Player has Proficiency in a skill. So that means they add their Prof Bonus to their attribute when making a check, right?
Now, player has tools but no proficiency in skill. What do they add?
Player has tools, is proficient in skill, but is not proficient in tools. What do they add?
Player is proficient in skill and in tools and has tools. What do they add?
What I'm tripping on here is that it SEEMS like our Bard, who has proficency in Performance and proficiency with a lute, would be rolling at Attribute + Prof Bonus and with advantage.
Now, player has tools but no proficiency in skill. What do they add?
Just the ability modifier. Using a tool you don't have proficiency in doesn't change the roll, but the use of a tool might be required for some checks to be made at all (e.g. you can't pick a lock without Thieves' Tools, proficient or otherwise).
What I'm tripping on here is that it SEEMS like our Bard, who has proficency in Performance and proficiency with a lute, would be rolling at Attribute + Prof Bonus and with advantage.
Just the ability modifier. Using a tool you don't have proficiency in doesn't change the roll, but the use of a tool might be required for some checks to be made at all (e.g. you can't pick a lock without Thieves' Tools, proficient or otherwise).
This box of Bobby Pins I found next to that stack of Caps says otherwise. :)
Jokes aside, thank you for the clear recap of the rules. This is the first time, like EVER, I've longed for ADnD's "only thieves make skill checks, here are the percentages".
Now, player has tools but no proficiency in skill. What do they add?
Just the ability modifier. Using a tool you don't have proficiency in doesn't change the roll, but the use of a tool might be required for some checks to be made at all (e.g. you can't pick a lock without Thieves' Tools, proficient or otherwise). [...]
LanternNoir, related to Thieves' Tools (well, and to all the other good wagnarokkr explanations too), there's a summary by Stabbey_TC that I consider pretty good. Even though it focuses on Thieves' Tools, it's also a good example of all the possible combinations, including Expertise:
You need to have Thieves' Tools to attempt to pick the lock at all, if you don't have any, you (probably) can't try and improvise (unless you really beg the DM and they agree).
If you have Thieves' Tools, you make the pick using your Sleight of Hand skill.
If you have proficiency in one of Thieves' Tools or Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check normally, adding your proficiency bonus.
If you are proficient in both Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check with advantage, adding your proficiency bonus.
If you have Expertise in Sleight of Hand (you can no longer have Expertise in a tool), you add double your proficiency bonus (or rather, you use the already-doubled value beside Sleight of Hand).
This seems almost identical to a question that came up on the discord the other day, but actually is the one situation not covered in Stabbey's post. What happens if you have expertise in SoH and proficiency in Thieve's Tools? The wording on the tools seems to point that you would use your regular proficiency bonus with advantage, rather than using the expertise bonus, but I'm more inclined towards the argument that you can choose which proficiency (choose expertise, you dolt!).
This seems almost identical to a question that came up on the discord the other day, but actually is the one situation not covered in Stabbey's post. What happens if you have expertise in SoH and proficiency in Thieve's Tools? The wording on the tools seems to point that you would use your regular proficiency bonus with advantage, rather than using the expertise bonus, but I'm more inclined towards the argument that you can choose which proficiency (choose expertise, you dolt!).
Isn't this covered in the last bullet? In any case, I think it's all together. Following the same example, you're making a Sleight of Hand check (so x2 PB with Expertise) using the Tool which you also have proficiency with. And because you have proficiency in a skill that's used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too.
Yeah. The ending comments of that thread played out in real time just yesterday in the discord (or was it two days ago?). The main argument was that the tool rules superseded the skill rules, and they only talk about adding your proficiency bonus for being proficient in the tool (i.e. no expertise if proficient in the tool). Like I said, though, I agree with wildbill and you all in that it opens up another option, mostly because the former really doesn't sound intended.
Yeah. The ending comments of that thread played out in real time just yesterday in the discord (or was it two days ago?). The main argument was that the tool rules superseded the skill rules, and they only talk about adding your proficiency bonus for being proficient in the tool (i.e. no expertise if proficient in the tool). Like I said, though, I agree with wildbill and you all in that it opens up another option, mostly because the former really doesn't sound intended.
I would say that the Expertise rules are more specific than the proficiency rules, whether we are talking about skills or tools.
Also, while it is included in Stabby_TC's post, I want to call out a scenario that OP didn't mention. If you have the tools and proficiency in those tools, but no skill proficiency, you add your proficiency bonus and attribute modifier.
Okay, help an old DM out.
Player has Proficiency in a skill. So that means they add their Prof Bonus to their attribute when making a check, right?
Now, player has tools but no proficiency in skill. What do they add?
Player has tools, is proficient in skill, but is not proficient in tools. What do they add?
Player is proficient in skill and in tools and has tools. What do they add?
What I'm tripping on here is that it SEEMS like our Bard, who has proficency in Performance and proficiency with a lute, would be rolling at Attribute + Prof Bonus and with advantage.
Ant that feels off....
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
Correct.
Just the ability modifier. Using a tool you don't have proficiency in doesn't change the roll, but the use of a tool might be required for some checks to be made at all (e.g. you can't pick a lock without Thieves' Tools, proficient or otherwise).
The ability modifier and the proficiency bonus.
The ability modifier and the proficiency bonus, and under the 2024 rules they roll with advantage.
pronouns: he/she/they
Nevertheless, that is correct.
pronouns: he/she/they
This box of Bobby Pins I found next to that stack of Caps says otherwise. :)
Jokes aside, thank you for the clear recap of the rules. This is the first time, like EVER, I've longed for ADnD's "only thieves make skill checks, here are the percentages".
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
Happy to help!
pronouns: he/she/they
LanternNoir, related to Thieves' Tools (well, and to all the other good wagnarokkr explanations too), there's a summary by Stabbey_TC that I consider pretty good. Even though it focuses on Thieves' Tools, it's also a good example of all the possible combinations, including Expertise:
This seems almost identical to a question that came up on the discord the other day, but actually is the one situation not covered in Stabbey's post. What happens if you have expertise in SoH and proficiency in Thieve's Tools? The wording on the tools seems to point that you would use your regular proficiency bonus with advantage, rather than using the expertise bonus, but I'm more inclined towards the argument that you can choose which proficiency (choose expertise, you dolt!).
Isn't this covered in the last bullet? In any case, I think it's all together. Following the same example, you're making a Sleight of Hand check (so x2 PB with Expertise) using the Tool which you also have proficiency with. And because you have proficiency in a skill that's used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too.
It was also discussed in the thread I linked (page 2 & 3), and also in (2024 rules) Does Expertise in Sleight of Hand give any benefit to picking a lock?
Not everybody agrees on how to rule it.
EDIT: for clarity.
Yeah. The ending comments of that thread played out in real time just yesterday in the discord (or was it two days ago?). The main argument was that the tool rules superseded the skill rules, and they only talk about adding your proficiency bonus for being proficient in the tool (i.e. no expertise if proficient in the tool). Like I said, though, I agree with wildbill and you all in that it opens up another option, mostly because the former really doesn't sound intended.
I would say that the Expertise rules are more specific than the proficiency rules, whether we are talking about skills or tools.
Also, while it is included in Stabby_TC's post, I want to call out a scenario that OP didn't mention. If you have the tools and proficiency in those tools, but no skill proficiency, you add your proficiency bonus and attribute modifier.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.