Wish and the Ring of Spell Storing

Is it possible to use Wish to cast Conjure Minor Elementals (upcasted to level 5) into a Ring of Spell Storing? Or it counts as a level 9 spell no matter what?

Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality itself.

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower. If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.

RING OF SPELL STORING: This ring stores spells cast into it, holding them until the attuned wearer uses them. The ring can store up to 5 levels worth of spells at a time. When found, it contains 1d6 − 1 levels of stored spells chosen by the DM.

Any creature can cast a spell of level 1 through 5 into the ring by touching the ring as the spell is cast. The spell has no effect other than to be stored in the ring. If the ring can’t hold the spell, the spell is expended without effect. The level of the slot used to cast the spell determines how much space it uses.

While wearing this ring, you can cast any spell stored in it. The spell uses the slot level, spell save DC, spell attack bonus, and spellcasting ability of the original caster but is otherwise treated as if you cast the spell. The spell cast from the ring is no longer stored in it, freeing up space.

How about if you use the Genie Warlock subclass feature Limited Wish?

Limited Wish

You entreat your patron to grant you a small wish.

As an action, you can speak your desire to your Genie's Vessel, requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action. The spell can be from any class's spell list, and you don't need to meet the requirements in that spell, including costly components: the spell simply takes effect as part of this action.

Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish 1d4 long rests.

It says that the spell "simply takes effect" but does it count as it having been cast?

Both Wish and Limited Wish are duplicating the effect of another spell, but not actually casting it. Technically, a Ring of Spell Storing requires you to actually cast the spell.

That said, some DMs might well allow it, and even if they didn't it could certainly fall under the "reshape reality" usage of Wish, with all the downsides that entails.

But why would you want to do that instead of just casting Conjure Minor Elementals into the item directly?

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

But why would you want to do that instead of just casting Conjure Minor Elementals into the item directly?

 Because it's not in the warlock spell list :)

Seem like a pretty cool spell to me. Upcasted it goes amazing with Eldritch Blast.

Why wouldn't limited wish allow upcasting?

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Seem like a pretty cool spell to me. Upcasted it goes amazing with Eldritch Blast.

Why wouldn't limited wish allow upcasting?

Because you're not using a spell slot. Spells like Conjure Minor Elementals that have upcasting benefits say something like this:

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 4.

If you are not using a spell slot at all, you're not "using a higher-level spell slot" and there is no "spell slot level above 4".

Wish would cause a lot fewer problems if it had an expensive consumed material component (such as a ring), because at that point my response would be "sure, whatever".

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Wish would cause a lot fewer problems if it had an expensive consumed material component (such as a ring), because at that point my response would be "sure, whatever".

I'm generally willing to allow a lot of shenanigans with off-label uses of Wish provided the player's willing to accept everything in that "Reshape Reality" paragraph in the spell description, i.e., there will be significant consequences to messing with reality like this and you won't immediately know what they are.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

I'm generally willing to allow a lot of shenanigans with off-label uses of Wish provided the player's willing to accept everything in that "Reshape Reality" paragraph in the spell description, i.e., there will be significant consequences to messing with reality like this and you won't immediately know what they are.

Yeah, but people generally want to accomplish this by something that doesn't run the risk of never being able to cast wish again.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Seem like a pretty cool spell to me. Upcasted it goes amazing with Eldritch Blast.

Why wouldn't limited wish allow upcasting?

Because you're not using a spell slot. Spells like Conjure Minor Elementals that have upcasting benefits say something like this:

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 4.

If you are not using a spell slot at all, you're not "using a higher-level spell slot" and there is no "spell slot level above 4".

 

 Ok but wish says

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower.

A spell you duplicate with wish can be cast at a higher level, as long as that level is no higher than 8th. 

#DnD https://t.co/lLK6VOmzlF

— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) November 16, 2017

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Seem like a pretty cool spell to me. Upcasted it goes amazing with Eldritch Blast.

Why wouldn't limited wish allow upcasting?

Because you're not using a spell slot. Spells like Conjure Minor Elementals that have upcasting benefits say something like this:

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 4.

If you are not using a spell slot at all, you're not "using a higher-level spell slot" and there is no "spell slot level above 4".

 

 Ok but wish says

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower.

 

A spell you duplicate with wish can be cast at a higher level, as long as that level is no higher than 8th. 

#DnD https://t.co/lLK6VOmzlF

— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) November 16, 2017

 

That advice isn't directly supported by the rules. Additionally, unless it got printed into official Sage Advice, it's just his word, not official. JC's been known to get things wrong in those posts on numerous occasions before.

Quote from Athanar90 >>

That advice isn't directly supported by the rules. Additionally, unless it got printed into official Sage Advice, it's just his word, not official. JC's been known to get things wrong in those posts on numerous occasions before.

Also people on the forum have gotten things wrong on numerous occasions, but that does not automatically disqualify all they say.

No I don't think the rules offer any clarity at all in this case and Until the Sage Advice clarify, I'd rather stick to the writer of the PHB 2024 manual and creator of the game point of view, personally. 

For the same reason, do you think a Tasha's Hideous Laughter  spell upcasted to level 8 would count as a level 8 level spell or level 1 spell when you cast Dispel Magic to auto-dispell it? 

Because if upcasted spells remain of their original level, then Dispel Magic automatically would end that upcasted Hideous Laughter.

Moreover, please refer to PHB 2024, Chapter 7, Spells:

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

Some spells, such as Magic Missile and Cure Wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell’s description.

And look, if you choose to rule so at your table it is totally ok, but I don't think that is the intended goal at all.. same thing for the spell emulation feature of wish. It is a 9th level spell and it makes sense that it would emulate spells with the potency of a spell of this strength.

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

For the same reason, do you think a Tasha's Hideous Laughter  spell upcasted to level 8 would count as a level 8 level spell or level 1 spell when you cast Dispel Magic to auto-dispell it? 

Because if upcasted spells remain of their original level, then Dispel Magic automatically would end that upcasted Hideous Laughter.

A spell upcast to level 8 counts as a level 8 spell for that purpose, but that fact does not make it possible to upcast a spell without using a spell slot.

The general rule is that the only way to get those "using a higher-level spell slot" benefits is to use a higher-level spell slot. It's possible for a more specific rule to explicitly override that, but nothing in Wish does so.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

For the same reason, do you think a Tasha's Hideous Laughter  spell upcasted to level 8 would count as a level 8 level spell or level 1 spell when you cast Dispel Magic to auto-dispell it? 

Because if upcasted spells remain of their original level, then Dispel Magic automatically would end that upcasted Hideous Laughter.

A spell upcast to level 8 counts as a level 8 spell for that purpose, but that fact does not make it possible to upcast a spell without using a spell slot.

The general rule is that the only way to get those "using a higher-level spell slot" benefits is to use a higher-level spell slot. It's possible for a more specific rule to explicitly override that, but nothing in Wish does so.

 Sorry but why selectively just for that purpose?

The 2024 rules says clearly

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

This is a clear, general rule. There is no set of specific cases or set of circumstances where this only applies. It is just that.

It does not say " for the purpose of evaluating dispel magic" or anything like that.

If a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2.

Wish says 

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower. 

If a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 8 slot, that Magic Missile is level 8. And then wish,  which can duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower, can duplicate it, RAW. Same applies if you cast it from a scroll or a ring of course. 

If a Sage Advice had changed or updated the "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot" section I would understand, but as far as I know that general rule still stands and it is clear as rain, and is consistent with Jeremy C tweet as well, who wrote the text. 

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

"If a a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 8 slot, that Magic Missile is level 8. And then wish can duplicate it, RAW."

Thats not what the rules say.

"When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting."

That doesnt apply to Wish.

If you want to cast Conjure Minor Elementals this badly, play a wizard or druid and there you are.

The entire spell list is split up between different classes so that no single class gets access to every spell. If you want eldritch blast, you have to take a level of warlock. Conjure Minor Elementals is available to wizards and druids.

If you use Wish to cast any level 8 spell or lower, you dont use a slot to cast the lower level.spell, so you cant upcast it.

It is really not about Conjure Minor Elementals, it is about logic, and what to me is a very, very clear text. Happy to create a new topic if that is the problem. 

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. 

Obviously it is just for that casting, as normally the spell is level 1. 

But the point is that upcasted spells are always higher level spells and under all aspects, RAW, and without exception or ambiguity. So much that it is stated in the following line of the same text.

For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. 

It is not just a level 1 spells casted using a level 2 slot, it is a level 2 spell.

So a wish is able to duplicate it.  

More then the text itself supporting it, and the writer of the text reiterating it on the side, I do not know what else should be added to make it clearer, a signed letter from Elminster?

To be clear, no one is saying that a spell cast using a higher-level spell slot doesn't count as a higher-level spell.

The point is that when you are duplicating a spell using Wish or Limited Wish, that spell is not being cast with a higher-level spell slot, so none of the effects of casting it with a higher-level spell slot apply.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

To be clear, no one is saying that a spell cast using a higher-level spell slot doesn't count as a higher-level spell.

The point is that when you are duplicating a spell using Wish or Limited Wish, that spell is not being cast with a higher-level spell slot, so none of the effects of casting it with a higher-level spell slot apply.

 Ok :)

The point I am trying to make is centered about this logical step.

1. IF a upcasted spell is a higher level spell ( a magic missile upcasted at level 8 is a level 8 spell)

2. AND The basic use of Wish is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower

3. THEN a wish can duplicate it. 

1 and 2 are RAW so 3 sounds perfectly logical to me. 

The fact that a lower level spell becomes higher level for the time that is upcasted, does not change that it is 100% a higher spell, so the magic of wish should have the potential to duplicate it effortlessly.

Wish doesn't say

"duplicate the base version of a spell."

"duplicate a spell as if cast without a spell slot."

"duplicate a spell at its lowest level."

It simply says "any other spell of level 8 or lower."

Saying "Wish doesn't use a higher-level slot." doesn't refute my argument, because I am not claiming Wish provides the slot. I am claiming the spell being duplicated is already an 8th-level spell.

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

To be clear, no one is saying that a spell cast using a higher-level spell slot doesn't count as a higher-level spell.

The point is that when you are duplicating a spell using Wish or Limited Wish, that spell is not being cast with a higher-level spell slot, so none of the effects of casting it with a higher-level spell slot apply.

 Ok :)

The point I am trying to make is centered about this logical step.

1. IF a upcasted spell is a higher level spell ( a magic missile upcasted at level 8 is a level 8 spell)

2. AND The basic use of Wish is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower

3. THEN a wish can duplicate it. 

1 and 2 are RAW so 3 sounds perfectly logical to me. 

 By the text of the rules, it's correct -- wish is casting without using a spell slot, and the rules say that you don't get to upcast.

This is mostly because the typical cast-without-slot abilities are nothing like wish. They made the rules for the general case, and wish happens to be a poor fit.

There's no fundamental reason why it's a bad idea for a DM to allow wish to upcast -- AFAIK, every upcast spell is inferior to comprable higher level spells. They likely just didn't think of it, or didn't think explicitly allowing it was worth the verbiage.

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

To be clear, no one is saying that a spell cast using a higher-level spell slot doesn't count as a higher-level spell.

The point is that when you are duplicating a spell using Wish or Limited Wish, that spell is not being cast with a higher-level spell slot, so none of the effects of casting it with a higher-level spell slot apply.

 Ok :)

The point I am trying to make is centered about this logical step.

Yes, I understand your position perfectly well. It is a perfectly reasonable house rule, but it's incorrect according to the official rules.

Sorry I updated my previous message right where you where replying.

This issue is a matter of  potentiality versus actuality.

THEORY A (Actuality):

• An upcast Magic Missile is an 8th-level spell only once the act of casting with an 8th-level slot has happened.
• Wish never performs that act.
• Therefore Wish never reaches the state where the spell becomes 8th level. In other words: Magic Missile isn't inherently an 8th-level spell. It only becomes one if a higher-level slot is actually used.

THEORY B (Potentiality) [my position] is:

• The PHB tells us that once cast with an 8th-level slot, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting.
• Therefore an 8th-level Magic Missile is a valid magical entity that exists within the rules.
• Wish doesn't need to recreate the process that made it 8th level; it merely duplicates that already-defined spell entity by spending a level 9 slot.

but it's incorrect according to the official rules.

could you please point me to the official rule saying this? I think there is ambiguity at least, as both reasoning are supported by the rules. But of these 2 views, we know that my theory is what the writer Jermey C intended, because he said so himself.