Planning a human devotion paladin that only uses a massive shield for both defense and offense. Going to take tavern brawler as the free feat on human, protection style on paladin, and shield master at level 4. I know I'll be sacrificing damage for this, but I've always wanted the concept of a pc that fights and defends with a massive towering shield.
1. Using the 2024 rules on tavern brawler could I use the shield as an improvised weapon?
2. Could the improvised weapon/shield count as a melee weapon for things like divine smite and sacred weapon RAW to help increase the damage of the improvised weapon?
Theoretically, looking to imbue the shield with radiant damage from sacred weapon, make my attack with it, then use shield master to bash and knock a target prone while leaving my bonus action free for offensive spells like divine smite or support spells to buff allies and guard them with protection fighting style.
1. Yes, you can use the Improvised Weapon rules with a shield in 5e. I believe there is a Crawford tweet about it somewhere, but I don't mess with "X.com" anymore, so you'll have to look that up yourself. Using Tavern Brawler, you can add your Prof bonus to attack rolls, and it'll do 1d4 + STR damage.
2. I am sure there might be some debate on the RAW of this. I'm sure some people will say "No, it isn't a Melee Weapon because it is an Improvised Weapon, and that is different." I can see the argument, but honestly for this as a DM I would allow it. With Tavern Brawler you are proficient with it as a weapon and you are using it as a melee weapon. Honestly, you are taking a hit in the damage output by not taking a weapon that deals more damage, so I don't see there being any harm in allowing it to be a melee weapon. If it were something that is specifically described as a Ranged Weapon but you are using it in a melee fashion, I could see being more of a stickler about it ("The spell specifies Melee Weapon...") but I'd still probably allow it, since you are sacrificing damage anyway.
I actually made a character called Shieldy McShieldface that used the Tavern Brawler and Dual Wielder feat to dual wield shields as his only weapons. Pretty fun character, if not optimized.
Using Tavern Brawler, you can add your Prof bonus to attack rolls, and it'll do 1d4 + STR damage.
No it won't because Enhanced Unarmed Strike works when you hit with your Unarmed Strike and deal damage, you can deal Bludgeoning damage equal to 1d4 plus your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage of an Unarmed Strike.
Attacking with a Shield isn't an Unarmed Strike. So RAW Damage Rerolls and Push also don't apply.
Using Tavern Brawler, you can add your Prof bonus to attack rolls, and it'll do 1d4 + STR damage.
No it won't because Enhanced Unarmed Strike works when you hit with your Unarmed Strike and deal damage, you can deal Bludgeoning damage equal to 1d4 plus your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage of an Unarmed Strike.
Attacking with a Shield isn't an Unarmed Strike. So RAW Damage Rerolls and Push also don't apply.
What? Attacking with a shield is using it as an Improvised Weapon. All improvised weapons do 1d4 damage (type up to the DM) unless they resemble an actual weapon (like a chair leg being used as a club).
As with all weapon attacks, you add your modifier, STR for melee and DEX for ranged (and I don't think we're assuming the Shield is a fineness weapon). I don't know where anything about Damage Rerolls or Push came from either.
It's worth noting this bit of the rules on Improvised Weapons:
Weapon Equivalents. If an improvised weapon resembles a Simple or Martial weapon, the DM may say it functions as that weapon and uses that weapon’s rules. For example, the DM could treat a table leg as a Club.
I don't think it's unreasonable to treat a shield as something similar to an existing weapon (maybe a mace?) especially if that's the character's whole Thing™, in which case it would be eligible for use with things like Divine Smite because we're pretending it's a weapon. It's a question for your DM to answer in the context of their particular table.
Using Tavern Brawler, you can add your Prof bonus to attack rolls, and it'll do 1d4 + STR damage.
No it won't because Enhanced Unarmed Strike works when you hit with your Unarmed Strike and deal damage, you can deal Bludgeoning damage equal to 1d4 plus your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage of an Unarmed Strike.
Attacking with a Shield isn't an Unarmed Strike. So RAW Damage Rerolls and Push also don't apply.
What? Attacking with a shield is using it as an Improvised Weapon. All improvised weapons do 1d4 damage (type up to the DM) unless they resemble an actual weapon (like a chair leg being used as a club).
As with all weapon attacks, you add your modifier, STR for melee and DEX for ranged (and I don't think we're assuming the Shield is a fineness weapon). I don't know where anything about Damage Rerolls or Push came from either.
The Tavern Brawler feat and its benefits Enhanced Unarmed Strike, Damage Rerolls, and Push rely on using your Unarmed Strike.
Using Tavern Brawler, you can add your Prof bonus to attack rolls, and it'll do 1d4 + STR damage.
No it won't because Enhanced Unarmed Strike works when you hit with your Unarmed Strike and deal damage, you can deal Bludgeoning damage equal to 1d4 plus your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage of an Unarmed Strike.
Attacking with a Shield isn't an Unarmed Strike. So RAW Damage Rerolls and Push also don't apply.
What? Attacking with a shield is using it as an Improvised Weapon. All improvised weapons do 1d4 damage (type up to the DM) unless they resemble an actual weapon (like a chair leg being used as a club).
As with all weapon attacks, you add your modifier, STR for melee and DEX for ranged (and I don't think we're assuming the Shield is a fineness weapon). I don't know where anything about Damage Rerolls or Push came from either.
The Tavern Brawler feat and its benefits Enhanced Unarmed Strike, Damage Rerolls, and Push rely on using your Unarmed Strike.
But I never said anything about any of those. I'm very confused.
We're discussing using a shield as an improvised weapon, yeah?
A shield is obviously not an unarmed strike. So anything that applies to "unarmed strikes" wouldn't apply to the shield. This goes without saying.
An improvised weapon deals 1d4 damage + Modifier always. Without any feats or anything.
The Tavern Brawler feat allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll.
That's literally all I said, but then was told "No, because Enhanced Unarmed Strike ...." Enhanced Unarmed Strike had nothing to do with my statement at all. I just described literally how Tavern Brawler would interact with using a shield as an improvised weapon. You add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll, and then the damage is 1d4 + STR (for a melee improvised weapon like a shield) of whatever damage type the DM decides (for a shield bash, my guess is bludgeoning).
2. I am sure there might be some debate on the RAW of this. I'm sure some people will say "No, it isn't a Melee Weapon because it is an Improvised Weapon, and that is different." I can see the argument, but honestly for this as a DM I would allow it. With Tavern Brawler you are proficient with it as a weapon and you are using it as a melee weapon. Honestly, you are taking a hit in the damage output by not taking a weapon that deals more damage, so I don't see there being any harm in allowing it to be a melee weapon. If it were something that is specifically described as a Ranged Weapon but you are using it in a melee fashion, I could see being more of a stickler about it ("The spell specifies Melee Weapon...") but I'd still probably allow it, since you are sacrificing damage anyway.
I can't find anything in the '24 rules that suggests an improvised weapon used to make a melee attack would not be a Melee weapon
In fact, the Equipment section explicitly says
Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance.
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
1. Yes, you can use the Improvised Weapon rules with a shield in 5e. I believe there is a Crawford tweet about it somewhere, but I don't mess with "X.com" anymore, so you'll have to look that up yourself. Using Tavern Brawler, you can add your Prof bonus to attack rolls, and it'll do 1d4 + STR damage.
2. I am sure there might be some debate on the RAW of this. I'm sure some people will say "No, it isn't a Melee Weapon because it is an Improvised Weapon, and that is different." I can see the argument, but honestly for this as a DM I would allow it. With Tavern Brawler you are proficient with it as a weapon and you are using it as a melee weapon. Honestly, you are taking a hit in the damage output by not taking a weapon that deals more damage, so I don't see there being any harm in allowing it to be a melee weapon. If it were something that is specifically described as a Ranged Weapon but you are using it in a melee fashion, I could see being more of a stickler about it ("The spell specifies Melee Weapon...") but I'd still probably allow it, since you are sacrificing damage anyway.
I actually made a character called Shieldy McShieldface that used the Tavern Brawler and Dual Wielder feat to dual wield shields as his only weapons. Pretty fun character, if not optimized.
Thats exactly what I'm thinking. I do remember seeing the Crawford tweets about smiting with non-explitetely melee weapons, but with the 2024 changes allowing unarmed strikes to smite it'd only make sense for improvised weapons to work as well. Ive also not seen anything that specifically states improvised weapons DON'T count as melee weapons under the 2024 rules.
Like, yes, a shield isn't a weapon. Neither is a table leg or an empty bottle, but they can be used as one if needed (even if its weaker than an actual weapon) and that's exactly what the improvised weapon part of tavern brawler is for.
Shieldy McShieldface sounds like a fun one to play. The paladin I'm trying to build with this is dragging around a big gilded metal shield nearly as tall as he is that looks like something out of warhammer. Using it will be a two-hands job. If i could attach an image here I would.
2. I am sure there might be some debate on the RAW of this. I'm sure some people will say "No, it isn't a Melee Weapon because it is an Improvised Weapon, and that is different." I can see the argument, but honestly for this as a DM I would allow it. With Tavern Brawler you are proficient with it as a weapon and you are using it as a melee weapon. Honestly, you are taking a hit in the damage output by not taking a weapon that deals more damage, so I don't see there being any harm in allowing it to be a melee weapon. If it were something that is specifically described as a Ranged Weapon but you are using it in a melee fashion, I could see being more of a stickler about it ("The spell specifies Melee Weapon...") but I'd still probably allow it, since you are sacrificing damage anyway.
I can't find anything in the '24 rules that suggests an improvised weapon used to make a melee attack would not be a Melee weapon
In fact, the Equipment section explicitly says
Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance.
Exactly my point. Technically an improvised weapon is still a weapon and as long as I'm not trying to be captain America and throw it, a shield could still be considered a melee weapon for the purpose of using smites.
True, yes, a shield is not normally considered a weapon, but the whole point of improvised weaponry is to use things that are not normally weapons as weapons.
If you attack with a Shield—most likely as an improvised weapon—do you keep the +2 bonus to AC?
Attacking with a Shield doesn’t deprive you of the Shield’s bonus to AC.
Even here. Technically, this verbiage doesnt say a shield cant be used as a weapon. It just says that if you use a shield as an improvised weapon to make an attack you dont lose the benefit of having the shield equipped.
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Planning a human devotion paladin that only uses a massive shield for both defense and offense. Going to take tavern brawler as the free feat on human, protection style on paladin, and shield master at level 4. I know I'll be sacrificing damage for this, but I've always wanted the concept of a pc that fights and defends with a massive towering shield.
1. Using the 2024 rules on tavern brawler could I use the shield as an improvised weapon?
2. Could the improvised weapon/shield count as a melee weapon for things like divine smite and sacred weapon RAW to help increase the damage of the improvised weapon?
Theoretically, looking to imbue the shield with radiant damage from sacred weapon, make my attack with it, then use shield master to bash and knock a target prone while leaving my bonus action free for offensive spells like divine smite or support spells to buff allies and guard them with protection fighting style.
1. Yes, you can use the Improvised Weapon rules with a shield in 5e. I believe there is a Crawford tweet about it somewhere, but I don't mess with "X.com" anymore, so you'll have to look that up yourself. Using Tavern Brawler, you can add your Prof bonus to attack rolls, and it'll do 1d4 + STR damage.
2. I am sure there might be some debate on the RAW of this. I'm sure some people will say "No, it isn't a Melee Weapon because it is an Improvised Weapon, and that is different." I can see the argument, but honestly for this as a DM I would allow it. With Tavern Brawler you are proficient with it as a weapon and you are using it as a melee weapon. Honestly, you are taking a hit in the damage output by not taking a weapon that deals more damage, so I don't see there being any harm in allowing it to be a melee weapon. If it were something that is specifically described as a Ranged Weapon but you are using it in a melee fashion, I could see being more of a stickler about it ("The spell specifies Melee Weapon...") but I'd still probably allow it, since you are sacrificing damage anyway.
I actually made a character called Shieldy McShieldface that used the Tavern Brawler and Dual Wielder feat to dual wield shields as his only weapons. Pretty fun character, if not optimized.
1. While you can use a Shield as an Improvised Weapons, most of Tavern Brawler's benefits won't apply besides Improvised Weaponry.
2. No because a Shield is not a weapon.
No it won't because Enhanced Unarmed Strike works when you hit with your Unarmed Strike and deal damage, you can deal Bludgeoning damage equal to 1d4 plus your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage of an Unarmed Strike.
Attacking with a Shield isn't an Unarmed Strike. So RAW Damage Rerolls and Push also don't apply.
What? Attacking with a shield is using it as an Improvised Weapon. All improvised weapons do 1d4 damage (type up to the DM) unless they resemble an actual weapon (like a chair leg being used as a club).
As with all weapon attacks, you add your modifier, STR for melee and DEX for ranged (and I don't think we're assuming the Shield is a fineness weapon). I don't know where anything about Damage Rerolls or Push came from either.
It's worth noting this bit of the rules on Improvised Weapons:
I don't think it's unreasonable to treat a shield as something similar to an existing weapon (maybe a mace?) especially if that's the character's whole Thing™, in which case it would be eligible for use with things like Divine Smite because we're pretending it's a weapon. It's a question for your DM to answer in the context of their particular table.
pronouns: he/she/they
The Tavern Brawler feat and its benefits Enhanced Unarmed Strike, Damage Rerolls, and Push rely on using your Unarmed Strike.
But I never said anything about any of those. I'm very confused.
We're discussing using a shield as an improvised weapon, yeah?
A shield is obviously not an unarmed strike. So anything that applies to "unarmed strikes" wouldn't apply to the shield. This goes without saying.
An improvised weapon deals 1d4 damage + Modifier always. Without any feats or anything.
The Tavern Brawler feat allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll.
That's literally all I said, but then was told "No, because Enhanced Unarmed Strike ...." Enhanced Unarmed Strike had nothing to do with my statement at all. I just described literally how Tavern Brawler would interact with using a shield as an improvised weapon. You add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll, and then the damage is 1d4 + STR (for a melee improvised weapon like a shield) of whatever damage type the DM decides (for a shield bash, my guess is bludgeoning).
I can't find anything in the '24 rules that suggests an improvised weapon used to make a melee attack would not be a Melee weapon
In fact, the Equipment section explicitly says
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thats exactly what I'm thinking. I do remember seeing the Crawford tweets about smiting with non-explitetely melee weapons, but with the 2024 changes allowing unarmed strikes to smite it'd only make sense for improvised weapons to work as well. Ive also not seen anything that specifically states improvised weapons DON'T count as melee weapons under the 2024 rules.
Like, yes, a shield isn't a weapon. Neither is a table leg or an empty bottle, but they can be used as one if needed (even if its weaker than an actual weapon) and that's exactly what the improvised weapon part of tavern brawler is for.
Shieldy McShieldface sounds like a fun one to play. The paladin I'm trying to build with this is dragging around a big gilded metal shield nearly as tall as he is that looks like something out of warhammer. Using it will be a two-hands job. If i could attach an image here I would.
Exactly my point. Technically an improvised weapon is still a weapon and as long as I'm not trying to be captain America and throw it, a shield could still be considered a melee weapon for the purpose of using smites.
True, yes, a shield is not normally considered a weapon, but the whole point of improvised weaponry is to use things that are not normally weapons as weapons.
Even here. Technically, this verbiage doesnt say a shield cant be used as a weapon. It just says that if you use a shield as an improvised weapon to make an attack you dont lose the benefit of having the shield equipped.