Planning a human devotion paladin that only uses a massive shield for both defense and offense. Going to take tavern brawler as the free feat on human, protection style on paladin, and shield master at level 4. I know I'll be sacrificing damage for this, but I've always wanted the concept of a pc that fights and defends with a massive towering shield.
1. Using the 2024 rules on tavern brawler could I use the shield as an improvised weapon?
2. Could the improvised weapon/shield count as a melee weapon for things like divine smite and sacred weapon RAW to help increase the damage of the improvised weapon?
Theoretically, looking to imbue the shield with radiant damage from sacred weapon, make my attack with it, then use shield master to bash and knock a target prone while leaving my bonus action free for offensive spells like divine smite or support spells to buff allies and guard them with protection fighting style.
1. Yes.
2. RAW, maybe. But House Rule I would allow it. Your 2.5 average damage with a shield as an improvised weapon is not very deadly. I mean if I am going into battle and have to fight either a dude with just a sword or a dude with just a shield I’m picking the shield every time. BUT….. you could ask the DM to homebrew a weaponized shield that has spikes on it. Then you might do all the things.
Adding spike and stuff would be cool check with your DM, for inspiration look at the Elden Ring wiki shield section they have some cool weapon abilities
Making a melee attack with an object doesn't make it a Melee Weapon. Every weapon falls into a category: Simple or Martial and further classified as either Melee or Ranged. The Shield is not classified as Melee weapon, which is what Divine Smite or Sacred Weaponrequire specifically.
Incorrect
Every weapon listed on the chart in the PHB is either Simple or Martial, because those are the categories they are grouped into. An improvised weapon is neither -- otherwise, a fighter wouldn't need Tavern Brawler to have proficiency with improvised weapons, because they already have proficiency with all Simple and Martial
However, every weapon -- whether on the chart or otherwise -- must be either a Melee or Ranged weapon, because that is simply a description of the range at which they can be used
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
An Improvised Weapons is not a Simple Melee Weapons, Simple Ranged Weapons, Martial Melee Weapons or Martial Ranged Weapons simply because you make melee or ranged attack with one.
Another indication that making a melee or ranged attack with an object or weapon doesn't makes it a Melee or Ranged weapon is this;
Does the Archery feat work with a Melee weapon that you throw?
No, the Archery feat benefits only attack rolls you make with Ranged weapons. The Thrown Weapon Fighting feat benefits ranged attack rolls made with Melee weapons with the Thrown property.
While Shieldy McShieldface is funny, it's not working RAW either, as Dual Wielder work when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, which a Shield lacks.
Dual Wielder Legacy You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light. You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
I know you will say that the feat doesn't work because it says "melee weapon" and shields as an improvised weapon are not "melee weapons", which is fine as your ruling/opinion, but the Dual Wielder feat SPECIFICALLY removes the requirement for the weapons to have the light property.
I think you might be thinking of "Two-Weapon Fighting" as the base rule, not the Dual Wielder Feat.
While Shieldy McShieldface is funny, it's not working RAW either, as Dual Wielder work when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, which a Shield lacks.
Dual Wielder Legacy You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light. You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
I know you will say that the feat doesn't work because it says "melee weapon" and shields as an improvised weapon are not "melee weapons", which is fine as your ruling/opinion, but the Dual Wielder feat SPECIFICALLY removes the requirement for the weapons to have the light property.
I think you might be thinking of "Two-Weapon Fighting" as the base rule, not the Dual Wielder Feat.
That is the 2014/5e version of Dual Wielder. The 2024/5.5e version only allows one of the two weapons to be non-Light.
An Improvised Weapons is not a Simple Melee Weapons, Simple Ranged Weapons, Martial Melee Weapons or Martial Ranged Weapons simply because you make melee or ranged attack with one.
Another indication that making a melee or ranged attack with an object or weapon doesn't makes it a Melee or Ranged weapon is this;
Does the Archery feat work with a Melee weapon that you throw?
No, the Archery feat benefits only attack rolls you make with Ranged weapons. The Thrown Weapon Fighting feat benefits ranged attack rolls made with Melee weapons with the Thrown property.
Right, if you throw a Melee weapon it doesn't turn it into a Ranged weapon, because it isn't balanced or designed for use at range
That has no bearing at all on the question of whether improvised weapons are Melee weapons
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
While Shieldy McShieldface is funny, it's not working RAW either, as Dual Wielder work when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, which a Shield lacks.
Dual Wielder Legacy You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light. You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
I know you will say that the feat doesn't work because it says "melee weapon" and shields as an improvised weapon are not "melee weapons", which is fine as your ruling/opinion, but the Dual Wielder feat SPECIFICALLY removes the requirement for the weapons to have the light property.
I think you might be thinking of "Two-Weapon Fighting" as the base rule, not the Dual Wielder Feat.
That is the 2014/5e version of Dual Wielder. The 2024/5.5e version only allows one of the two weapons to be non-Light.
Yes, I play 2014. As far as I know, D&D Beyond is still for people playing 2014 as well, as there isn't a separate 2014 and 5.5 forums.
Yes, I play 2014. As far as I know, D&D Beyond is still for people playing 2014 as well, as there isn't a separate 2014 and 5.5 forums.
Sure, but this thread is about the 2024 rules, as mentioned in the original post.
But I stated how MY character Shieldy worked using the Dual Wielder feat (which is not part of the OP discussion at all) as just a fun aside about my character who uses two shields as weapons using the Improvised Weapons rules, as well (because I think using shields as a weapon is also a fun concept, like the OP) and then was told the way I was using it was not RAW, which is incorrect, because Shieldy is made using 2014 rules.
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Adding spike and stuff would be cool check with your DM, for inspiration look at the Elden Ring wiki shield section they have some cool weapon abilities
Incorrect
Every weapon listed on the chart in the PHB is either Simple or Martial, because those are the categories they are grouped into. An improvised weapon is neither -- otherwise, a fighter wouldn't need Tavern Brawler to have proficiency with improvised weapons, because they already have proficiency with all Simple and Martial
However, every weapon -- whether on the chart or otherwise -- must be either a Melee or Ranged weapon, because that is simply a description of the range at which they can be used
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
An Improvised Weapons is not a Simple Melee Weapons, Simple Ranged Weapons, Martial Melee Weapons or Martial Ranged Weapons simply because you make melee or ranged attack with one.
Another indication that making a melee or ranged attack with an object or weapon doesn't makes it a Melee or Ranged weapon is this;
Dual Wielder
Legacy
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
I know you will say that the feat doesn't work because it says "melee weapon" and shields as an improvised weapon are not "melee weapons", which is fine as your ruling/opinion, but the Dual Wielder feat SPECIFICALLY removes the requirement for the weapons to have the light property.
I think you might be thinking of "Two-Weapon Fighting" as the base rule, not the Dual Wielder Feat.
That is the 2014/5e version of Dual Wielder. The 2024/5.5e version only allows one of the two weapons to be non-Light.
pronouns: he/she/they
Right, if you throw a Melee weapon it doesn't turn it into a Ranged weapon, because it isn't balanced or designed for use at range
That has no bearing at all on the question of whether improvised weapons are Melee weapons
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes, I play 2014. As far as I know, D&D Beyond is still for people playing 2014 as well, as there isn't a separate 2014 and 5.5 forums.
Sure, but this thread is about the 2024 rules, as mentioned in the original post.
pronouns: he/she/they
But I stated how MY character Shieldy worked using the Dual Wielder feat (which is not part of the OP discussion at all) as just a fun aside about my character who uses two shields as weapons using the Improvised Weapons rules, as well (because I think using shields as a weapon is also a fun concept, like the OP) and then was told the way I was using it was not RAW, which is incorrect, because Shieldy is made using 2014 rules.