My reasoning is that since Vicious Weapon extra damage are of the same type as the weapon's normal damage, when you cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage, the extra damage is of that type.
Vicious Weapon: deals an extra 2d6 damage of the same type as the weapon's normal damage.
Pact of the Blade: you can cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or its normal damage type.
My reasoning is that since Vicious Weapon extra damage are of the same type as the weapon's normal damage, when you cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage, the extra damage is of that type.
Vicious Weapon: deals an extra 2d6 damage of the same type as the weapon's normal damage.
Pact of the Blade: you can cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or its normal damage type.
That would be ideal.
I do wonder though: Pact's Necrotic/Psychic or Radiant are described as not the normal damage type, slashing is. And vicious damage is the same as the normal. 🤔
I would disagree with Plaguescarred because it says
The Weapons Normal damage type
And, considering that the normal damage type is B/P/S, I would keep it as B/P/S
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Hello! Call meTana. My pronouns are She/Her. I am a teenager. I have Autism and ADHD. And, you would probably call me trans femme, Pansexual pancake, and ace I will mother you if you are being stupid. ALL HAIL MERLIN! [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] = [roll][roll:-6]+[roll:-5]+[roll:-4]+[roll:-3]+[roll:-2]+[roll:-1][/roll] I have adopted Golden, Salem, Wes, Aspen, and Foalin.
I guess the decision comes down to wether a Vicious Weapon still deal normal damage type when a Pact of the Blade cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage.
I guess the decision comes down to wether a Vicious Weapon still deal normal damage type when a Pact of the Blade cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage.
Yes, it does, and my take would be because the weapon deals B/P/S in anybody else's hands, which means that it should deal the same damage type. After all, you're only changing the damage type when you use it.
Now, if you had something that changed the damage type for anybody, then yeah, I would allow that
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Hello! Call meTana. My pronouns are She/Her. I am a teenager. I have Autism and ADHD. And, you would probably call me trans femme, Pansexual pancake, and ace I will mother you if you are being stupid. ALL HAIL MERLIN! [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] = [roll][roll:-6]+[roll:-5]+[roll:-4]+[roll:-3]+[roll:-2]+[roll:-1][/roll] I have adopted Golden, Salem, Wes, Aspen, and Foalin.
I thought there was a Sage Advice that was relevant regarding weapon damage, perhaps related to Great Weapon Master/Fighting Style, but I can't find it. I thought I'd mention it, in case someone else remembers.
I guess the decision comes down to wether a Vicious Weapon still deal normal damage type when a Pact of the Blade cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage.
Yes, it does, and my take would be because the weapon deals B/P/S in anybody else's hands, which means that it should deal the same damage type. After all, you're only changing the damage type when you use it.
Now, if you had something that changed the damage type for anybody, then yeah, I would allow that
Ok i see where you think it differ from say Elemental Cleaver that changes the damage type, Pact of the Blade let you deal a different damage type but not otherwise change anything.
In that case because Longsword normal damage type is Slashing, it means a Vicious Longsword extra damage is always Slashing.
I thought there was a Sage Advice that was relevant regarding weapon damage, perhaps related to Great Weapon Master/Fighting Style, but I can't find it. I thought I'd mention it, in case someone else remembers.
This seems to be the most probable interpretation right?
Another interpretation of Pact Weapon could be that it transmutes all the damage inflicted by the weapon that coincide with the normal damage type (slashing in this case) to radiant/psychic/force.
So a vicious long sword inflicts 1d8+2d6 of the normal damage type. Then Pact weapon converts it to radiant/psychic/force damage.
While this is not RAW, my general policy with this sort of thing is to minimize the number of different damage types happening at the same time as much as possible. Unless it makes a huge difference (which, let's be honest, it mostly doesn't) just let it all be the same type.
I think that the intent of Vicious Weapon is to increase the damage of a weapon, not to add a secondary damage type. So with a pact weapon, if you are changing the base damage type, I think that vicious weapon would also change to that type.
That would be my ruling. If you are attacking with psychic damage, it doesn't make sense to me to add b/p/s damage on top of it.
Further, I think that pact of the weapon supercedes the weapon itself. Pact of the Weapon causes the vicious weapon to change its damage type, not the other way around.
Likewise, if you had a flaming weapon that added fire damage normally, I would argue that pact of the weapon can change all of it to necrotic, psychic or radiant all at the same time.
I thought there was a Sage Advice that was relevant regarding weapon damage, perhaps related to Great Weapon Master/Fighting Style, but I can't find it. I thought I'd mention it, in case someone else remembers.
Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but just in case:
@Il_Gama Great Weapon Fighting and Battlemaster' Sweeping Attack: may I reroll the 1 and 2 of the superiority die? @JeremyECrawford Great Weapon Fighting works only with the damage dice of the qualifying weapon. @<> What if you’ve got a weird situation like a greatsword flametongue or frostbrand? Still only the 2d6 from the greatsword? @JeremyECrawford Those are weapons. Their dice are affected. @<> Sorry, to clarify just in case. 2d6 slashing +2d6 fire (for example). The 2d6 fire damage dice are re-rollable as they are weapon dice? @JeremyECrawford Yes. The description of the flame tongue (the weapon) even says the sword deals the extra damage.
If we want to follow that ruling, GFW should interact with Vicious Weapon and similar magic weapons.
I would disagree with Plaguescarred because it says
The Weapons Normal damage type
And, considering that the normal damage type is B/P/S, I would keep it as B/P/S
It's an order of operations thing for me. Vicious adds to the damage done by the weapon; Pact of the Blade lets you change the damage type the weapon does. I'd say all the damage gets changed, including the extra Vicious damage
It would be the same for something like true strike with a Vicious weapon
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I thought there was a Sage Advice that was relevant regarding weapon damage, perhaps related to Great Weapon Master/Fighting Style, but I can't find it. I thought I'd mention it, in case someone else remembers.
@Il_Gama Great Weapon Fighting and Battlemaster' Sweeping Attack: may I reroll the 1 and 2 of the superiority die? @JeremyECrawford Great Weapon Fighting works only with the damage dice of the qualifying weapon. @<> What if you’ve got a weird situation like a greatsword flametongue or frostbrand? Still only the 2d6 from the greatsword? @JeremyECrawford Those are weapons. Their dice are affected. @<> Sorry, to clarify just in case. 2d6 slashing +2d6 fire (for example). The 2d6 fire damage dice are re-rollable as they are weapon dice? @JeremyECrawford Yes. The description of the flame tongue (the weapon) even says the sword deals the extra damage.
If we want to follow that ruling, GFW should interact with Vicious Weapon and similar magic weapons.
Unfortunately, they are both from 2014's rules. However, I feel like the Jeremy Crawford tweet chain is consistent with the abilities. Note that in 2014, the Divine Smite ability was a separate instance of damage, so it makes sense that Great Weapon Fighting didn't apply. I think the logic still applies in 2024 and a Vicious Longsword's weapon damage is 1d8 + 2d6.
What kind of damage type does a vicious longsword inflicts when is the Pact Weapon of a Warlock?
Would it be 1d8 radiant +2d6 slashing? Or 1d8 radiant +2d6 radiant?
1d8 + 2d6 Slashing, Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage.
My reasoning is that since Vicious Weapon extra damage are of the same type as the weapon's normal damage, when you cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage, the extra damage is of that type.
That would be ideal.
I do wonder though: Pact's Necrotic/Psychic or Radiant are described as not the normal damage type, slashing is. And vicious damage is the same as the normal. 🤔
I agree with Plaguescarred. A similar interaction came up in Vicious weapon damage type with elemental cleaver
I would disagree with Plaguescarred because it says
And, considering that the normal damage type is B/P/S, I would keep it as B/P/S
Hello! Call me Tana.
My pronouns are She/Her.
I am a teenager. I have Autism and ADHD. And, you would probably call me trans femme, Pansexual pancake, and ace
I will mother you if you are being stupid.
ALL HAIL MERLIN! [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] = [roll][roll:-6]+[roll:-5]+[roll:-4]+[roll:-3]+[roll:-2]+[roll:-1][/roll]
I have adopted Golden, Salem, Wes, Aspen, and Foalin.
I guess the decision comes down to wether a Vicious Weapon still deal normal damage type when a Pact of the Blade cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage.
Yes, it does, and my take would be because the weapon deals B/P/S in anybody else's hands, which means that it should deal the same damage type. After all, you're only changing the damage type when you use it.
Now, if you had something that changed the damage type for anybody, then yeah, I would allow that
Hello! Call me Tana.
My pronouns are She/Her.
I am a teenager. I have Autism and ADHD. And, you would probably call me trans femme, Pansexual pancake, and ace
I will mother you if you are being stupid.
ALL HAIL MERLIN! [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] + [roll]1d4[/roll] = [roll][roll:-6]+[roll:-5]+[roll:-4]+[roll:-3]+[roll:-2]+[roll:-1][/roll]
I have adopted Golden, Salem, Wes, Aspen, and Foalin.
I thought there was a Sage Advice that was relevant regarding weapon damage, perhaps related to Great Weapon Master/Fighting Style, but I can't find it. I thought I'd mention it, in case someone else remembers.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Ok i see where you think it differ from say Elemental Cleaver that changes the damage type, Pact of the Blade let you deal a different damage type but not otherwise change anything.
In that case because Longsword normal damage type is Slashing, it means a Vicious Longsword extra damage is always Slashing.
This? Sage Advice Compendium (2014) - Sage Advice Compendium - Dungeons & Dragons - Sources - D&D Beyond
This seems to be the most probable interpretation right?
Another interpretation of Pact Weapon could be that it transmutes all the damage inflicted by the weapon that coincide with the normal damage type (slashing in this case) to radiant/psychic/force.
So a vicious long sword inflicts 1d8+2d6 of the normal damage type. Then Pact weapon converts it to radiant/psychic/force damage.
But not sure if it stands to scrutiny.
While this is not RAW, my general policy with this sort of thing is to minimize the number of different damage types happening at the same time as much as possible. Unless it makes a huge difference (which, let's be honest, it mostly doesn't) just let it all be the same type.
pronouns: he/she/they
I think that the intent of Vicious Weapon is to increase the damage of a weapon, not to add a secondary damage type. So with a pact weapon, if you are changing the base damage type, I think that vicious weapon would also change to that type.
That would be my ruling. If you are attacking with psychic damage, it doesn't make sense to me to add b/p/s damage on top of it.
Further, I think that pact of the weapon supercedes the weapon itself. Pact of the Weapon causes the vicious weapon to change its damage type, not the other way around.
Likewise, if you had a flaming weapon that added fire damage normally, I would argue that pact of the weapon can change all of it to necrotic, psychic or radiant all at the same time.
Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but just in case:
It's an order of operations thing for me. Vicious adds to the damage done by the weapon; Pact of the Blade lets you change the damage type the weapon does. I'd say all the damage gets changed, including the extra Vicious damage
It would be the same for something like true strike with a Vicious weapon
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes. And also:
Unfortunately, they are both from 2014's rules. However, I feel like the Jeremy Crawford tweet chain is consistent with the abilities. Note that in 2014, the Divine Smite ability was a separate instance of damage, so it makes sense that Great Weapon Fighting didn't apply. I think the logic still applies in 2024 and a Vicious Longsword's weapon damage is 1d8 + 2d6.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.