Under the 2024 rules, only Skills may have expertise; no more Expertise in Thieves' Tools. For the sake of this discussion let's assume that the character attempting the check has Proficiency in Thieves' Tools, and Expertise in Sleight of Hand.
If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have proficiency in a skill that’s used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too.
Ability: Dexterity Utilize: Pick a lock (DC 15), or disarm a trap (DC 15)
This doesn't say anything about using Sleight of Hand in the skill, so the answer would seem to be "no," except for what the Lock entry under adventuring gear says.
A Lock comes with a key. Without the key, a creature can use Thieves’ Tools to pick this Lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check.
This piece of gear says that a creature can use Thieves' Tools to pick it with a successful Sleight of Hand check. Your proficiency bonus can only apply once, so it wouldn't matter except for the case of Expertise.
So is the Sleight of Hand check only applicable to this mundane piece of Adventurer's gear, and that alone? Or is picking locks in general now a Sleight of Hand skill check? And if Sleight of Hands is used, does Expertise apply, or does it not because the proficiency bonus can only apply once, and it applies to Thieves' Tools, because that's what's used to make the check?
I believe the answer is no. I think you are supposed to make a Dexterity (Thieves Tools) check to pick a lock, otherwise there would be no point in being able to select Expertise in Theives tools.
I believe the answer is no. I think you are supposed to make a Dexterity (Thieves Tools) check to pick a lock, otherwise there would be no point in being able to select Expertise in Theives tools.
You could select Expertise in Thieves' Tools under the 2014 rules, but it does not seem like it is possible to have Expertise in Thieves' Tools under the 2024 rules, because you can only have Expertise in a Skill, as state in the very first quote.
I believe the answer is no. I think you are supposed to make a Dexterity (Thieves Tools) check to pick a lock, otherwise there would be no point in being able to select Expertise in Theives tools.
Expertise is for skills. I do not believe you can apply it to tools unless they add something in the future with a specific exemption.
I believe the answer is no. I think you are supposed to make a Dexterity (Thieves Tools) check to pick a lock, otherwise there would be no point in being able to select Expertise in Theives tools.
You could select Expertise in Thieves' Tools under the 2014 rules, but it does not seem like it is possible to have Expertise in Thieves' Tools under the 2024 rules, because you can only have Expertise in a Skill, as state in the very first quote.
Hmm... I made a character in the character builder and it let me. That is what I get for trusting D&D Beyond.
I believe the answer is no. I think you are supposed to make a Dexterity (Thieves Tools) check to pick a lock, otherwise there would be no point in being able to select Expertise in Theives tools.
Expertise is for skills. I do not believe you can apply it to tools unless they add something in the future with a specific exemption.
I believe the answer is no. I think you are supposed to make a Dexterity (Thieves Tools) check to pick a lock, otherwise there would be no point in being able to select Expertise in Theives tools.
Expertise is for skills. I do not believe you can apply it to tools unless they add something in the future with a specific exemption.
Edit: ha, looks like I got ninja'd by seconds.
Seems like that is just a bug in D&D Beyond that lets you still select expertise for tools.
A Lock comes with a key. Without the key, a creature can use Thieves’ Tools to pick this Lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check.
This piece of gear says that a creature can use Thieves' Tools to pick it with a successful Sleight of Hand check. Your proficiency bonus can only apply once, so it wouldn't matter except for the case of Expertise.
FWIW, they incorporated the tool-skill synergy from XGE. "If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have proficiency in a skill that’s used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too." So I would say it does matter.
As to your general question, honestly I think they meant to have Sleight of Hand apply to lockpicking. It's mentioned not only in the Lock but also in the Thief subclass Fast Hands feature. While it's possible these are special cases, that would be more believable if it was only in the Thief features.
In 2014, in Chapter 7 there was a more thorough break down of when to use various checks. There was nothing about picking a lock that was associated with Sleight of Hand. There was also a section called "Other Dexterity Checks" which listed straight Dexterity checks that were not associated with a skill, and picking a lock fell into that category. It was listed in a couple of places (Chapter 7 and Chapter 5) that picking a lock required "proficiency" in Thieves' Tools. The Lock item and also the Manacles item mentioned using the Thieves' Tools proficiency in a straight Dex check.
In 2024, I cannot find any equivalent list of activities that would apply to various skill checks or straight ability checks. However, the places that describe the Sleight of Hand skill still do not mention anything about using this skill to pick a lock. But that doesn't mean that that list is exhaustive either.
The rules which describe ability checks (before skills are ever mentioned) say this:
An ability check represents a creature using talent and training to try to overcome a challenge, such as forcing open a stuck door, picking a lock, entertaining a crowd, or deciphering a cipher. The DM and the rules often call for an ability check when a creature attempts something . . .
But this doesn't necessarily mean that these things that are mentioned here are meant to be straight (no skill) ability checks in the way that some lists of activities in the 2014 rules did.
The rules for skill proficiencies don't specifically mention picking locks:
Most ability checks involve using a skill, which represents a category of things creatures try to do with an ability check. The descriptions of the actions you take (see "Actions" later in this chapter) specify which skill applies if you make an ability check for that action, and many other rules note when a skill is relevant. The DM has the ultimate say on whether a skill is relevant in a situation.
If the character lacks that proficiency, they make the check without adding their Proficiency Bonus.
Same for Equipment (Tool) Proficiencies:
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have Proficiency in the skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too.
But later on, general rules regarding Adventuring Equipment have this to say:
As adventurers explore, their equipment can help them in many ways. For example, they can reach out-of-the-way places with a Ladder, perceive things they wouldn’t otherwise notice with a Torch or another light source, bypass locked doors and containers with Thieves’ Tools, and create obstacles for pursuers with Caltrops.
Based on a combination of the above rules, it looks to me like the 2024 rules clarify that you do not need to be proficient in Tools in order to use them. So, it appears that you no longer need proficiency in the Thieves' Tools to pick a lock -- however, it seems to be implied that you do need to use Thieves' Tools to pick a lock.
Next, in the 2024 general description of a Rogue, we have this:
Many Rogues focus on stealth and deception, while others refine skills that help them in a dungeon environment, such as climbing, finding and disarming traps, and opening locks
So, unlike in 2014, the new rules seem to imply that there are skills that would help with tasks such as finding and disarming traps and for opening locks.
Some more 2024 rules for Tools:
A tool helps you make specialized ability checks, craft certain items, or both. A tool’s description includes the tool’s cost and weight, as well as the following entries:
Ability. This entry lists the ability to use when making an ability check with the tool.
Utilize. This entry lists things you can do with the tool when you take the Utilize action. You can do one of those things each time you take the action. This entry also provides the DC for the action.
So, these rules discuss how to actually use the tools from your inventory as an action to help you make certain ability checks -- and you may or may not be proficient in the tool when you use it.
Ability: Dexterity Utilize: Pick a lock (DC 15), or disarm a trap (DC 15)
To me, this just means that you can use your Thieves' Tools as an action to attempt certain (listed) activities which would require a Dexterity check. I don't think that this is meant to be restrictive or exhaustive. It's just one entry on a list which begins with the description "These tools support adventure and other pursuits". So, with DM approval, you could probably use your Thieves' Tools to attempt other activities that are not listed there. Also, just because using this Tool would require a Dexterity check does not necessarily mean that you can't also apply a relevant skill to that check. At least I don't read these entries in that way.
As a Bonus Action, you can do one of the following.
Sleight of Hand. Make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to pick a lock or disarm a trap with Thieves’ Tools or to pick a pocket.
It seems to me like this is how you would do this anyway, but with this feature the Thief can now do it as a Bonus Action instead of a full Utilize action.
My conclusion is that there might be some minor rules inconsistencies, but mostly it does appear that you are meant to be able to apply your proficiency in Sleight of Hand to any checks that are attempting lock picking. But you must at least possess and use the Thieves' Tools when you do so, otherwise the check automatically fails. Having proficiency in Sleight of Hand is not required and also having proficiency in Thieves' Tools is not required. But having proficiency or expertise in Sleight of Hand will be helpful as usual. If you have proficiency in Thieves' Tools instead, that would also be helpful. And having both is even more helpful. Expertise in Sleight of Hand and proficiency in Thieves' Tools is the most helpful combination.
Well I cannot be 100% sure about the intended, but adding from here and there I'd say that the skill for lock pick and disarm trap is sleight of hands. The Lock equipment, plus the Thief description of Fast Hands sounds intended to do the same than usual but using the Bonus Action.
This let's to have Expertise + Advantage (with tool proficiency). I noticed this version emphasizes the "expertising", now more accesible to all characters with feats (that increases ability score) and features like the Wizard Scholar. Which is something I appreciate much as I like more the games based on skills, and in the 2014 version we could't feel like we could have skill bonus fitting the character level, as the proficiency increased slowly as it is made for combat maths, not skill checks. Then for most we could start with DC10 at lower levels, but only could update to DC15 for very high levels as the characters rarely could specialize in anything to boost their skill bonus. Now characters can specialize getting Expertise plus tools, so the DM can put really very hard ability checks on intended situations, this is, "if you want to reach this you need to be really an expert one and not just having some luck on the roll" (which happened when we could only increase slightly the DC for checks due to the bonus increase mechanic).
In the case the character wants to be Rogue + Wayfarer (a natural combo and much typical IMO), just let it to get another tool from the class proficiency.
Under the 2024 rules, only Skills may have expertise; no more Expertise in Thieves' Tools. For the sake of this discussion let's assume that the character attempting the check has Proficiency in Thieves' Tools, and Expertise in Sleight of Hand.
Because Thieves' Tools are used for picking a lock, the relevant entry should be under Tool Proficiencies.
Tool Proficiency states:
The entry for Thieves Tools says:
This doesn't say anything about using Sleight of Hand in the skill, so the answer would seem to be "no," except for what the Lock entry under adventuring gear says.
This piece of gear says that a creature can use Thieves' Tools to pick it with a successful Sleight of Hand check. Your proficiency bonus can only apply once, so it wouldn't matter except for the case of Expertise.
So is the Sleight of Hand check only applicable to this mundane piece of Adventurer's gear, and that alone? Or is picking locks in general now a Sleight of Hand skill check? And if Sleight of Hands is used, does Expertise apply, or does it not because the proficiency bonus can only apply once, and it applies to Thieves' Tools, because that's what's used to make the check?
I believe the answer is no. I think you are supposed to make a Dexterity (Thieves Tools) check to pick a lock, otherwise there would be no point in being able to select Expertise in Theives tools.
You could select Expertise in Thieves' Tools under the 2014 rules, but it does not seem like it is possible to have Expertise in Thieves' Tools under the 2024 rules, because you can only have Expertise in a Skill, as state in the very first quote.
Expertise is for skills. I do not believe you can apply it to tools unless they add something in the future with a specific exemption.
Edit: ha, looks like I got ninja'd by seconds.
Hmm... I made a character in the character builder and it let me. That is what I get for trusting D&D Beyond.
Seems like that is just a bug in D&D Beyond that lets you still select expertise for tools.
FWIW, they incorporated the tool-skill synergy from XGE. "If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have proficiency in a skill that’s used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too." So I would say it does matter.
As to your general question, honestly I think they meant to have Sleight of Hand apply to lockpicking. It's mentioned not only in the Lock but also in the Thief subclass Fast Hands feature. While it's possible these are special cases, that would be more believable if it was only in the Thief features.
In 2014, in Chapter 7 there was a more thorough break down of when to use various checks. There was nothing about picking a lock that was associated with Sleight of Hand. There was also a section called "Other Dexterity Checks" which listed straight Dexterity checks that were not associated with a skill, and picking a lock fell into that category. It was listed in a couple of places (Chapter 7 and Chapter 5) that picking a lock required "proficiency" in Thieves' Tools. The Lock item and also the Manacles item mentioned using the Thieves' Tools proficiency in a straight Dex check.
In 2024, I cannot find any equivalent list of activities that would apply to various skill checks or straight ability checks. However, the places that describe the Sleight of Hand skill still do not mention anything about using this skill to pick a lock. But that doesn't mean that that list is exhaustive either.
The rules which describe ability checks (before skills are ever mentioned) say this:
But this doesn't necessarily mean that these things that are mentioned here are meant to be straight (no skill) ability checks in the way that some lists of activities in the 2014 rules did.
The rules for skill proficiencies don't specifically mention picking locks:
Same for Equipment (Tool) Proficiencies:
But later on, general rules regarding Adventuring Equipment have this to say:
Based on a combination of the above rules, it looks to me like the 2024 rules clarify that you do not need to be proficient in Tools in order to use them. So, it appears that you no longer need proficiency in the Thieves' Tools to pick a lock -- however, it seems to be implied that you do need to use Thieves' Tools to pick a lock.
Next, in the 2024 general description of a Rogue, we have this:
So, unlike in 2014, the new rules seem to imply that there are skills that would help with tasks such as finding and disarming traps and for opening locks.
Some more 2024 rules for Tools:
So, these rules discuss how to actually use the tools from your inventory as an action to help you make certain ability checks -- and you may or may not be proficient in the tool when you use it.
For Thieves' Tools, we have:
To me, this just means that you can use your Thieves' Tools as an action to attempt certain (listed) activities which would require a Dexterity check. I don't think that this is meant to be restrictive or exhaustive. It's just one entry on a list which begins with the description "These tools support adventure and other pursuits". So, with DM approval, you could probably use your Thieves' Tools to attempt other activities that are not listed there. Also, just because using this Tool would require a Dexterity check does not necessarily mean that you can't also apply a relevant skill to that check. At least I don't read these entries in that way.
Lastly, the item descriptions:
Lock:
Manacles:
and also, the Rogue Thief's Fast Hands feature:
It seems to me like this is how you would do this anyway, but with this feature the Thief can now do it as a Bonus Action instead of a full Utilize action.
My conclusion is that there might be some minor rules inconsistencies, but mostly it does appear that you are meant to be able to apply your proficiency in Sleight of Hand to any checks that are attempting lock picking. But you must at least possess and use the Thieves' Tools when you do so, otherwise the check automatically fails. Having proficiency in Sleight of Hand is not required and also having proficiency in Thieves' Tools is not required. But having proficiency or expertise in Sleight of Hand will be helpful as usual. If you have proficiency in Thieves' Tools instead, that would also be helpful. And having both is even more helpful. Expertise in Sleight of Hand and proficiency in Thieves' Tools is the most helpful combination.
My understanding is that the 2014 rules didn't have you using Sleight of Hand but people did on common usage.
Well I cannot be 100% sure about the intended, but adding from here and there I'd say that the skill for lock pick and disarm trap is sleight of hands. The Lock equipment, plus the Thief description of Fast Hands sounds intended to do the same than usual but using the Bonus Action.
This let's to have Expertise + Advantage (with tool proficiency). I noticed this version emphasizes the "expertising", now more accesible to all characters with feats (that increases ability score) and features like the Wizard Scholar. Which is something I appreciate much as I like more the games based on skills, and in the 2014 version we could't feel like we could have skill bonus fitting the character level, as the proficiency increased slowly as it is made for combat maths, not skill checks. Then for most we could start with DC10 at lower levels, but only could update to DC15 for very high levels as the characters rarely could specialize in anything to boost their skill bonus. Now characters can specialize getting Expertise plus tools, so the DM can put really very hard ability checks on intended situations, this is, "if you want to reach this you need to be really an expert one and not just having some luck on the roll" (which happened when we could only increase slightly the DC for checks due to the bonus increase mechanic).
In the case the character wants to be Rogue + Wayfarer (a natural combo and much typical IMO), just let it to get another tool from the class proficiency.