Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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But Command isn’t overpowered, if you have 4 encounters of Easy & Medium difficulty, Command is a terrible spell to constantly spam. Not only does it target Wisdom saves (pretty common), but it does literally nothing if they succeed, which means you’re going to get mauled by giant spiders or bugbears.
It’s nowhere good enough to compete with aoe against large groups, it doesn’t kill the target nor does it buff your allies. Command won’t be game breaking against 7 Gnoll Warriors and a Death Dog, sure it can turn the tide of the battle if used at the right moment, but that’s literally a majority of spells.
First of all, thanks for your reply!
Okay, I'll try to answer in the correct order:
1) I didn't pick the Hill Giant because it's a favorable enemy to prove my point. And I don't own the Spelljammer: Adventures in Space book to have access to that elf. I've picked it because it's a really common example of a 3~10 CR monster that is very vulnerable to Control Spells. I could open a thread just to discuss the Hill Giant issue, but that's not the point, it's about the Command spell.
2) If you think the issue is the monster having the prone condition, I believe you misunderstood me. We can go with "Halt. On its turn, the target doesn’t move and takes no action or Bonus Action.". Doesn't make a difference to my point. In 2014, what happened was: if the spell caster's language was not known by the monster, the spell would just fail. The spell had a restriction, and now it doesn't have any.
3) So I challenge you with this question: what's better than trying to Commant the Hill Giant - or any other creature, be it CR 1, 2, 3 .... 10 - with a level 1 spell? What spell makes the creature lose it's turn regardless of anything else while consuming a spell 1 slot? Tasha's Hideous Laughter lets the enemy roll additional WIS ST with advantage after being damaged. Sleep doesn't work on undead. There is no such spell, Command rules over all of them. I don't even want to discuss if it's more powerful than 3rd level spells, but IMO it is more powerful than any other 1st level or 2nd level spell.
4) You can advocate that from the 2024 version of Command. In any other versions of the game, the spell had language barrier restrictions or wasn't a control spell. Of course the Bard could know Giant. And that's cool, Giants would be easier to handle for that Bard, which would make sense. But now it's a Joker Card, so to speak, since language isn't a barrier and the spell will work against all enemies regardless of what. Different from any other control spells of level 1 or 2.
5) Again, it's not about being prone. I can agree that Tasha's Hideous Laughter's effects are stronger than Command's. But it is so with a counterpart: if the creature takes damage, it re-rolls the save with advantage. So it's less likely for the monster to stay put. Command doesn't care about that at all and players that have some experience with the game will not be giving Opportunity Attacks to a commanded opponent. That's my whole point: it is a 1st level spell that removes the action from an opponent, doesn't matter who they are or what is done to them. Sleep doesn't work on undead and, if an asleep creature gets hit, it awakens - no turn lost. Tasha's give the enemy a chance with advantage to re-roll every single time it is damaged. WHY would you cast sleep or tasha's being a low-level spellcaster? What is the control spell that even gets NEAR the action-economy burst of a Command spell? I can agree with you that against an opponent that is concentrating a powerful spell, Tasha's better. But that's a single scenario, super unlikely at lower levels.
6) I think that by answering the previous topics, I made it clear: Command is broken because it forces an opponent to lose it's action and movement, without any requirements, and being more useful in 99% of the possible battles that we can foresee than the other control spells. Sleep turns into a situational spell, just like Tasha's, because overall Command is just better.
Am I being blind here? It's hard for me to understand why you guys think the spell isn't in it's most powerful spot in the history of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise. That in pratical terms it's the most powerful control spell you can use. Of course a hold monster allows the creature to be crit'ed often, but in that power level, the monsters will have LR. And Command forces them to spend it in a way that no other spell would. It's an unfair spell in it's current state.
I'm not saying it's the most poweful spell out there. I'm saying it is an over-powered control spell, simply by checking how it worked before and how other control spells work today.
Yes, I agree, against multiple weaker opponents it's as ineffective as other lower level control spells.
That's not my point. My point is that, within control spells, it is broken. Even Hypnotic Pattern, which is a 3rd level spell, "returns" the turn of the creature when it's hurt. Like Sleep. Like Tasha's will probably do with WIS ST's with advantage.
And it's just a 1st level spell. That's my point. I'm not saying it's a "win every fight" cannon, I'm saying it is the BEST control spell before you have 5th spell slots. Against one powerful creature? Better than any other options. Against multiple smaller creatures? Also better than any other control spells.
Thanks for the reply!
No heat needed, for sure. We're just discussing an insignificant part of our hobby.
And yeah, mate, Hypnotic Pattern is a strong spell - which consumes a 3rd level slot - and still doesn't allow a creature to get hit constantly without fighting back.
Hold Person, on the other hand, which does that, consumes a lower spell slot and only works on humanoids. Strong? Yes. Specific? Yes.
Now, before PC's get to level 5, Command will be preventing single enemy encounters from actually being scary or dangerous, even if the creature is more difficult than what the party should be encountering. Sleep doesn't do that. Tasha's doesn't do that. Hold Person doesn't do that. All of them have specifics with really strong downsides and/or requirements. None of them work as a Jack of All Trades spell.
I would go as far as saying that Command is the only spell lower than 3rd level that has a great potential of making few-enemy encounters a super easy walkthrough.
My examples were all around one big scary Hill Giant. But make it two. Make it three Beholder Zombies. Would you cast Hypnotic Pattern on them, or would you upcast Command on the 3 of them, so even the one that is hit doesn't have a chance to fight back?
Still, Tasha's Hideous Laugher is an early concentration spell that can take out several turns for a single spell slot. While definitely not as good as Command, it has a niche of being more cost effective, even if you only get 2 rounds out of it, that’s still better action economy wise compared to Command (concentration is definitely a majority weakness though).
I can’t understand how Command is better than Hypnotic pattern, it’s a 3rd level spell that can target far more than a 9th level Command ever could and can last a minute. Here’s the thing with that spell and “returning” the creatures turn. If 2/3 monsters get affected by it, the remaining enemy has a choice: Attack the party or spend its whole action to wake one of its buddies up.
If it does the first option, then 2 of its allies lose all their turns as long as they aren’t damaged/woken up or the caster loses concentration. If it does the second option, two enemies waste their turns regardless.
Theres another factor, what if the party has a higher initiative? If that’s the case, the party can just focus fire on the unaffected enemies and kill them before they can do anything. If all the remaining enemies are affected, the party can literally kill them one by one.
Before the PC's get to level 5, they'll have at most 7 spell slots per caster per day. If you're not teeing up enough encounters to get them to steadily burn those off, that's on you. And, as has been pointed out to you, you're treating Command like it's a sure thing. It ain't. Save or suck is really really flaky in tier 1. With 16 in a casting stat and +2 prof, that's a DC of 13. Meaning it's slightly less than even odds a straight dice roll stops it. Let's look at some other classic tier 1 CR enemies: there's the Bandit Captain, the Bearded Devil, a Blue Dragon Wyrmling, Cultist Fanatic, Ghast. A nice selection of classic enemy types, just from the first two pages of CR 1-3 from the current MM, all with enough WIS save to make Command a coin toss. There's certainly the "potential" for a solo encounter of one of these to be a cakewalk, but only if the dice gods favor you.
Spelljammer has the most exceptional example of Wis saves. A Revenant is also CR 5 and has a +6 Will Save. The point is more that the average encounter will probably be more of a +1 Wis save, not a -1.
Also, "I didn't pick the Hill Giant because it's a favorable enemy to prove my point. ... I've picked it because it's a really common example of a 3~10 CR monster that is very vulnerable to Control Spells." Is somewhat contradictory. Sure, there may be a difference in intent, but the end result is the same.
It is more severe to lose your turn and have the prone condition as opposed to just losing your turn, provided that your party can capitalize on it. In 5.14, you received languages from your species, from your background, and sometimes from your class/subclass. In addition, officially, you could spend time between adventures learning additional languages or tool proficiencies. Didn't you ever play in a group that diversified their starting languages and taught them to each other? Language was not that prominent a barrier as you make it out to be. In addition, it just means that a powerful spell was consistently powerful until you ran into something that was immune. That was less problematic for Wizards, but for casters that "knew" spells, that was a design issue. Making the spell behave consistently makes it as reliable for any class, not just the ones that can swap it out when they know they are primarily facing humanoids.
A spell that over performs in certain settings and is near useless in others is poorly designed. Toning down the capabilities, making the adjudication more consistent, and having the spell be more consistently applicable are improvements on the 2014 spell.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter. You are stuck on single target encounters. In both cases, if you don't attack the target, they lose their next turn and you can focus on other enemies or otherwise prepare.
With Command you have to still worry about reactions. With Tasha's Hideous Laughter, you don't.
With Command the target can continue concentrating on effects. With Tasha's Hideous Laughter, they can't.
With Command you have to cast the spell again to potentially lock them down for another turn. With Tasha's Hideous Laughter, they save against the same casting and if they pass, you can choose to cast it again on your turn (meaning that they have to pass the save twice to act on their next turn).
For just taking an enemy out of a fight, Tasha's Hideous Laughter beats out Command every time. For giving your party a few free swings, Tasha's is as effective, but the target will likely regain their turn.
Also, let's say a Sorcerer takes Magic Initiate for Tasha's and Heightens it, which saving throws have Disadvantage?
Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a control spell of level 1 that scales the same way Command does to boot.
If you have multiple enemies, a common scenario, cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter on one or so and focus on the rest. If you are dealing with a Boss fight scenario, secondary enemies can still be present, but you can also use Tasha's for initial positioning since you shut down reactions. Again, because it shuts down reactions, you can use it for escapes. In a big field, opportunity attacks can be avoided, but you are not always dealing with open spaces or opponents without reach.
In addition, even at CR 5, some creatures have unpleasant Reactions. A Tanarukk (Another -1 Will save enemy) can make an attack with advantage if hit by a melee attack. Command can't stop that at all. Tasha's can, but probably only for the first attack.
Command is a first level spell that provides a single turn of a control effect. It compares favorably in certain capacities with other control spells but is never broadly more advantageous and sacrifices the potential for sustained effects. Sleep has targets that are immune, but it is an AoE at first level. Until you start upcasting it, Command and Tasha's only affect single targets.
It's as powerful as Tasha's and Sleep (until we start upcasting). Noone is saying it's a bad spell. It's a good spell. It's not as strong as the 2014 version and it's not broken.
Thanks for reading and thanks for the responses.
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My houserulings.
Yes, Tasha's weaker, but has a niche that makes it useful - not that much more useful than Command, but useful. Same thing applies to Hold Person or Sleep. Still, in average, Command blows them to space. Which is why I label it as over-powered. Even considering niche situations, it still could be better than the other spells. A regular "power level" spell would certainly always lose to it's niche counterpart, which is not guaranteed in this case.
Regarding Hypnotic Pattern, I think that it's max control capacity would be something ridiculous like 80 medium-sized creatures. We can't argue that Command is infinetely less impactful than that. But let's face it, that's an extremely unlikely scenario to unfold.
If that spell is aiming at 3 or 4 creatures instead, I'd rather go with command, since 1 creature with multiattack of 2 could easily wake up two of it's allies by causing them unarmed strike damage, which would be 1 + STR modifier, which I think is a pretty good trade off for recovering their turn.
We could get into a multitude of scenarios where we could prove to each other that one or the other spell is stronger at each one of them. But should we be dicussing this when comparing two control spells, one of 1st level and another of 3rd level? If we're discussing it, there's either something wrong with Command or with Hypnotic Pattern, no?
Initiative-wise, yeah, there are several scenarios where you could bomb the creatures that failed the save before they can do anything, or even if the order is Control Mage > Monsters > Other PC's, the downside of Sleep, Tasha's or Hypnotic Pattern would be avoided. But I don't think we should consider this when discussing if a spell is overpowered or not.
While Command isn't broken or anything like that, it is one of the most powerful level 1 spells in the game.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter is great in tier 1, but once you hit level 5, you'll have better things to concentrate on, making Command the superior choice.
Regarding the 2014 version, I'd say the updated version is slightly stronger (due to removed restrictions) and a lot better designed. With the old version, too much was up to the DM and the usefulness of the spell depended on the player's language proficiency rather than character abilities. Not to mention the fact that what is a single word in one language can require multiple words in another.
Again, I'm not saying that Command or any other control spells work like a cannon that solves any encounters or situations. If that was the case, I would have opened a thread saying that control spells are overpowered. The "coin toss" thinking will be true for any control spells, not only Command.
I'm just saying that if you have X spell slots and you're not level 5 yet, Command will probably be your best choice regardless of the situation if you're aiming to control the battlefield. Because, again, Sleep and Tasha's will wake up the monster. Sleep might not even work with the monster, just like Hold Person. And even if you're level 5 and you have Hypnotic Pattern, still Command could be more useful depending on the situation.
Which, for me, labels it as overpowered. If the 1st level spell is better than the other 1st level spells, better than 2nd level spells and sometimes better than 3rd level spells, if it's not overpowered, what is it?
Well, it isn't broken - although still powerful - at higher levels, but at lower levels it is, since it would be counter-productive to pick Tasha's, Sleep or Hold Person if you can pick Command instead. And if you do pick Command, you're basically covered, you don't need the other lvl 1 control spells.
So yeah... Not a big issue when the party hits the fan, level-wise speaking. But until the party does, it is quite broken.
Forcing an enemy to skip a turn is the most powerful thing in the game. When you do that without any restrictions, you turn combat easy.
If someone as a DM has to flood the party with smaller encounters so that they arrive in the last fight completely naked, and dependent on cantrips and regular attacks, then, my dudes, I will consider myself wrong, because with that line of thinking, there will never be anything overpowered in the game. After all, if someone has a spell that kills everything on sight, why would we discuss it being overpowered if the DM should force the PC to spend it before the big bad boss combat?
I think that, in a general way, most of the amazing people that joined this discussion interpreted
as
When the real point is
Peace!
I threw 9 kobolds and a Young Blue Dragon at my party once, a simple Hypnotic Pattern and it turned from a 4v10 to a 4v1 with the paladin and barbarian in from of the dragon's face. This taught me a valuable lesson of not expecting the first encounter to ever be hard. Could the command spell have worked? Maybe, but definitely would have burnt like 2 3rd level versions that were less potent than the spell that was used.
I apologize then it seemed to me you were arguing for it being better than 5e I'm sorry for being rude to you
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Hiya! You can call me Link. Here’s a bit about me:
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Is e e eirmseachd nas fhaide na tomhas an ulaidh as motha a th’ aig duine!I think Command is definitely the most overpowered 1st level spell. Suggestion or Hold Person for 2nd, and Haste or Hypnotic Pattern for 3rd.
Hiya! You can call me Link. Here’s a bit about me:
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. Dubbed The Fluffy Bowman by Golden. He/They
Theatre Kid, Ravenclaw, bookworm, DM, Lego fanatic, flautist, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love Korean Mythology. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
Is e e eirmseachd nas fhaide na tomhas an ulaidh as motha a th’ aig duine!Nah... Best 1st level Control spell, maybe. Most OP 1st level spell, absolutely not. Silvery Bards is right up there, and Shield's a close second.
Suggestion is worse than Hideous Laughter in combat, Hold Person is basically restricted to campaigns where you only interact with Humanoids, otherwise you'll never use it.
Hypnotic Pattern is OP in video games, maybe. In tabletop, all it takes is 1 unaffected enemy to wake up 1 of them, which will then wake up the next one, and so on.
And Haste straight up sucks in 5.5e. If you're a pure spellcaster, you can't even use your extra Action to cast a Cantrip. It can be good depending on your party composition, but it's rarely a good idea to cast it on yourself.
In my experience, even if they all wake one another up, it’s still an action being wasted for each of them. It’s definitely stronger the higher the initiative of the party is, since it can allow your martials and Gish builds to clean the suddenly weaker encounter up.
Hypnotic Pattern is a strong spell, but not a broken one, since it doesn't work on creatures immune to Charmed, and since it's quite easy to "wake up" the affected creatures.
Haste is good for buffing allies. Hold Person? You kidding me? It’s like the only spell that causes paralysis, and it’s affective on 40 or so percent of enemies you come across. And at 2nd level? It’s op! I agree with you about Silvery Barbs and Shield, though. I’ve used suggestion in combat before to wicked effect.
Hiya! You can call me Link. Here’s a bit about me:
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. Dubbed The Fluffy Bowman by Golden. He/They
Theatre Kid, Ravenclaw, bookworm, DM, Lego fanatic, flautist, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love Korean Mythology. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
Is e e eirmseachd nas fhaide na tomhas an ulaidh as motha a th’ aig duine!