Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Half of the things I brought up are a no, half a yes. I think.
The reason I think I disagree with the TFD thing you stated is because of airships and boats and wagons/carriages even.
As far as whether or not a MFW is a creature, it states it is invulnerable. This would not even be a thought if it was an illusion. To me the very reason they said this is BECAUSE it is a creature. It’s just a phantom and has no skills or vulnerabilities….
Again this is my read but I haven’t seen anyone disagree with the boat/airship argument for TFD and that is why I am confident my read is correct on that one issue.
Athanar90 explained why that doesn't work in post #35.
It's not an illusion and no one is saying that it is, but it's also not a creature. As has been stated multiple times, if it were intended to be a creature, the spell would include a stat block for it, like every spell that actually summons a creature does. The argument that the spell explains why it doesn't behave like a creature because it is a creature doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Again, if your DM is on board with this use of the spell as a house rule, go for it. But if you're looking for someone to tell you that the rules actually support this usage, you're not going to find that, because they don't.
pronouns: he/she/they
[Redacted]
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My houserulings.
Thank you for your time and attention.
I am the DM. But the AT will be an NPC I control (probably).
I am having fun with this cheese tray I admit. You probably won’t enjoy my thoughts on stacking hounds on a TFD and making a dog sled of doom. Imagine 10 hounds doing 4d8 per round! LOL
If you’re the DM then none of this matters.
NPCs don’t need to (and generally shouldn’t) follow the same rules as player characters for how their abilities are defined.
If you want an NPC to have the ability to summon a magic unkillable dog that bites a Tarrasque while riding a floating disk, go right ahead. There’s no need to try to shoehorn that into an existing player ability that clearly doesn’t support it.
pronouns: he/she/they
True. 😐
I could also just house rule it.
Thanks for dialoguing.
Granted, it can be bad form to grant a DMPC some special gimmick to play with during a big fight. This example isn’t really a problem because the effect is minimal, but most of the DM’s job in combat is to run the creatures the party fights, not have their own protag showboating against a BBEG/boss monster.
You raise a very valid point, thank you for your wisdom.
The NPC I will control is intentionally an underpowered third caster. However I am probably going to have the Terrasque stomp on him and then eat him at some point. This is to build suspense and raise the stakes. I want them to know about the danger of melee range.
I am going to show them a tactic they can try but the caster will have a catastrophic failure and get eaten.
If I was going to showboat, I would take in a full caster, cast greater polymorph, and just battle it with a dragon or something.
I am tempted though to go 13 AT Rogue 7 Sorcerer just to get more MFH with more metamagic. But it really depends what the party brings. We need at least two to clear the saddle carriage on top of the domesticated Tarrasque.
1. No. It is intangible, so nothing can have a physical effect on it. It cannot "stand" on the floating disc. To be affected by the disc, it would need to be able to be in contact with it. As it is intangible, it never contacts the disc, therefore it is unaffected by the disc's movement. The hound is unaffected by ANYTHING. It is intangible. this means it could go through walls, the ground, etc. Nothing even says it needs to be in contact with the ground, so you could summon it 30ft in the air and it would simply remain there, only moving when you use a Magic Action to move it.
2. Sure, given enough casters you could have 5,000,000 of these phantom dogs in a single space, as they don't take up space and are intangible.
3. It is not a creature. Yes there are creatures that are phantoms. Yes there are creatures that are dogs. That does not mean this is a creature. For a spell to summon a creature, it will either A) provide a statblock for said creature or B) refer to the statblock of an already existing creature. No spell that requires its target to be a "creature" will work on this summon, as it is not a creature. It is basically a magical force given the form of a dog.
4. Meta Magic can effect some things regarding the spell, like the original distance cast and the duration, yes.
Thank you for sharing! Here’s my thoughts:
1. So I move it into a bag of holding which is an interdimensional space that it cannot escape except via the opening, and I put the bag on the disk. 😁. Since they can overlap and weigh nothing, I can fit like 100 in there. And I can walk with my hand in the bag so they won’t disappear. My dude, I have thought this through.
2. This is the funnest fact that literally everyone agrees with.
3. I’m 75% in agreement here. Not 100%, but 75%. I have an argument for why it might be a creature though. I’m in agreement that there is no obvious stat block. I can’t even find “phantom” in the new Monster Manual.
4. I think the extended time one could be exploited for this one shot. I am debating whether or not to illustrate it for the players or to just do it and let them envy.
1. Wait, if you have them in the bag, and the bag is on the disk, and you have your hand in the bag to keep them in range.... why aren't you simply carrying the bag? What point does the disk serve in this scenario?
I'm also dubious RAW how you have 100 of them, unless you also are bringing a large number of casters with you (since even with making the duration last longer, it still is not infinite). So for 100, you're still going to need what, like 25 additional casters to come along?
It will also take an action to retrieve them one at a time from the bag if we are being very generous and considering them an "item" (which I do not think I would, as they are intangible). You can, of course, turn the bag inside out to empty its contents all at once.
Now of course, if you're the DM, you can do whatever you want, but at that point I would simply just make up a different spell/ability that creates a similar entity without the restrictions. Just have your NPC have a special spell called "100 Phantom Attack Dogs" that spawns 100 invisible, intangible attack dogs that all do 4d8 damage and follow the target creature so they can keep up with the Tarasque. It does what you want, without having to bend the rules into something they were never meant to be.
3. It would not matter if you could find a "phantom" stat block in the MM, DMG, VGTM, TCOE, MOTM. The summoned creature is, in fact, not any "phantom", it is specifically the entity described in the casting of the spell, for which there is no stat block because it is not a creature. As the DM, if you want to assign in the label of "creature" and give it a stat block, that is of course your prevue, however it isn't at all RAW, and I would be careful of setting the precedent to your players that summons that aren't specifically creatures can benefit from spells that do target/buff creatures.
Many excellent points, thank you for sharing.
I used the “100” number as a hyperbole example. I am merely suggesting the bag of holding solution for those that think a TFD could not hold a MFH.
People seem to have wildly different concepts of what a “space” is. We all agree an MFH has to be cast into an empty space. I think it is implied that it must be a space on the ground, but that is probably because I play with battlemaps and minis, so I am thinking a 5’x5’ square or a hex. I am not thinking of a cube in the middle if the air though I can see why someone would think that if they imagine it flying. However typically if a thing is capable of flying it will use the word “fly” somewhere. This does not so I assume it does not mean “in the air.”. I think a good faith reading is that it takes a place on the ground and moves along the ground (within reason).
But maybe its not the best point to argue about.
As far as “creature,” if creature merely means things that have stat cards then anything a player encounters in the game without a stat card cannot be a creature. Because the Monster Manual is non-exhaustive I think the case can be made that a creature is “broader” than stat cards, because there are all kinds of things we would easily consider “creatures” that are not. In this broader sense, a MFH is a creature without a stat card, or it uses the 2014 5e phantom one with the mods (until I find it in 2024 wherever it is).
It seems though these are pretty solid:
-The hounds can overlap.
-They can go into a bag of holding.
—They can all exit the bag of holding by emptying its contents.
It seems this is contested::
- TFD usage
- Creature definition
Killing an NPC in a 1-shot does not raise the stakes. The players have no concept of who this character is. They will not be invested enough in them to appreciate what their death means.
Nor will it build suspense. Again, it’s a 1-shot. By their nature, there’s not time for suspense. It’s more: go do this one thing.
And a rogue/sorcerer dying by DM fiat in melee does not illustrate the danger of being in melee for, say, the barbarian who will have lots more hp, and resist most of the damage the thing is doing.
I don't want to belabor the point to much, but you absolutely can cast it in the air. It doesn't have a fly speed or say it can "fly", because it doesn't have any speed. It doesn't move. YOU move it.. It never moves of its own accord. It behaves a lot like an Echo Knight Fighter's manifested Echo. It simply says you spawn it in a space you can see, and doesn't specify it must be on the ground. It's intangible, so gravity has no effect on it. You can rule that it must be summoned on the ground, but that's not anything that the rules point to as being a restriction.
As for the "creature" argument, you seem to be misinterpreting or misrepresenting my statement. I'm not saying all creatures have an explicit stat block in the rule books. I'm saying all creatures that are created, summoned, etc by spells, magic items, whatever, have stat blocks explicitly in the spell or links to a stat block in the rulebooks. This does not, and the summoned entity behaves nothing like a creature (besides "barking" and "biting", which are just kind of flavor for "alarming" and "doing damage"). If the spell summoned a creature, it would say so, and have stats to go along with it, or point to a stat block in the rules.
You might be right. 😁
Actually, Sorcerers and/or Circle Magic probably can get pretty close (I think you can add 24 hours to the duration and then double the duration to 64 hours due the simultaneous effects rule as long as you aren't casting as a reaction). The easier option is, of course, a pile of spell scrolls.
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My houserulings.
Honestly though, I think if I play it out as that classic 80s/90s video game intro where the girlfriend or princess get’s in trouble and needs saving…. and maybe even dies…. it will be gut wrenching. When the Terrasque swallows a character, they die slowly. Its brutal.
I guess my “good faith reading” is that it says it summons a hound that is a phantom and it simply implies that it is a creature because a hound is a creature not a firework. It is not an illusion of a hound, but can bite.
If you look at the old 5e phantom stat block…. which you might say is the foundation for MFH….. you could make the case that MFH modifies the stat card with some very specific rules, namely invulnerability, how it moves, and its damage. I have had to make a similar case in other debates, that the spell (or feat) draws upon the text of another spell, feat or rule.
If I make this argument, then MFH is a very specific phantom that is related to the phantom stat card. An example of this kind of things is Wild Companion for druids where they modify the Find Familiar spell rules which itself references the stat cards of many beasts without showing them.
But I might also be convinced that the MFH is not a creature. I am probably 75% that it is not, 25% that it is. I need to read through the texts again. The primary reason I suspect I may eventually agree that it is a mere spell effect is because they did not include a phantom in the 2024 Monster Manual. However this may have been an oversight because MFH comes from the PHB and they may have been referencing the 2014 and early drafts of the 24 monster manual when they created it. Regardless, I think the simple phrase “you conjure a phantom watchdog/hound” is itself semantically evidence of it being a creature if for nothing else because it also does damage and barks, things you’d expect of a creature but not an illusion.
Don’t even get me started on druids “Conjure Woodland Beings.” We could unpack that one all weekend.
100% correct….. this is why I am thinking of pairing the AT with a full sorcerer for the aerial team for stage 1 of the battle where they are attacking the domesticated Terrasque’s operators. The bulk of the MFH would be from the full sorcerer. But I am thinking of doing a 13/7 split with the AT so it can have more hounds and metamagic as wells. With the “night before” trick we can extend the hounds to 16 hours and double up the numbers. We can store them all in a bag of holding or two and drop them after the Terrasque is contained by force walls and then (possibly) use 1 or 2 TFDs to create dog sleds of doom…. the math is ridonkulous once you sit down and start crunching it and the hounds don’t even require concentration, actions, bonus actions, or reactions, so you can just use up spell slots to nuke the terrasque and let the hounds bite it ober and over again. This is just the aerial team. There would be four others doing other things, and at least one paladin-sorceror who could also do some MFHs if they wanted. I can’t wait to try this.
Another thing that is interesting is how the Faithful Hound Changed between 5e and 5.5.
The 5e version says that it is invisible, the 5.5 says only you can see it. So there is probably a difference in whether it can be seen via True Sight or Blindsight. I think it improved.
The 5e version is a melee spell attack that does piercing damage, while the 5.5 version has a Dex saving throw that does Force damage. I think this difference effectively changes the kinds of enemies it is effective against. The 5e version was essentially worthless against Legendary monsters because of their high AC, but this one is more effective.
The range also went from 100 feet to 300 feet.
But most importantly, the MFH gained the ability to MOVE on a magic action. THIS IS the source of confusion. They added this feature in 5.5, and in my opinion the fact that it can now move means that it has more uses than simply a watchdog. You can use it more like a familiar that packs a punch.
It also gained the property “intangible.” So the 5e one could not stack, but the 5.5 one can stack in the same space. This is a huge boon!
For reference:
2nd.
Mordenkainen’s Faithful Hound
4th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a tiny silver whistle, a piece of bone, and a thread)
Duration: 8 hours
You conjure a phantom watchdog in an unoccupied space that you can see within range, where it remains for the duration, until you dismiss it as an action, or until you move more than 100 feet away from it.
The hound is invisible to all creatures except you and can’t be harmed. When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound sees invisible creatures and can see into the Ethereal Plane. It ignores illusions.
At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one creature within 5 feet of it that is hostile to you. The hound’s attack bonus is equal to your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus. On a hit, it deals 4d8 piercing damage.
—-
Mordenkainen’s Faithful Hound
Level 4 Conjuration (Wizard)
Casting Time: Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a silver whistle)
Duration: 8 hours
You conjure a phantom watchdog in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The hound remains for the duration or until the two of you are more than 300 feet apart from each other.
No one but you can see the hound, and it is intangible and invulnerable. When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound has Truesight with a range of 30 feet.
At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one enemy within 5 feet of it. That enemy must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 4d8 Force damage.
On your later turns, you can take a Magic action to move the hound up to 30 feet.