. [...]
Just for fairness, the timing for Quick Attack was discussed in Questions about Investment of the Chain Master. In my opinion, the familiar takes the Attack action during your turn, immediately after you take your Bonus Action, but the wording can be read the way you said as well.
[...] "Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own with its Reaction."
Specifying that this costs the familiar its reaction implies that the attack takes place on your turn and replaces one of your attacks.
I'm ruling it this way, but to be honest, this part of the feature could be read as using its Reaction on its own turn rather than yours. I don't believe many people rule it that way (one of the few who does seems to be the Dev)
@Dation If a Warlock forgoes an attack to let his Pact of the Chain familiar attack does it occur immediately or on it's next turn? @JeremyECrawfordI would rule that the warlock commands the familiar to attack, and then the familiar does so on its turn.
However, the text of the Investment of the Chain Master invocation states:
"Quick Attack. As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action."
There is no requirement for the familiar to use its reaction. This text does not specify the attack happens on your turn and since the familiar can't take attacks normally this would appear to be a method to allow the familiar to make an attack on its own turn, not on the caster's turn. There is no reference here to the Pact of the Chain ability allowing the familiar to make an attack on your turn at the cost of its reaction. This ability allows you to spend a bonus action so the familiar can take the attack action on its turn.
Just because it doesn't specify when it happens, it's an assumption to say it occurs on its turn. IMO, the name "Quick Attack" could be a valid reason to consider that it happens immediately, without needing to wait for the familiar's turn. Same as before with Pact of the Chain.
I can see how the Pact of the Chain ability could seem to confuse the issue but only if one assumes that the Investment ability is intended to do the same thing with no cost to the familiar ... however, without the cost of the reaction or any other indication that the attack happens immediately, I think the RAW is pretty clear that it just allows the familiar to take the attack action on its turn.
To me, it costs your Bonus Action, and your familiar can still use a new Action on its turn.
[...] "Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own with its Reaction."
Specifying that this costs the familiar its reaction implies that the attack takes place on your turn and replaces one of your attacks.
I'm ruling it this way, but to be honest, this part of the feature could be read as using its Reaction on its own turn rather than yours. I don't believe many people rule it that way (one of the few who does seems to be the Dev)
@Dation If a Warlock forgoes an attack to let his Pact of the Chain familiar attack does it occur immediately or on it's next turn? @JeremyECrawfordI would rule that the warlock commands the familiar to attack, and then the familiar does so on its turn.
It's pretty likely that he was shooting from the hip, as he was prone to do, and was working entirely from the text he was provided.
In any event, reactions canonically happen right after the thing that causes them, so he was wrong. (I'm sure 2014 has equivalent text, but it's hard to search when a cat has just displaced one's laptop.)
@Dation If a Warlock forgoes an attack to let his Pact of the Chain familiar attack does it occur immediately or on it's next turn? @JeremyECrawfordI would rule that the warlock commands the familiar to attack, and then the familiar does so on its turn.
It's pretty likely that he was shooting from the hip, as he was prone to do, and was working entirely from the text he was provided.
In any event, reactions canonically happen right after the thing that causes them, so he was wrong. (I'm sure 2014 has equivalent text, but it's hard to search when a cat has just displaced one's laptop.)
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a Reaction. A Reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else’s. The Opportunity Attack, described later in this chapter, is the most common type of Reaction.
When you take a Reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the Reaction.
In terms of timing, a Reaction takes place immediately after its trigger unless the Reaction’s description says otherwise.
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's. The opportunity attack, described later in this section, is the most common type of reaction.
When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.
Does the attack granted by the third benefit of the Sentinel feat take place before or after the triggering attack?
The bonus attack takes place after the triggering attack. Here’s why: the feat doesn’t specify the bonus attack’s timing, and when a reaction has no timing specified, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes (DMG, "Adjudicating Reaction Timing"). In contrast, an opportunity attack specifically takes place before its trigger finishes—that is, right before the target creature leaves your reach.
This timing is referenced in the Sage Advice Compendium is also mentioned for the Flash of Genius. Jeremy Crawford's answer is wrong. As of the 2014 DMG, the rules explicitly stated that reactions occur immediately after their trigger unless specified otherwise. The Sage Advice entries and the need for clarity in the 2024 rules may have been a direct result of Crawford's misinformation.
[...] "Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own with its Reaction."
Specifying that this costs the familiar its reaction implies that the attack takes place on your turn and replaces one of your attacks.
I'm ruling it this way, but to be honest, this part of the feature could be read as using its Reaction on its own turn rather than yours. I don't believe many people rule it that way (one of the few who does seems to be the Dev)
@Dation If a Warlock forgoes an attack to let his Pact of the Chain familiar attack does it occur immediately or on it's next turn? @JeremyECrawfordI would rule that the warlock commands the familiar to attack, and then the familiar does so on its turn.
It's pretty likely that he was shooting from the hip, as he was prone to do, and was working entirely from the text he was provided.
In any event, reactions canonically happen right after the thing that causes them, so he was wrong. (I'm sure 2014 has equivalent text, but it's hard to search when a cat has just displaced one's laptop.)
[Redacted] Since most of this relies on Invocations, it's easy to trade anything of it at higher levels. The difference to the Barbarian is, that the Barbarian can't make an attack as a reaction at will. And opportunity attacks don't come by that often. As long as the Sphinx is in melee range, it can reaction attack without ceveats. And it's a bit of a meat shield, as it's hit points will most likely be higher than the Warlock's at level 2.
Pact of the Chain has no bearing on the Range of True Strike. It's off topic. If you want to discuss it in another thread, message me and I will pick up the thread there.
As far as I know, you can't. I never said it was possible. I was saying that if you allowed a Warlock to cast Eldritch Blast in place of one of their (up to 3) attacks in an Attack action, it would be problematic. I believe that is the reason it is not allowed. The UA Hexblade would allow you to cast a 1 action spell and then attack with a weapon as a Bonus Action. I understand how you misread what I wrote. I hope this phrasing is clearer.
I think many people were hoping Warlock would get a feature similar to Eldritch Knight and College of Valor Bard, but I think Eldritch Blast is the nail in that coffin. Hex plus 2 attacks, replacing the third with 4 attacks from Eldritch Blast would be problematic. That said, if they had the feature and Eldritch Blast was banned from it (You can do the War Magic thing with a Warlock cantrip that involves no more than one attack roll or saving throw), you could mix in True Strike for minimal benefit (basically for a non-Pact Weapon attack). We'll see what the final version looks like when it is published, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I think I did that :D
I was just pointing out that what you're saying isn't the only valid reading. Depending on how you understand the feature, the familiar could attack twice on your own turn (the Warlock one).
You also have this opinion in another related thread:
I'm just trying to understand why the familiar would make an attack on your turn. The rules for the find familiar spell state (2024):
"Combat. The familiar is an ally to you and your allies. It rolls its own Initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can’t attack, but it can take other actions as normal."
The familiar has its own turn, it acts on its own initiative and it can't attack.
The Pact of the Chain invocation allows:
"Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own with its Reaction."
Specifying that this costs the familiar its reaction implies that the attack takes place on your turn and replaces one of your attacks.
However, the text of the Investment of the Chain Master invocation states:
"Quick Attack. As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action."
There is no requirement for the familiar to use its reaction. This text does not specify the attack happens on your turn and since the familiar can't take attacks normally this would appear to be a method to allow the familiar to make an attack on its own turn, not on the caster's turn. There is no reference here to the Pact of the Chain ability allowing the familiar to make an attack on your turn at the cost of its reaction. This ability allows you to spend a bonus action so the familiar can take the attack action on its turn.
I can see how the Pact of the Chain ability could seem to confuse the issue but only if one assumes that the Investment ability is intended to do the same thing with no cost to the familiar ... however, without the cost of the reaction or any other indication that the attack happens immediately, I think the RAW is pretty clear that it just allows the familiar to take the attack action on its turn.
I'm ruling it this way, but to be honest, this part of the feature could be read as using its Reaction on its own turn rather than yours. I don't believe many people rule it that way (one of the few who does seems to be the Dev)
Just because it doesn't specify when it happens, it's an assumption to say it occurs on its turn. IMO, the name "Quick Attack" could be a valid reason to consider that it happens immediately, without needing to wait for the familiar's turn. Same as before with Pact of the Chain.
To me, it costs your Bonus Action, and your familiar can still use a new Action on its turn.
It's pretty likely that he was shooting from the hip, as he was prone to do, and was working entirely from the text he was provided.
In any event, reactions canonically happen right after the thing that causes them, so he was wrong. (I'm sure 2014 has equivalent text, but it's hard to search when a cat has just displaced one's laptop.)
It did, but not as cleanly.
2024 Reactions:
2014 Reactions:
2014 Sentinel Sage Advice:
This timing is referenced in the Sage Advice Compendium is also mentioned for the Flash of Genius. Jeremy Crawford's answer is wrong. As of the 2014 DMG, the rules explicitly stated that reactions occur immediately after their trigger unless specified otherwise. The Sage Advice entries and the need for clarity in the 2024 rules may have been a direct result of Crawford's misinformation.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I agree with you.
EDIT: big hug to your cat!