a creature's Passive Perception is only available during the creature's actions?

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues>>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues>>

Having passive Perception only give a mild “ping” substantially defeats the point of it. Given that it is roughly even with a PC’s average roll, all making them roll for it after does is produce a chance for them to blow the roll even with favorable odds, creating a frustrating experience for the player(s) and providing no meaningful interaction. Either use it as a straight Perception check when you feel it’s applicable or don’t, but the only changes making it a two-step process does is potentially pull the rug from players who invested in Perception by giving them room to fail and basically negate PP having any value during initiative.

If the roll matters, Passive Perception shouldn't bypass it. If the roll doesn't matter, you shouldn't require a roll.

Passive Perception shouldn't defeat the point of the active roll.

So when should it be used, under this paradigm? If the roll wouldn't matter, then presumably the thing should be something the DM will simply describe as part of the scene. The entire point of passive Perception is to allow for the DM to allow someone with good Perception to detect something that would otherwise go unseen without calling for a roll.

And hidden things require an active search in the correct area. Nonobvious details, that are not hidden, can still be perceived.

Can you give some explanation of what exactly would qualify as "not hidden, but meaningfully nonobvious"? This seems like a really fine semantic hair to try and split. Like, if you're just trying to make the point that it isn't an constant Perception check on everything, I've repeatedly acknowledged that is indeed what would be expected. First you said it's a question of "what matters" and now it's "hidden vs nonobvious"; I'm not tracking what kind of hard definition you think is in play here.

Alright, if passive perception is always on, then it shouldn't be the average value of an active Search Action Perception Check. You're not actively looking in this situation. This reflects what you catch out of the side of your eye. It's like your "Background Perception"

https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/homebrew-house-rules/239742-average-perception-background-perception-search

Average Perception roll is 10+perception modifiers

Background perception is normally AveragePerception with a -5 for disadvantage since you're not actively looking, its a background glance, 

And since quite a few things add disadvantage to perception checks, such as dim light (or darkness with darkvision) and other issues, adding disadvantage for background checks shouldn't make things worse for many situations. And if you want to cancel that disadvantage and be really good at background perception, then pick up a Sentinel Shield. It gives advantage on perception checks, which cancel out all the disadvantages, and you're left with background perception equal to Average Perception value.

Thinking about it now, I think it would be great if this is the default, creatures Background perception is normally AveragePerception with a -5 for disadvantage , and the base martial classes (fighter, monk, rogue, ranger) get a class feature at level 5 that says their Background perception is straight AveragePerception with no disadvantage. THen if these builds got a sentinel shield or something, they'd have a Background Perception equal to AveragePerception with +5 for advantage.

In addition, all creatures can take the SearchAction as a BonusAction.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Can you give some explanation of what exactly would qualify as "not hidden, but meaningfully nonobvious"? This seems like a really fine semantic hair to try and split. Like, if you're just trying to make the point that it isn't an constant Perception check on everything, I've repeatedly acknowledged that is indeed what would be expected. First you said it's a question of "what matters" and now it's "hidden vs nonobvious"; I'm not tracking what kind of hard definition you think is in play here.

Don't misrepresent the conversation. I have consistently said that finding a hidden object or creature requires an active perception check, not a passive one. Passive perception would notice could notice a sound or movement indicating that a creature was present. It could represent spotting scuffs or broken vegetation indicating that perhaps someone came through or hid something in the vicinity. Passive Perception gets you searching the right area.

It can also be noticing a small object, like a coin, gem, flask, or weapon off to the side. It can represent noticing a tiny creature that is not hidden (partially hidden is not hidden).

You complain that it is unfair to have someone "notice" something and then spend an action to search because it can be below average, wasting an action. So what? Spend another action and roll again.

If Passive Perception is your always on Perception, then every Perception check below 10 should be considered a 10.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Can you give some explanation of what exactly would qualify as "not hidden, but meaningfully nonobvious"? This seems like a really fine semantic hair to try and split. Like, if you're just trying to make the point that it isn't an constant Perception check on everything, I've repeatedly acknowledged that is indeed what would be expected. First you said it's a question of "what matters" and now it's "hidden vs nonobvious"; I'm not tracking what kind of hard definition you think is in play here.

Don't misrepresent the conversation. I have consistently said that finding a hidden object or creature requires an active perception check, not a passive one. Passive perception would notice could notice a sound or movement indicating that a creature was present. It could represent spotting scuffs or broken vegetation indicating that perhaps someone came through or hid something in the vicinity. Passive Perception gets you searching the right area.

It can also be noticing a small object, like a coin, gem, flask, or weapon off to the side. It can represent noticing a tiny creature that is not hidden (partially hidden is not hidden).

You complain that it is unfair to have someone "notice" something and then spend an action to search because it can be below average, wasting an action. So what? Spend another action and roll again.

If Passive Perception is your always on Perception, then every Perception check below 10 should be considered a 10.

Except, as I've pointed out, all using Passive Perception to give a ping that characters need to make an active check does is potentially undercut the character after you've already established that they ought to be able to notice whatever's pinging. And roll spamming isn't an answer because it defeats the point of rolling the first place if the players can just brute force their way to success like that.

I've repeatedly said it's not an always on Perception, just that if/when you're going to use it don't waste everyone's time throwing up extra hoops that will either give an identical result or make the initial success feel pointless.

The Dungeon Master Guide offer guidance how to use Passive Perception and when to call for a check.

Passive Perception is a score that reflects a general awareness of your surroundings when you’re not actively looking for something. It effectively can be used to perceive if as DM i choose so.

Perception

As the DM, you're the interface between your players and the world of the game. You tell them what their characters perceive, so it's important to make sure you're telling them important information about their surroundings. The Perception skill and Wisdom checks made using it are key tools for you. This section offers guidance to help you use the Perception rules in the Player's Handbook.

When to Call for a Check

An important time to call for a Wisdom (Perception) check is when another creature is using the Stealth skill to hide. Noticing a hidden creature is never trivially easy or automatically impossible, so characters can always try Wisdom (Perception) checks to do so.

Using Passive Perception. Sometimes, asking players to make Wisdom (Perception) checks for their characters tips them off that there's something they should be searching for, giving them a clue you'd rather they didn't have. In those circumstances, use characters' Passive Perception scores instead.

Using the Investigation Skill. The Investigation skill applies to situations where a character is using reason and deduction to arrive at a conclusion about something under examination. Investigation applies when characters are trying to figure out how a thing works—how to open a trick door, how to get into a secret compartment, and so on.

Don't use the Investigation skill to determine if a character notices something—that's the purview of Perception. For example, a successful Wisdom (Perception) check  allows a character to find a secret door or something that betrays its presence, such as thin seams marking the edges of the door. If the secret door is locked, a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check would allow a character to figure out the trick to opening it—by turning a nearby statue so it faces the door, for example.

"using Passive Perception to give a ping that characters need to make an active check"

Wait a sec. What?

As a dm, if the party is not searching, you look at passive perception compared to the hidden doors dc and if passive>dc, you ask players to make a perception roll?

If their passive is greater than secret door dc, i have players auto-detect the door, even though theyre not looking.

Though i think if theyre not searching, their passive shouldnt be their average active search.  But whatever passive score is, if its greater than the hidden thing's perceptiin dc, the players automatically see it.

"it's not an always on Perception,"

It == passive perception?

If pasive perception isnt always on, but it isnt only on during the percieving creatures turn, when is it on?

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

If pasive perception isnt always on, but it isnt only on during the percieving creatures turn, when is it on?

Passive score has never been super well defined -- in some cases it's treated as equivalent to take 10 from 3.x, in other cases it's treated as a target number.