Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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I am thinking how an Aarakoka or flying race with greater invisibility from a friend could exploit this. Again this is just theorycrafting.
An Arcane Trickster could probably solo the Terrasque so I’m not sure what you mean by “rough”. Unstoppable offense gets past the AC and flight keeps you out of melee. The issue is travel speed so a team would have to slow it down somehow. But I agree its limited to flying and sniping.
One other option I had not considered would be to have the Arcane Trickster simply upcast flight so that both he and a full caster could be up in the air, and then the full caster could have their concentration free for other things. But while I’m even on that subject a full caster could upcast flight for the whole party and then just fire bomb the thing and everyone has their concentration to do whatever.
For me the main draw of MFH is it is a damage bonus that can’t be killed that takes no concentration. But obviously the limitation is it consumes your action to move. (Which is why I want Tenser’s Floating Disk to work which you guys say doesn’t.)
Nothing can move the hounds. Not a flying disc, not a bag of carrying. They are not objects or creatures - they are intangible spell effects. They remain stationary in space unless the caster uses a Magic Action to move a hound 30ft.
This is the part where I am applying cheese. Once the hounds are in interdimensional space they aren’t even moving no matter where I carry the bag. Their tail appears to move with me only because it is attached to them. I use a magic action to have them enter the bag one by one, sans tail. The tail is within 300 feet of me, but still them. But they become essentially in two places at once.
I think it works.
And to make this even cheesier, I could have the hound stick just his head out of the bag and effectively add 4d8 force to my turn if I am in melee and never use an action to move them because they are sitting in the bag.
Now to make this even cheesier…. 🧀 cracks knuckles 🧀…. I could place the bag on a Tenser’s Floating Disk with the head out and then get my desired effect.
We’ve just arrived at the Nacho Bar. 🧀🧀🌮🌯🧀🧀
If part is in and part is out, either:
-The bag becomes anchored by failing to move the hound
-The hound passes through the bag as soon as you move
Basically, the part that's out of the bag will stay where it is no matter what. The only question is how the bag reacts.
The Arcane Trickster will need to rely on Sneak Attack because the spell options are rough. You can use Greater Invisibility to set up advantage for the Sneak Attacks at ranged, but you will need to have Sharpshooter to negate the long-range penalty. If you are within 120 feet of the Tarrasque, the invisibility is negated by Blindsight. In essence, you will be most effective as an invisible rogue and the Arcane Trickster aspect is hard pressed to bring anything to the table. Greater Invisibility + Sharpshooter and a Vicious Shortbow is probably your best option despite the resistance to piercing damage.
Oh. I forgot about Legendary Resistance. You'll want attack roll or automatic damage against it.
You will need at least twelve 10 x 10 walls depending on the vertical space of the Tarrasque. I don't think that's officially defined anywhere. That's at least 2 castings. If the Tarrasque can't get out, your attacks might not get in. Between the burrow and climb speeds, it will be hard to trap.
The what?
In any case, I think the rules question has been answered and this has shifted into Tips & Tactics.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Then they are more than 300 feet away from you and the spell ends
They don't have a tail. They are not real hounds. They are intangible spell effects
Until you stop thinking of them as actual puppers, your theorycrafting is a non-starter
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Its a fun debate.
I think If the bag gets stuck then the hound is tangible, which it is not.
I think If the tail remains anchored then you have to make the case that it is possible to split the MFH which is an interesting visual. I don’t think that makes sense though.
I think the best read is the tail would stay connected and the hound is effectively anchored to the ground but otherwise intangible. And that’s the problem.
If one makes the case that the MFH is not actually anchored to the ground then one ought to be able to cast it into the middle of the air. Because the language does not really imply that I think “gravity” applies but it is otherwise intangible.
The best reading does not include a tail because there is no tail. The dog doesn't exist, it is a single point in space where a spell effect acts as an alarm and delivers force damage.
The effect is not anchored to the ground by gravity, it is anchored to its point in space. You can cast it in the air. It is not affected by gravity and will not fall if a building it was inside of collapsed.
If you put the effect on a surface of a wagon and move the wagon then the effect will remain stationary and the wagon will leave.
If the effect is moved through some sort of portal into another planar space then things get very complicated, but not better for you. Either the effect immediately disappears because that plane of existence is not within your current spacial realm and thus not within 300', or else you try to argue that the open portal keeps the effect in range but then the effect should still remain stationary if the portal entrance is moved resulting in it passing out the side of the container (back into normal space probably).
If you want the effect to come with you from one place to another then your only option is to use your Action each turn to move it 30'.
Do not think of the spell effect as either a creature or an object - it is neither. It is a point in space.
The best tactic for a 20th level Arcane Trickster vs Tarrasque is to cast fly and pelt it with arrows from outside the Tarrasque's jumping height (monsters can jump too, as my players found out much to their dismay when they tried to hover over a T.Rex). Use sneak attack if you can get an ally next to it, but either way - just fly and pelt it with range attacks = win. As for MFH - it is almost useless against a Tarrasque.
MFH can't go into a bag of holding (it is insubstantial and a spell effect, it is neither an object nor creature). Even if it could go into a bag of holding (it can't), it can't have it's tail sticking out. Anything put into a bag of holding moves into an extradimensional space. You can't carry something half in and half out of an extradimensional space. As others have said, the ONLY way to move the MFH is with a magic action, so it is highly unlikely that it will ever be next to the Tarrasque at the start of your turn so you can have it deliver its damage (assuming the Tarrasque fails its save - good luck with that).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
For reference:
You conjure a phantom watchdog in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The hound remains for the duration or until the two of you are more than 300 feet apart from each other.
No one but you can see the hound, and it is intangible and invulnerable. When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound has Truesight with a range of 30 feet.
At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one enemy within 5 feet of it. That enemy must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 4d8 Force damage.
On your later turns, you can take a Magic action to move the hound up to 30 feet.
- - -
The text of the spell says “conjure phantom watchdog.”. It barks. It bites. It is called a hound.
A hound dog has a tail.
This to me does not read like a mere spell effect but a dog.
That being the case I am (I suppose) assuming it has a tail but perhaps a phantom dog has no tail? LOL
PAW. IT KEEPS ITS PAW OUT. 😂
For reference:
Bag of Holding-
This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions—roughly 2 feet square and 4 feet deep on the inside. The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet. The bag weighs 5 pounds, regardless of its contents. Retrieving an item from the bag requires a Utilize action.
If the bag is overloaded, pierced, or torn, it is destroyed, and its contents are scattered in the Astral Plane. If the bag is turned inside out, its contents spill forth unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. The bag holds enough air for 10 minutes of breathing, divided by the number of breathing creatures inside.
- - - - - -
So I think a 4 x 4 x 4 space that can hold creatures up to 500 lbs is doable. If a creature can exist there so can a spell.
I would say that a 64 cubic space could hold probably 2 hounds in real life comfortably.
A magic action in this case moves the MFH into the bag of holding with just the tail or paw out. It is perfectly stationary as a guard dog. The bag itself is inter-dimensional space. Objects enter in and exit, not as a teleportation, but as a transition between inside and outside and vice versa.
It is a phantom hound. It moves 30 feet.
Thank you for posting. The language makes it sound like a creature.
The text says it is a phantom hound and it is a conjuration spell. It does not have a stat card because its sole function is to observe, bark, and bite.
Whatever the word “tangible” means in this case, it is real enough to do 4d8 force damage.
Regardless somebody might make the case that it is a horrible choice for an Arcane Trickster. But that is if:
- You ignore the basic definitions of the words “phantom”, “hound”, and “watchdog.”
- You dismiss the gravity physics of the universe as it pertains to the game (think about earth rotating)
- You think of it in isolation without considering combos
- You assume that a phantom dog can do force damage but would have no interaction with Tenser’s Flying Disc which can hold 500lbs because of its force power.
- Could not be improved via meta-magic
I think the various readings of the text are squishy enough to find some interactions here though.
It is in times like these that you quote the DMG
Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world. Don’t let players argue that a bucket brigade of ordinary people can accelerate a spear to light speed by all using the Ready action to pass the spear to the next person in line. The Ready action facilitates heroic action; it doesn’t define the physical limitations of what can happen in a 6-second combat round.
The Game Is Not an Economy. The rules of the game aren’t intended to model a realistic economy, and players who look for loopholes that let them generate infinite wealth using combinations of spells are exploiting the rules.
Combat Is for Enemies. Some rules apply only during combat or while a character is acting in Initiative order. Don’t let players attack each other or helpless creatures to activate those rules.
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Any sufficiently widespread magic is indistinguishable from technology.
The second funniest thing to make a D&D party do is explain morality
Try your hand at the Ultimate Skill Build Challenge!
I probably nitpick and scrutinize too much
Good reminders.
I think the issue here is some are stating that the MFH cannot ride on the Tenser’s Floating Disk.
But I am willing to bet that if I am on an airship or a boat they would have no problem with me using MFH even if it was moving. One platform is as good as another in my opinion.
I only mention physics because people already assume that the dog is staying put despite the world’s rotation. So the position must be bound to a relative other position. Using this argument I would say that the TFD can transports hounds in the exact same way a boat or an airship could move them. A “space” is a relative concept not an absolute concept.
World rotation is not included in movement models, and various worlds have reasons for it. Some may not be in motion, some (like the Forgotten Realms) have a magic field that's pulled on for spellcasting that moves with the world which means spells remain stable relative to the world they're cast on.
The big issue people have with what you're trying to do is actually that you're trying to get extra movement out of a spell that's meant to be a guard spell, not a mobile weapon. It's cheese, plain and simple, there's no way around that being the case.
Additionally, you're trying to treat the thing as if it's a creature. While it certainly appears to be one to anyone who can see it, it's only a spell effect. It doesn't have any stats (which any actual summon would have) and can't interact with the world around it aside from the one save/damage per turn, nor can it be interacted with outside of dispelling unless the ability used to interact with it specifies otherwise.
Something is either in a bag of holding or it is not in a bag of holding. Not both. It is mordenkainen’s hound, not schrodinger’s
The text of the spell says that it is a phantom watchdog/hound, but that it is invulnerable. They include language about moving it with a magic action (30ft) which implies that repositioning it is intended. If it lacked this language you might make the case that it is static but it specifically says it can move. Nowhere in the text does it say it only works at night, or at a door, or whatever. It’s uses are multiple and varied.
There is no limitation on how many can be cast beyond spell slots, one casting does not cancel another.
The text stats that the MFH has to be cast into an empty space. However because it is intangible other creatures and objects can move right through it. Additionally, there is nothing in the text that states a MFW cannot occupy the space of another MFW after casting.
So an MFW can exist in the same space as another. The end result is you can (I theorize) that you can stack them in the same doorway, the same corner, or the same vehicle. Each one bites for 4d8 on a players turn. You can as a Sorceror, Wizard or Bard create an entire pack of MFHs and place them all onto a vehicle in the same space (after initial casting). The TFD is a vehicle. It follows you at your speed on your turn if it is more than 20 feet away. Your speed on a Phantom Steed is 100 feet per turn, faster than the Terrasque. There are some interactions here possible where you use TFD, MFW and PS to create a high speed dog sled of doom.
[Redacted]
That is not very consistent. I mean you have to reach your arm into it to grab things. Your arm goes into the inter-dimensional space but you stay outside of it. If an arm can go in, a paw can come out.
[Redacted]
If you're looking for someone to tell you that this trick actually works according to the rules, I think it's pretty clear you're not going to find that here.
pronouns: he/she/they
I’m calling it:
1. Tenser’s Flying Disc can carry a phantom watchdog.
2. A phantom watchdog can occupy the space of another watchdog.
3. The phantom watchdog is a creature, is invulnerable, and has multiple uses.
4. Meta-magic can make them even better.