Wish and the Ring of Spell Storing

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

"If a a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 8 slot, that Magic Missile is level 8. And then wish can duplicate it, RAW."

Thats not what the rules say.

"When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting."

That doesnt apply to Wish.

If you want to cast Conjure Minor Elementals this badly, play a wizard or druid and there you are.

The entire spell list is split up between different classes so that no single class gets access to every spell. If you want eldritch blast, you have to take a level of warlock. Conjure Minor Elementals is available to wizards and druids.

If you use Wish to cast any level 8 spell or lower, you dont use a slot to cast the lower level.spell, so you cant upcast it.

It is really not about Conjure Minor Elementals, it is about logic, and what to me is a very, very clear text. Happy to create a new topic if that is the problem. 

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. 

Obviously it is just for that casting, as normally the spell is level 1. 

But the point is that upcasted spells are always higher level spells and under all aspects, RAW, and without exception or ambiguity. So much that it is stated in the following line of the same text.

For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. 

It is not just a level 1 spells casted using a level 2 slot, it is a level 2 spell.

So a wish is able to duplicate it.  

More then the text itself supporting it, and the writer of the text reiterating it on the side, I do not know what else should be added to make it clearer, a signed letter from Elminster?

To be clear, no one is saying that a spell cast using a higher-level spell slot doesn't count as a higher-level spell.

The point is that when you are duplicating a spell using Wish or Limited Wish, that spell is not being cast with a higher-level spell slot, so none of the effects of casting it with a higher-level spell slot apply.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

To be clear, no one is saying that a spell cast using a higher-level spell slot doesn't count as a higher-level spell.

The point is that when you are duplicating a spell using Wish or Limited Wish, that spell is not being cast with a higher-level spell slot, so none of the effects of casting it with a higher-level spell slot apply.

 Ok :)

The point I am trying to make is centered about this logical step.

1. IF a upcasted spell is a higher level spell ( a magic missile upcasted at level 8 is a level 8 spell)

2. AND The basic use of Wish is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower

3. THEN a wish can duplicate it. 

1 and 2 are RAW so 3 sounds perfectly logical to me. 

The fact that a lower level spell becomes higher level for the time that is upcasted, does not change that it is 100% a higher spell, so the magic of wish should have the potential to duplicate it effortlessly.

Wish doesn't say

"duplicate the base version of a spell."

"duplicate a spell as if cast without a spell slot."

"duplicate a spell at its lowest level."

It simply says "any other spell of level 8 or lower."

Saying "Wish doesn't use a higher-level slot." doesn't refute my argument, because I am not claiming Wish provides the slot. I am claiming the spell being duplicated is already an 8th-level spell.

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

To be clear, no one is saying that a spell cast using a higher-level spell slot doesn't count as a higher-level spell.

The point is that when you are duplicating a spell using Wish or Limited Wish, that spell is not being cast with a higher-level spell slot, so none of the effects of casting it with a higher-level spell slot apply.

 Ok :)

The point I am trying to make is centered about this logical step.

1. IF a upcasted spell is a higher level spell ( a magic missile upcasted at level 8 is a level 8 spell)

2. AND The basic use of Wish is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower

3. THEN a wish can duplicate it. 

1 and 2 are RAW so 3 sounds perfectly logical to me. 

 By the text of the rules, it's correct -- wish is casting without using a spell slot, and the rules say that you don't get to upcast.

This is mostly because the typical cast-without-slot abilities are nothing like wish. They made the rules for the general case, and wish happens to be a poor fit.

There's no fundamental reason why it's a bad idea for a DM to allow wish to upcast -- AFAIK, every upcast spell is inferior to comprable higher level spells. They likely just didn't think of it, or didn't think explicitly allowing it was worth the verbiage.

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

To be clear, no one is saying that a spell cast using a higher-level spell slot doesn't count as a higher-level spell.

The point is that when you are duplicating a spell using Wish or Limited Wish, that spell is not being cast with a higher-level spell slot, so none of the effects of casting it with a higher-level spell slot apply.

 Ok :)

The point I am trying to make is centered about this logical step.

Yes, I understand your position perfectly well. It is a perfectly reasonable house rule, but it's incorrect according to the official rules.

Sorry I updated my previous message right where you where replying.

This issue is a matter of  potentiality versus actuality.

THEORY A (Actuality):

• An upcast Magic Missile is an 8th-level spell only once the act of casting with an 8th-level slot has happened.
• Wish never performs that act.
• Therefore Wish never reaches the state where the spell becomes 8th level. In other words: Magic Missile isn't inherently an 8th-level spell. It only becomes one if a higher-level slot is actually used.

THEORY B (Potentiality) [my position] is:

• The PHB tells us that once cast with an 8th-level slot, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting.
• Therefore an 8th-level Magic Missile is a valid magical entity that exists within the rules.
• Wish doesn't need to recreate the process that made it 8th level; it merely duplicates that already-defined spell entity by spending a level 9 slot.

but it's incorrect according to the official rules.

could you please point me to the official rule saying this? I think there is ambiguity at least, as both reasoning are supported by the rules. But of these 2 views, we know that my theory is what the writer Jermey C intended, because he said so himself. 

We have plenty of evidence from monster writeups that it's possible to upcast a spell without using a spell slot, because you have things like "Shatter (level 3 version)" on the ancient blue dragon.

Or a wand of magic missiles. 

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

but it's incorrect according to the official rules.

could you please point me to the official rule saying this? I think there is ambiguity at least.

I've already laid out how the rules work in this thread; I don't really think there's much value in me saying it all again.

I see what you mean but I agree we disagree. I do not think the rules you mentioned make one theory the clear winner. 

When you duplicate the effect of a spell using Wish, you are not casting that duplicated spell, so the rule that you can't upcast a spell when not using a spell slot doesn't apply. Wish allows you to duplicate the effect of any spell of level 8, without any restrictions whatsoever. Literally anything in the game that constitutes a level 8 spell can be obtained with Wish.
That's what the spell does. That's what it's for.
Tsunami without being a Druid? It's a level 8 spell, so you can.
Level 8 Conjure Celestial without being a Cleric? It's a level 8 spell, so you can.
Level 8 CME? It's a level 8 spell, so you can.
Simulacrum without the casting time, the ruby powder... well, you get the idea.
As long as what you're trying to duplicate is the effect of a level 8 spell, it doesn't matter how that spell is normally obtained: you can. Nothing else matters.
Wish makes this pretty explicit in its wording: "the spell just takes effect". It's meant to be a "beats everything" spell.

Quote from Natrel >>

When you duplicate the effect of a spell using Wish, you are not casting that duplicated spell, so the rule that you can't upcast a spell when not using a spell slot doesn't apply. Wish allows you to duplicate the effect of any spell of level 8, without any restrictions whatsoever. Literally anything in the game that constitutes a level 8 spell can be obtained with Wish.
That's what the spell does. That's what it's for.
Tsunami without being a Druid? It's a level 8 spell, so you can.
Level 8 Conjure Celestial without being a Cleric? It's a level 8 spell, so you can.
Level 8 CME? It's a level 8 spell, so you can.
Simulacrum without the casting time, the ruby powder... well, you get the idea.
As long as what you're trying to duplicate is the effect of a level 8 spell, it doesn't matter how that spell is normally obtained: you can. Nothing else matters.
Wish makes this pretty explicit in its wording: "the spell just takes effect". It's meant to be a "beats everything" spell.

 Precisely. It is about potential. You are not casting Conjure Celestial , you are casting Wish, a level 9 spell and the mightiest spell a mortal can cast, that in that case happens to produce an effect identical to Conjure Celestial. 

"Wish doesn't say"

You cant interpret the rules using the logic "anything not specifically prohibited is allowed"

There is nothing in the rules that allow wish to up cast chromatic orb as a level 8 spell, therefore you cant.

Your only argument hinges on the idea that if you cast wish using a level 9 spell slot, that slot counts for upcasting. 

So you would agree casting Wish using a ring or a scroll would NOT allow upcasting?

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

We have plenty of evidence from monster writeups that it's possible to upcast a spell without using a spell slot, because you have things like "Shatter (level 3 version)" on the ancient blue dragon.

Monsters dont have to follow ANY of the rules that players have to follow. 

If a monster can do it, thats no evidence for a player being able to do it

The question, of course, is whether Conjure Celestial (8th level version) is a distinct spell that can be replicated, or whether only the base version can be replicated.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

There is nothing in the rules that allow wish to up cast chromatic orb as a level 8 spell, therefore you cant.

 
Again, Wish does not upcast anything, or cast anything, for that matter. It duplicates an effect, without casting anything other than the Wish spell itself.
It's not a question about the "anything not specifically prohibited is allowed" logic. The Wish spell does explicitly allow this.

"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower."
A level 8 Chromatic Orb is a "spell of level 8 or lower", therefore it satisfies the condition explicitly stated by the description of the Wish spell.
It does allow it explicitly, therefore you can get a level 8 Chromatic Orb with Wish.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

The question, of course, is whether Conjure Celestial (8th level version) is a distinct spell that can be replicated, or whether only the base version can be replicated.

 
I'm surprised that this would even be in question... It's already established RAW that a spell upcast to level N constitutes a level N spell. And that's the only condition that Wish gives. It's the only thing you have to satisfy.

"It's already established RAW that a spell upcast to level N constitutes a level N spell."

No. This is absolutrly wrong. Fireball is always a level 3 spell.

If you use an 8th level slot to cast it, its a level 3 spell upcast to level 8.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

"It's already established RAW that a spell upcast to level N constitutes a level N spell."

No. This is absolutrly wrong. Fireball is always a level 3 spell.

If you use an 8th level slot to cast it, its a level 3 spell upcast to level 8.

 The rules disagree with you.

 PHB 2024

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

That entire paragraph reads like it was written by an intern who majored in interpretive dance.

Effectively???? Thats saying theyre and an awful lot like the same thing, from a functional point of view, but legally theyre different.

Takes on???? What in the 9 lives does that even mean???

No. Spell level and spell slot level are different concepts. This has to be one of the dumbest bits of pseudo-legalese in the books, and Ive read the nonsense for the rules to hide dozens of times.