The table has been discussing an Arcane Trickster build, for a Level 20 one shot. Nobody can agree on what 4th level spells to pick, considering that most Legendary Monsters have blindsight and Greater Invisibility is basically pointless.
Enter Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. This might not seem like much, with only 4d8 force damage with 5ft range. However, it is a summon that last 8 HOURS. Additionally, it does not require concentration. Additionally, it is invisible, cannot be targeted by anybody else, can move 30 feet per turn, and never takes any damage. In short, an invincible summon that lasts for 8 hours and does not require concentration.
Here are my current concerns/questions about the MFH rules: 1) Is Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound a creature that can be targeted by spells by the caster who cast it? (ie buff spells) 2) Can the MFH hop up and ride a mount, such as a riding horse or Phantom Steed? 3) Can the MFH hop up onto Tenser's Floating Disk and automatically follow the caster while the caster rides a mount (i.e. Phantom Steed?). 4) Can MFH be swallowed by larger creatures, such as the Tarrasque? 5) Can MFH be cast and then stowed away in a Bag of Holding, so that he doesn't bark when you are sneaking around? Or can you muzzle him or just command him not to bark until you put him into "guard mode" or whatever. 6) Can the caster use a magical method to see via the MFH and thereby gain "True Sight" as if looking through a familiar?
I appreciate any and all opinions, as well as suggestions for tactics with MFH if you have used it before in battle. What am I not seeing?
For reference:
Level
4th
Casting Time
1 Action
Range/Area
30 ft.
Components
V, S, M *
Duration
8 Hours
School
Conjuration
Attack/Save
DEX Save
Damage/Effect
Force
You conjure a phantom watchdog in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The hound remains for the duration or until the two of you are more than 300 feet apart from each other.
No one but you can see the hound, and it is intangible and invulnerable. When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound has Truesight with a range of 30 feet.
At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one enemy within 5 feet of it. That enemy must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 4d8 Force damage.
On your later turns, you can take a Magic action to move the hound up to 30 feet.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
Well Guardian of Faith has the summoning tag LOL but I see where you are coming from.
So in your understanding, is a creature defined as something with a stat card? Or can a creature be a “non stat card”?
For instance there are many animals that do not have a stat card, but are still creatures logically.
And a Specter has a stat card so is it safe to say that “spectral” means also a creature in the same way a specter is a creature?
In this case it is a Hound. There is a Mastiff stat card that could be utilized. I’m not sayin this is RAW or even RAI, but I’m just saying a Hound that is not an illusion might be a creature in the same way a familiar is a creature even though it is a summon/conjuration.
But even if it is not a creature per se, the 30 foot movement could be onto a Tenser’s floating disk, yes? And then it could move? Maybe it could also move into a bag of holding? I don’t see the word teleport so I suppose it literally just walks.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
Well Guardian of Faith has the summoning tag LOL but I see where you are coming from.
The "summoning" tag is an artifact of D&D Beyond's categorization system and not part of any official rules.
And a Specter has a stat card so is it safe to say that “spectral” means also a creature in the same way a specter is a creature?
...no, that does not make any sense. The fact that the spell uses a descriptive word that is etymologically related to the name of a totally unrelated creature has no impact on the actual rules.
In this case it is a Hound. There is a Mastiff stat card that could be utilized. I’m not sayin this is RAW or even RAI, but I’m just saying a Hound that is not an illusion might be a creature in the same way a familiar is a creature even though it is a summon/conjuration.
I mean, sure, you can house-rule anything you want, but "Do the rules allow me to do X?" and "Can I house-rule that I'm allowed to do X?" are two very different questions, and you're posting in the forum for the former type of question.
A Hound that's not an illusion might be a creature, sure, but under the actual rules, this one is not.
But even if it is not a creature per se, the 30 foot movement could be onto a Tenser’s floating disk, yes? And then it could move? Maybe it could also move into a bag of holding? I don’t see the word teleport so I suppose it literally just walks.
Nothing is saying you can't move the Hound onto a Tenser's Floating Disk, but since the Hound is described as intangible, the disk can't interact with it or support it.
As for a Bag of Holding, I would definitely rule that that doesn't work since the Hound, again, is not intended to be a tangible thing that takes up space or can be put inside things. Attempts to move it around outside of the explicitly defined way you can move it would fall under the "good faith interpretation" principle.
Plus, the Hound disappears if it's more than 300 feet from the caster, and inside a Bag of Holding is literally another universe.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
Well Guardian of Faith has the summoning tag LOL but I see where you are coming from.
The "summoning" tag is an artifact of D&D Beyond's categorization system and not part of any official rules.
And a Specter has a stat card so is it safe to say that “spectral” means also a creature in the same way a specter is a creature?
...no, that does not make any sense. The fact that the spell uses a descriptive word that is etymologically related to the name of a totally unrelated creature has no impact on the actual rules.
In this case it is a Hound. There is a Mastiff stat card that could be utilized. I’m not sayin this is RAW or even RAI, but I’m just saying a Hound that is not an illusion might be a creature in the same way a familiar is a creature even though it is a summon/conjuration.
I mean, sure, you can house-rule anything you want, but "Do the rules allow me to do X?" and "Can I house-rule that I'm allowed to do X?" are two very different questions, and you're posting in the forum for the former type of question.
A Hound that's not an illusion might be a creature, sure, but under the actual rules, this one is not.
But even if it is not a creature per se, the 30 foot movement could be onto a Tenser’s floating disk, yes? And then it could move? Maybe it could also move into a bag of holding? I don’t see the word teleport so I suppose it literally just walks.
Nothing is saying you can't move the Hound onto a Tenser's Floating Disk, but since the Hound is described as intangible, the disk can't interact with it or support it.
As for a Bag of Holding, I would definitely rule that that doesn't work since the Hound, again, is not intended to be a tangible thing that takes up space or can be put inside things. Attempts to move it around outside of the explicitly defined way you can move it would fall under the "good faith interpretation" principle.
Plus, the Hound disappears if it's more than 300 feet from the caster, and inside a Bag of Holding is literally another universe.
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
I think the Exploit/Combo I had in mind was basically using the Tenser’s Floating Disk to follow the caster on Phantom Steed and to get past the 30 ft movement limitation because it would effectively follow me with the MFH aboard.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
Also I had thought about the Bag of Holding having a doggie tail hanging out of it so it is still “in range” but the face is covered.
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
That's correct. Since it's not a creature, it can't be the target of spells that target creatures.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
There are a few Metamagic options that could apply:
Distant Spell could be used to extend the range of the initial deployment of the spell (though it doesn't affect the distance it can be away from you).
Empowered Spell could be used on the Hound's damage rolls.
Extended Spell would increase the spell's duration to 16 hours.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell.
Quickened Spell could be used to cast the spell as a bonus action.
Subtle Spell could be used to cast it without any components.
Again, though, the main purpose of this spell is to protect you from ambushes and surprise attacks.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell. [...]
I'm ruling that metamagic option differently, based on this opinion from the Dev (Careful Spell has similar wording to Heightened Spell):
@quadhund Just my monthly ask about whether Careful Spell can be used with Cloudkill? @JeremyECrawford Careful Spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect saving throws made that turn.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell. [...]
I'm ruling that metamagic option differently, based on this opinion from the Dev (Careful Spell has similar wording to Heightened Spell):
@quadhund Just my monthly ask about whether Careful Spell can be used with Cloudkill? @JeremyECrawford Careful Spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect saving throws made that turn.
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
That's correct. Since it's not a creature, it can't be the target of spells that target creatures.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
There are a few Metamagic options that could apply:
Distant Spell could be used to extend the range of the initial deployment of the spell (though it doesn't affect the distance it can be away from you).
Empowered Spell could be used on the Hound's damage rolls.
Extended Spell would increase the spell's duration to 16 hours.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell.
Quickened Spell could be used to cast the spell as a bonus action.
Subtle Spell could be used to cast it without any components.
Again, though, the main purpose of this spell is to protect you from ambushes and surprise attacks.
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
That's correct. Since it's not a creature, it can't be the target of spells that target creatures.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
There are a few Metamagic options that could apply:
Distant Spell could be used to extend the range of the initial deployment of the spell (though it doesn't affect the distance it can be away from you).
Empowered Spell could be used on the Hound's damage rolls.
Extended Spell would increase the spell's duration to 16 hours.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell.
Quickened Spell could be used to cast the spell as a bonus action.
Subtle Spell could be used to cast it without any components.
Again, though, the main purpose of this spell is to protect you from ambushes and surprise attacks.
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
That's correct. Since it's not a creature, it can't be the target of spells that target creatures.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
There are a few Metamagic options that could apply:
Distant Spell could be used to extend the range of the initial deployment of the spell (though it doesn't affect the distance it can be away from you).
Empowered Spell could be used on the Hound's damage rolls.
Extended Spell would increase the spell's duration to 16 hours.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell.
Quickened Spell could be used to cast the spell as a bonus action.
Subtle Spell could be used to cast it without any components.
Again, though, the main purpose of this spell is to protect you from ambushes and surprise attacks.
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
I also would love to find a way to increase the 4d8 or the range.
The one-shot I have in mind is basically to take down a terrasque that has a few baddies riding on the back to shoot back at flying archers. It will probably be a party of 6, where everyone gets 5-7 “any” magic items and we just have to kill it before it walks a mile and destroys a city.
The MFH is a really good option because the terrasque is so big it could probably be in range of it almost every round if it is set up right. And its invulnerable. I’m just playing around with the concept for a Trickster.
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
That's already been established that it is not possible. The Hound cannot be carried and does not move on its own. It can only move 30 feet if you take the Magic action to move it. In addition, the Tarrasque will have advantage on the saving throw against the Hound's damage due to Magic Resistance meaning that most turns, the hound will deal no damage. With the Tarrasque's movement, it's going to be hard to pin it in place near the Hound and even if you manage it, it will do pitiful damage.
By the time you are fighting a Tarrasque, there are far better options in terms of actions and spell slots.
The table has been discussing an Arcane Trickster build, for a Level 20 one shot. Nobody can agree on what 4th level spells to pick, considering that most Legendary Monsters have blindsight and Greater Invisibility is basically pointless.
Enter Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. This might not seem like much, with only 4d8 force damage with 5ft range. However, it is a summon that last 8 HOURS. Additionally, it does not require concentration. Additionally, it is invisible, cannot be targeted by anybody else, can move 30 feet per turn, and never takes any damage. In short, an invincible summon that lasts for 8 hours and does not require concentration.
Here are my current concerns/questions about the MFH rules:
1) Is Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound a creature that can be targeted by spells by the caster who cast it? (ie buff spells)
2) Can the MFH hop up and ride a mount, such as a riding horse or Phantom Steed?
3) Can the MFH hop up onto Tenser's Floating Disk and automatically follow the caster while the caster rides a mount (i.e. Phantom Steed?).
4) Can MFH be swallowed by larger creatures, such as the Tarrasque?
5) Can MFH be cast and then stowed away in a Bag of Holding, so that he doesn't bark when you are sneaking around? Or can you muzzle him or just command him not to bark until you put him into "guard mode" or whatever.
6) Can the caster use a magical method to see via the MFH and thereby gain "True Sight" as if looking through a familiar?
I appreciate any and all opinions, as well as suggestions for tactics with MFH if you have used it before in battle. What am I not seeing?
For reference:
You conjure a phantom watchdog in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The hound remains for the duration or until the two of you are more than 300 feet apart from each other.
No one but you can see the hound, and it is intangible and invulnerable. When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound has Truesight with a range of 30 feet.
At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one enemy within 5 feet of it. That enemy must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 4d8 Force damage.
On your later turns, you can take a Magic action to move the hound up to 30 feet.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
pronouns: he/she/they
Well Guardian of Faith has the summoning tag LOL but I see where you are coming from.
So in your understanding, is a creature defined as something with a stat card? Or can a creature be a “non stat card”?
For instance there are many animals that do not have a stat card, but are still creatures logically.
And a Specter has a stat card so is it safe to say that “spectral” means also a creature in the same way a specter is a creature?
In this case it is a Hound. There is a Mastiff stat card that could be utilized. I’m not sayin this is RAW or even RAI, but I’m just saying a Hound that is not an illusion might be a creature in the same way a familiar is a creature even though it is a summon/conjuration.
But even if it is not a creature per se, the 30 foot movement could be onto a Tenser’s floating disk, yes? And then it could move? Maybe it could also move into a bag of holding? I don’t see the word teleport so I suppose it literally just walks.
The "summoning" tag is an artifact of D&D Beyond's categorization system and not part of any official rules.
The spell would need to provide a stat block and/or say explicitly that it was a creature for it to be a creature.
...no, that does not make any sense. The fact that the spell uses a descriptive word that is etymologically related to the name of a totally unrelated creature has no impact on the actual rules.
I mean, sure, you can house-rule anything you want, but "Do the rules allow me to do X?" and "Can I house-rule that I'm allowed to do X?" are two very different questions, and you're posting in the forum for the former type of question.
A Hound that's not an illusion might be a creature, sure, but under the actual rules, this one is not.
Nothing is saying you can't move the Hound onto a Tenser's Floating Disk, but since the Hound is described as intangible, the disk can't interact with it or support it.
As for a Bag of Holding, I would definitely rule that that doesn't work since the Hound, again, is not intended to be a tangible thing that takes up space or can be put inside things. Attempts to move it around outside of the explicitly defined way you can move it would fall under the "good faith interpretation" principle.
Plus, the Hound disappears if it's more than 300 feet from the caster, and inside a Bag of Holding is literally another universe.
pronouns: he/she/they
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
I think the Exploit/Combo I had in mind was basically using the Tenser’s Floating Disk to follow the caster on Phantom Steed and to get past the 30 ft movement limitation because it would effectively follow me with the MFH aboard.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
Also I had thought about the Bag of Holding having a doggie tail hanging out of it so it is still “in range” but the face is covered.
That's correct. Since it's not a creature, it can't be the target of spells that target creatures.
There are a few Metamagic options that could apply:
Again, though, the main purpose of this spell is to protect you from ambushes and surprise attacks.
pronouns: he/she/they
If the hound is intangible, can it be moved through walls and floors?
Any sufficiently widespread magic is indistinguishable from technology.
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I don't see why not.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'm ruling that metamagic option differently, based on this opinion from the Dev (Careful Spell has similar wording to Heightened Spell):
This kind of wording was recently debated in RAW, and "When a spell you cast...".
Anyway, I'm not saying my perspective is the only correct one.
I'd rule Careful and Heightened differently in 5.5e. Heightened has text specifying multiple saves and Careful doesn't.
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
I also would love to find a way to increase the 4d8 or the range.
The one-shot I have in mind is basically to take down a terrasque that has a few baddies riding on the back to shoot back at flying archers. It will probably be a party of 6, where everyone gets 5-7 “any” magic items and we just have to kill it before it walks a mile and destroys a city.
The MFH is a really good option because the terrasque is so big it could probably be in range of it almost every round if it is set up right. And its invulnerable. I’m just playing around with the concept for a Trickster.
But a Sorceror might have more fun lol
That's already been established that it is not possible. The Hound cannot be carried and does not move on its own. It can only move 30 feet if you take the Magic action to move it. In addition, the Tarrasque will have advantage on the saving throw against the Hound's damage due to Magic Resistance meaning that most turns, the hound will deal no damage. With the Tarrasque's movement, it's going to be hard to pin it in place near the Hound and even if you manage it, it will do pitiful damage.
By the time you are fighting a Tarrasque, there are far better options in terms of actions and spell slots.
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My houserulings.