I have a level 3 Thief. He took Magic Initiate feat. He also has Calligraphy Tools and proficiency in Arcana. According to the crafting rules he has everything he needs to create scrolls which he spends a lot of downtime doing... cranking out True Strike scrolls. I don't think there are any questions or concerns about this.
However, there seems to be some questions about whether he can use the scrolls he is crafting. The DMG says: If the spell is on your spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without Material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible.
And the PHB Magic Initiate feat says: You learn two cantrips of your choice from the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell list. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this feat’s spells (choose when you select this feat). ... and: Whenever you gain a new level, you can replace one of the spells you chose for this feat with a different spell of the same level from the chosen spell list.
So it appears to me that the Magic Initiate feat provides the spell list required to cast a spell scroll.
But I keep hearing that the Thief in this case is still not allowed cast a the spell scroll. It feels to me that he meets the requirements. Additionally, it seems absurd that he can craft a spell scroll but is unable to read it.
The thing is, in the case of the Thief, the ability to use spell scrolls is specifically a level 13 feature
Level 13: Use Magic Device
You’ve learned how to maximize use of magic items, granting you the following benefits.
Attunement. You can attune to up to four magic items at once.
Charges. Whenever you use a magic item property that expends charges, roll 1d6. On a roll of 6, you use the property without expending the charges.
Scrolls. You can use any Spell Scroll, using Intelligence as your spellcasting ability for the spell. If the spell is a cantrip or a level 1 spell, you can cast it reliably. If the scroll contains a higher-level spell, you must first succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check (DC 10 plus the spell’s level). On a successful check, you cast the spell from the scroll. On a failed check, the scroll disintegrates.
There's two ways to look at that
The stickler way to view it is that 'jumping the queue' on that feature and getting it at a much earlier level via an Origin Feat is power creep, and shouldn't be allowed
The more player-friendly way to look at it is that the feat only lets you access a very limited subset of spell scrolls, and the level 13 feature then allows your character to use spell scrolls from any class list, so it still has plenty of value
I'm not sure there's a RAW answer though, so it'll really be up to your DM. Magic Initiate doesn't give you an actual Spellcasting feature tied to a spell list, and spell scrolls are specifically looking for a class spell list and not a character's personal one -- otherwise the "If the spell is on your spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast the spell" rule makes no sense
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The thing is, in the case of the Thief, the ability to use spell scrolls is specifically a level 13 feature
Level 13: Use Magic Device
You’ve learned how to maximize use of magic items, granting you the following benefits.
Attunement. You can attune to up to four magic items at once.
Charges. Whenever you use a magic item property that expends charges, roll 1d6. On a roll of 6, you use the property without expending the charges.
Scrolls. You can use any Spell Scroll, using Intelligence as your spellcasting ability for the spell. If the spell is a cantrip or a level 1 spell, you can cast it reliably. If the scroll contains a higher-level spell, you must first succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check (DC 10 plus the spell’s level). On a successful check, you cast the spell from the scroll. On a failed check, the scroll disintegrates.
There's two ways to look at that
The stickler way to view it is that 'jumping the queue' on that feature and getting it at a much earlier level via an Origin Feat is power creep, and shouldn't be allowed
The more player-friendly way to look at it is that the feat only lets you access a very limited subset of spell scrolls, and the level 13 feat then allows your character to use spell scrolls from any class list, so it still has plenty of value
I'm not sure there's a RAW answer though, so it'll really be up to your DM. Magic Initiate doesn't give you an actual Spellcasting feature tied to a spell list, and spell scrolls are specifically looking for a class spell list and not a character's personal one -- otherwise the "If the spell is on your spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast the spell" rule makes no sense
I don't really see it as jumping the queue. After all, I already "paid" for Magic Initiate. And if that's inadequate (which seems to be the consensus so far) then I can take 1 level in Wizard and jump the queue that way. And, of course, as wagnarokkr suggested, this is really all about using Fast Hands.
It sort of sounds like getting a different, more generally useful, Origin feat and dipping once into Wizard is the best solution to land where I think this Thief should be. Not as efficient as it defers the incredible Thief capstone a level, but answers the issue and even gives him more flexibility in spells and scroll crafting.
I have a level 3 Thief. He took Magic Initiate feat. He also has Calligraphy Tools and proficiency in Arcana. According to the crafting rules he has everything he needs to create scrolls which he spends a lot of downtime doing... cranking out True Strike scrolls. I don't think there are any questions or concerns about this.
However, there seems to be some questions about whether he can use the scrolls he is crafting. The DMG says: If the spell is on your spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without Material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible.
And the PHB Magic Initiate feat says: You learn two cantrips of your choice from the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell list. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this feat’s spells (choose when you select this feat). ... and: Whenever you gain a new level, you can replace one of the spells you chose for this feat with a different spell of the same level from the chosen spell list.
So it appears to me that the Magic Initiate feat provides the spell list required to cast a spell scroll.
But I keep hearing that the Thief in this case is still not allowed cast a the spell scroll. It feels to me that he meets the requirements. Additionally, it seems absurd that he can craft a spell scroll but is unable to read it.
At least my opinion there is no longer right (though I think the outcome is still valid), because after I posted, the SAC was updated with the next question:
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
So RAW I agree with Anton and wagnarokkr on this, even if it doesn’t make much sense.
---
And now, in case it helps, a little thread archaeology!
After the 2024 SAC clarified what counts as a class spell:
Before the 2024 SAC, the mantra was just that "spells learned through feats or species traits don't count as class spells", and some people disagreed (giving good reasons, tbh):
So RAW I agree with Anton and wagnarokkr on this, even if it doesn’t make much sense.
Honestly, I don't think the general restriction on scrolls having to be from your class spell list makes any sense at all anyway, and although it hasn't ever actually come up in any game I've run, I doubt I'd bother enforcing it. Baldur's Gate III abandoned it entirely and it's fine.
So RAW I agree with Anton and wagnarokkr on this, even if it doesn’t make much sense.
Honestly, I don't think the general restriction on scrolls having to be from your class spell list makes any sense at all anyway, and although it hasn't ever actually come up in any game I've run, I doubt I'd bother enforcing it. Baldur's Gate III abandoned it entirely and it's fine.
I think it makes sense specifically for wizards, for whom spell scrolls are worth a lot more for obvious reasons
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So RAW I agree with Anton and wagnarokkr on this, even if it doesn’t make much sense.
Honestly, I don't think the general restriction on scrolls having to be from your class spell list makes any sense at all anyway, and although it hasn't ever actually come up in any game I've run, I doubt I'd bother enforcing it. Baldur's Gate III abandoned it entirely and it's fine.
I think it makes sense specifically for wizards, for whom spell scrolls are worth a lot more for obvious reasons
Well, to be clear I'm talking about the restriction on which spell scrolls you can use to cast a spell. The Wizard's ability to copy spell scrolls into their spellbook has a separate restriction limiting it to only spells from the Wizard list, and I do think that makes sense and should continue to exist.
True strike being a cantrip can be cast every turn, so why does the player need a scroll?
So that they can use the Thief's "Fast Hands" feature to cast the spell as a bonus action.
(Which opens up their main action to Ready an attack and, pretty reliably, proc Sneak Attack twice per round.)
I suspect the Thief would be better off crafting or acquiring an Enspelled Weapon of True Strike.
Definitely a better option in the long run. Crafting a cantrip-enspelled weapon takes about 10 times the time and gold as crafting a cantrip scroll, and they're probably planning on using this move more than ten times in their life.
I draw a distinction between Magic Initiate and Subclasses that can select spells from the Wizard spell list such as the Eldritch Knight; the latter can read Spell Scroll as explained in this Sage Advice because its the spell list used by the subclass, which is is different from spell list used by your feat.
For you to meet a Spell Scroll’s requirement, the spell on the scroll needs to be on whatever spell list is used by your class. Here are two examples. If you’re a Cleric, the spell must be on the Cleric spell list, and if you’re a Fighter with the Eldritch Knight subclass, the spell must be on the Wizard spell list, because that is the spell list used by your subclass.
Why is the True Strike not on his spell list (note that the DMG does not say "class spell list", only "spell list")? Given that a) the Thief knows and can cast the spell, b) the spell had to be chosen from a specified list, and c) the spell can be exchanged upon gaining levels, but only for another spell on that same list; it is pretty obvious that there is a spell list that is specific to that character, and that True Strike is on it. The Thief very clearly has a spell list.
Regardless of the RAW, or RAI interpretations, consider this: it takes the Thief 1 day and 15 gold to craft each scroll, which he intends to spend a Bonus Action to use every round. Bonus Actions are more precious to Rogues than to any other class, and he is willing to (potentially) burn through a week's worth of downtime in every combat. A feat, a tool proficiency, a Bonus Action, downtime, and gold for an attack that doesn't use their primary attribute... Why bother saying no?
Why is the True Strike not on his spell list (note that the DMG does not say "class spell list", only "spell list")? Given that a) the Thief knows and can cast the spell, b) the spell had to be chosen from a specified list, and c) the spell can be exchanged upon gaining levels, but only for another spell on that same list; it is pretty obvious that there is a spell list that is specific to that character, and that True Strike is on it. The Thief very clearly has a spell list.
The reason why that isn't the case is explained in the post directly above yours. It's also laid out in this Sage Advice question from the newer Sage Advice set, which says:
Which Spell Scrolls can Bards understand—spells from the Bard list only, or spells from the Bard list plus spells from Magical Secrets?
A Bard can use any Spell Scroll that has a Bard spell on it. This includes any spells the Bard has prepared through their Magical Secrets feature.
This makes it pretty clear what the intent of the rule is, even if it doesn't actually say the word "class".
Regardless of the RAW, or RAI interpretations, consider this: it takes the Thief 1 day and 15 gold to craft each scroll, which he intends to spend a Bonus Action to use every round. Bonus Actions are more precious to Rogues than to any other class, and he is willing to (potentially) burn through a week's worth of downtime in every combat. A feat, a tool proficiency, a Bonus Action, downtime, and gold for an attack that doesn't use their primary attribute... Why bother saying no?
As I said before, I think this whole restriction is silly and shouldn't exist at all. But this is specifically the forum for discussing what the rules actually are, not what we think they should be.
I have a level 3 Thief. He took Magic Initiate feat. He also has Calligraphy Tools and proficiency in Arcana. According to the crafting rules he has everything he needs to create scrolls which he spends a lot of downtime doing... cranking out True Strike scrolls. I don't think there are any questions or concerns about this.
However, there seems to be some questions about whether he can use the scrolls he is crafting. The DMG says: If the spell is on your spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without Material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible.
And the PHB Magic Initiate feat says: You learn two cantrips of your choice from the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell list. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this feat’s spells (choose when you select this feat). ... and: Whenever you gain a new level, you can replace one of the spells you chose for this feat with a different spell of the same level from the chosen spell list.
So it appears to me that the Magic Initiate feat provides the spell list required to cast a spell scroll.
But I keep hearing that the Thief in this case is still not allowed cast a the spell scroll. It feels to me that he meets the requirements. Additionally, it seems absurd that he can craft a spell scroll but is unable to read it.
Are there specific rulings on this somewhere?
The thing is, in the case of the Thief, the ability to use spell scrolls is specifically a level 13 feature
There's two ways to look at that
The stickler way to view it is that 'jumping the queue' on that feature and getting it at a much earlier level via an Origin Feat is power creep, and shouldn't be allowed
The more player-friendly way to look at it is that the feat only lets you access a very limited subset of spell scrolls, and the level 13 feature then allows your character to use spell scrolls from any class list, so it still has plenty of value
I'm not sure there's a RAW answer though, so it'll really be up to your DM. Magic Initiate doesn't give you an actual Spellcasting feature tied to a spell list, and spell scrolls are specifically looking for a class spell list and not a character's personal one -- otherwise the "If the spell is on your spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast the spell" rule makes no sense
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The player can cast true strike, according to the DM.
The player can create a true strike scroll according to the DM.
True strike being a cantrip can be cast every turn, so why does the player need a scroll?
So obviously not the DM based on his above listed approvals, who says the player can't cast true strike?
So that they can use the Thief's "Fast Hands" feature to cast the spell as a bonus action.
It doesn't really work, though, because Magic Initiate doesn't add its granted spells to the character's class spell list.
pronouns: he/she/they
I don't really see it as jumping the queue. After all, I already "paid" for Magic Initiate. And if that's inadequate (which seems to be the consensus so far) then I can take 1 level in Wizard and jump the queue that way. And, of course, as wagnarokkr suggested, this is really all about using Fast Hands.
It sort of sounds like getting a different, more generally useful, Origin feat and dipping once into Wizard is the best solution to land where I think this Thief should be. Not as efficient as it defers the incredible Thief capstone a level, but answers the issue and even gives him more flexibility in spells and scroll crafting.
A similar question was asked in Scribe Scroll clarification
At least my opinion there is no longer right (though I think the outcome is still valid), because after I posted, the SAC was updated with the next question:
So RAW I agree with Anton and wagnarokkr on this, even if it doesn’t make much sense.
---
And now, in case it helps, a little thread archaeology!
After the 2024 SAC clarified what counts as a class spell:
Before the 2024 SAC, the mantra was just that "spells learned through feats or species traits don't count as class spells", and some people disagreed (giving good reasons, tbh):
Honestly, I don't think the general restriction on scrolls having to be from your class spell list makes any sense at all anyway, and although it hasn't ever actually come up in any game I've run, I doubt I'd bother enforcing it. Baldur's Gate III abandoned it entirely and it's fine.
pronouns: he/she/they
I think it makes sense specifically for wizards, for whom spell scrolls are worth a lot more for obvious reasons
It's almost counter-intuitive for something like, say, a cleric making cure wounds or lesser restoration scrolls
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Well, to be clear I'm talking about the restriction on which spell scrolls you can use to cast a spell. The Wizard's ability to copy spell scrolls into their spellbook has a separate restriction limiting it to only spells from the Wizard list, and I do think that makes sense and should continue to exist.
pronouns: he/she/they
(Which opens up their main action to Ready an attack and, pretty reliably, proc Sneak Attack twice per round.)
I suspect the Thief would be better off crafting or acquiring an Enspelled Weapon of True Strike.
Definitely a better option in the long run. Crafting a cantrip-enspelled weapon takes about 10 times the time and gold as crafting a cantrip scroll, and they're probably planning on using this move more than ten times in their life.
pronouns: he/she/they
I draw a distinction between Magic Initiate and Subclasses that can select spells from the Wizard spell list such as the Eldritch Knight; the latter can read Spell Scroll as explained in this Sage Advice because its the spell list used by the subclass, which is is different from spell list used by your feat.
Why is the True Strike not on his spell list (note that the DMG does not say "class spell list", only "spell list")? Given that a) the Thief knows and can cast the spell, b) the spell had to be chosen from a specified list, and c) the spell can be exchanged upon gaining levels, but only for another spell on that same list; it is pretty obvious that there is a spell list that is specific to that character, and that True Strike is on it. The Thief very clearly has a spell list.
Regardless of the RAW, or RAI interpretations, consider this: it takes the Thief 1 day and 15 gold to craft each scroll, which he intends to spend a Bonus Action to use every round. Bonus Actions are more precious to Rogues than to any other class, and he is willing to (potentially) burn through a week's worth of downtime in every combat. A feat, a tool proficiency, a Bonus Action, downtime, and gold for an attack that doesn't use their primary attribute... Why bother saying no?
The reason why that isn't the case is explained in the post directly above yours. It's also laid out in this Sage Advice question from the newer Sage Advice set, which says:
This makes it pretty clear what the intent of the rule is, even if it doesn't actually say the word "class".
As I said before, I think this whole restriction is silly and shouldn't exist at all. But this is specifically the forum for discussing what the rules actually are, not what we think they should be.
pronouns: he/she/they
I accept that this is the forum for discussing the rules as they are, but also how and when they should be applied.