I am a bit confused about 2 things here. First thing here being if the 2 therms are referring to the same thing or not? And the second thing would be what exactly is included in the 2 following cases?
Case 1: 2014 Version of True Polymorph:
"The target’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the new form, but it retains its Hit Points, Hit Point Dice, alignment, and personality."
Case 2:
2024 Version of Magic Jar:
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature, though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class features. If the target has any class levels, you can't use any of its class features."
If I did understand it correctly then they are the same? But if a Stat Block has something like a Lair Action then it's not part of the Game Statistics based on what he wrote there.
So do I basically gain the entire Stat Block outside of what is mentioned there?
So if I use a Red Dragon in both cases then I would be a Red Dragon in case a just with my own Personality, Hit Points, Hit Points Dice and Personality or a Red Dragon with my Alignment, CHA, WIS and INT and everything that my Class has like casting spells and so on?
But what about the remaining parts of my character? Are Species Traits gone, Feats and Magic Item effects gone or do they still apply? Like for example Additional Hit Points from the Tough Feat, Resistance to Necrotic and Radiant Damage from the Celestial Resistance of an Aasimar or the benefit from the Magic Item Boots of Elvenkind.
(that description for Magic Jar is from the 2014 spell, right? I'm not sure if you're using that version of the rules for your questions)
Basically, you retain only what the spells states. So you don't keep your traits, feats or features for the next two spells. There are also rules for equipment:
- 2014 Polymorph: [...] The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality. [...] The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.
- 2014 True Polymorph: [...] The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality. [...] The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.
But not all spells work exactly the same way. 2014 Shapechange is different, for example:
[...] Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus listed in its statistics is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus in place of yours. You can't use any legendary actions or lair actions of the new form. [...] You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so. [...]
Also, there's a specific rule in the 2014 MM related to Legendary Creatures that affects too:
If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn't gain that form's legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects.
Just in case, if you're using the 2024 rules, things are different.
- That 2014 MM quoted rule is not present, so you could use the Legendary Actions or Lair Actions of the creature with the 2024 True Polymorph or Shapechange spells.
- The 2024 Shapechange spell doesn't have the following line from the 2014 Shapechange: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so."
Oh yes my Bad i switched up the Number... the Magic jar section is a copy from 2014 and the True Polymorph section is from 2024 sorry.
So in case of True Polymorph i would keep my Items but i would lose any of its benefits like if one gives me a +2 DEX then the +2 would be gone as soon as i use the Spell successfully. And i would not gain anything of what the Monster Manuel mentioned.
But Magic jar is different i believe? Because i don't assume the legendary creature (if Red Dragon counts as one) and rather posses it. Also the 2014 version of Magic Jar doesn't mention anything about Magic Items, Species or Feats, does that mean i simply cant use them? Like if i posses the Red Dragon (ignoring that the Spell only for Humanoids for this example) then use Shapechange or True Polymorph to regain for example the shape of my original Body and then take Armor or other Stuff before the Spell ends. What happens with the Items?
So in theory if the DM allows 2014 Spells while playing with 2024 rules, I could posses a Legendary Creature with 2014 magic Jar to get all its Legendary/Lair Actions?
Oh yes my Bad i switched up the Number... the Magic jar section is a copy from 2014 and the True Polymorph section is from 2024 sorry.
Don't worry at all!
So in case of True Polymorph i would keep my Items but i would lose any of its benefits like if one gives me a +2 DEX then the +2 would be gone as soon as i use the Spell successfully. And i would not gain anything of what the Monster Manuel mentioned.
Yeah, because the gear melds into the new form.
But Magic jar is different i believe? Because i don't assume the legendary creature (if Red Dragon counts as one) and rather posses it. Also the 2014 version of Magic Jar doesn't mention anything about Magic Items, Species or Feats, does that mean i simply cant use them? Like if i posses the Red Dragon (ignoring that the Spell only for Humanoids for this example) then use Shapechange or True Polymorph to regain for example the shape of my original Body and then take Armor or other Stuff before the Spell ends. What happens with the Items?
Yeah, for 2014 Magic Jar, your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature.
Once you possess a creature’s body, you control it. Your Hit Points, Hit Point Dice, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Speed, and senses are replaced by the creature’s. Youotherwise keep your game statistics.
In this version of the spell, you don't get the statistics of the chosen creature.
In any case, as I understand it, with Shapechange, the other creature/form isn't a specific individual with all their real equipment, just that generic type of creature. But I guess this is debatable.
So in theory if the DM allows 2014 Spells while playing with 2024 rules, I could posses a Legendary Creature with 2014 magic Jar to get all its Legendary/Lair Actions?
Uh, I think that's a question for your DM, really :D
As you can see, there are some differences, and I don't think it's a good idea to mix versions. But that's just my opinion.
Also, as you said, Magic Jar is for possessing humanoids.
Yeah i know the 2024 version of Magic Jar gives you a lot less compared to the 2014 version. But could i do that with the 2014 version then? And with Shapechange/True Polymorph, i basically only need to become a random Human or Humanoid Class to equip the old Equipment that is still on my old Body. So i was wondering if i just grab the equipment from the floor would it still be usable if i transform back into the Dragon?
Yeah i know the 2024 version of Magic Jar gives you a lot less compared to the 2014 version. But could i do that with the 2014 version then? And with Shapechange/True Polymorph, i basically only need to become a random Human or Humanoid Class to equip the old Equipment that is still on my old Body. So i was wondering if i just grab the equipment from the floor would it still be usable if i transform back into the Dragon?
Assuming your DM allows using Magic Jar to possess creatures other than humanoids (e.g., a dragon in your scenario), I'd say you could simply grab your gear as a dragon or another form from your living body, but your idea could work too (if that equipment has the right size and shape)
Just for reference, this is the ability for an Adult Gold Dragon:
Change Shape. The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon's choice).
In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.
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I am a bit confused about 2 things here. First thing here being if the 2 therms are referring to the same thing or not? And the second thing would be what exactly is included in the 2 following cases?
Case 1:
2014 Version of True Polymorph:
"The target’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the new form, but it retains its Hit Points, Hit Point Dice, alignment, and personality."
Case 2:
2024 Version of Magic Jar:
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature, though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class features. If the target has any class levels, you can't use any of its class features."
Based on this discussion:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/138783/what-all-is-included-in-a-creatures-game-statistics
If I did understand it correctly then they are the same? But if a Stat Block has something like a Lair Action then it's not part of the Game Statistics based on what he wrote there.
So do I basically gain the entire Stat Block outside of what is mentioned there?
So if I use a Red Dragon in both cases then I would be a Red Dragon in case a just with my own Personality, Hit Points, Hit Points Dice and Personality or a Red Dragon with my Alignment, CHA, WIS and INT and everything that my Class has like casting spells and so on?
But what about the remaining parts of my character? Are Species Traits gone, Feats and Magic Item effects gone or do they still apply? Like for example Additional Hit Points from the Tough Feat, Resistance to Necrotic and Radiant Damage from the Celestial Resistance of an Aasimar or the benefit from the Magic Item Boots of Elvenkind.
(that description for Magic Jar is from the 2014 spell, right? I'm not sure if you're using that version of the rules for your questions)
Basically, you retain only what the spells states. So you don't keep your traits, feats or features for the next two spells. There are also rules for equipment:
- 2014 Polymorph: [...] The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality. [...] The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.
- 2014 True Polymorph: [...] The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality. [...] The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.
But not all spells work exactly the same way. 2014 Shapechange is different, for example:
Also, there's a specific rule in the 2014 MM related to Legendary Creatures that affects too:
Just in case, if you're using the 2024 rules, things are different.
- That 2014 MM quoted rule is not present, so you could use the Legendary Actions or Lair Actions of the creature with the 2024 True Polymorph or Shapechange spells.
- The 2024 Shapechange spell doesn't have the following line from the 2014 Shapechange: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so."
Oh yes my Bad i switched up the Number... the Magic jar section is a copy from 2014 and the True Polymorph section is from 2024 sorry.
So in case of True Polymorph i would keep my Items but i would lose any of its benefits like if one gives me a +2 DEX then the +2 would be gone as soon as i use the Spell successfully. And i would not gain anything of what the Monster Manuel mentioned.
But Magic jar is different i believe? Because i don't assume the legendary creature (if Red Dragon counts as one) and rather posses it. Also the 2014 version of Magic Jar doesn't mention anything about Magic Items, Species or Feats, does that mean i simply cant use them? Like if i posses the Red Dragon (ignoring that the Spell only for Humanoids for this example) then use Shapechange or True Polymorph to regain for example the shape of my original Body and then take Armor or other Stuff before the Spell ends. What happens with the Items?
So in theory if the DM allows 2014 Spells while playing with 2024 rules, I could posses a Legendary Creature with 2014 magic Jar to get all its Legendary/Lair Actions?
Don't worry at all!
Yeah, because the gear melds into the new form.
Yeah, for 2014 Magic Jar, your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature.
2024 Magic Jar is different:
In this version of the spell, you don't get the statistics of the chosen creature.
In any case, as I understand it, with Shapechange, the other creature/form isn't a specific individual with all their real equipment, just that generic type of creature. But I guess this is debatable.
EDIT: for clarity.
Uh, I think that's a question for your DM, really :D
As you can see, there are some differences, and I don't think it's a good idea to mix versions. But that's just my opinion.
Also, as you said, Magic Jar is for possessing humanoids.
Yeah i know the 2024 version of Magic Jar gives you a lot less compared to the 2014 version. But could i do that with the 2014 version then? And with Shapechange/True Polymorph, i basically only need to become a random Human or Humanoid Class to equip the old Equipment that is still on my old Body. So i was wondering if i just grab the equipment from the floor would it still be usable if i transform back into the Dragon?
Assuming your DM allows using Magic Jar to possess creatures other than humanoids (e.g., a dragon in your scenario), I'd say you could simply grab your gear as a dragon or another form from your living body, but your idea could work too (if that equipment has the right size and shape)
Just for reference, this is the ability for an Adult Gold Dragon: