Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Thank you for this info!
Just to understand your point... even if the specific spell was already on your class spell list?
It's a slightly different take from mine, but yours is even simpler to adjudicate, sure.
It's more that they aren't added to the spellcaster class list in my take, which would match the precedent set by Fey, Shadow, and Vampire Touched at least.
What I understood then :) Thanks for your time!
The problem is the adept feats also don't do the other thing either, which is tell you to choose a spellcasting stat for them. We're literally into houserule territory just to figure out how you cast the spells.
That's why my interpretation is a guess at how it was meant to be written and it's likely missing a line, rather than saying this is RAW.
There is a difference in that Fey- and Shadow-Touched can also be taken by non-spellcasters.
Since it requires a spellcasting feature, I would imagine it should work like one of these:
(A) Choose one of your classes which has a spellcasting or pact magic feature. Add these spells to that class's spell list.
(B) Choose one of your classes which has a spellcasting or pact magic feature. You cast these spells as if using that feature.
The thing about B is its kind of awkward language, and assumes WotC is actively considering the difference between the spell being cast with a feature and being added to the spell list that is accessed by that feature, which... I am unconvinced. (Nor am I convinced there's actually a practical difference between A and B, since casting a spell as if you were using a feature should qualify you for anything which asks if the spell belongs to that list anyway, i think? That's just unnecessary ambiguity).
I don't think it'll be 'choose a stat' like Fey-Touched, because having a spellcasting feature is already a prerequisite, and it doesn't give you any free casts that would require a separately defined casting attribute. But we'll see what the errata brings...
The two examples I have seen discussed most often are:
1. Lessons of the First Ones → Magic Initiate
Lessons of the First Ones is an Eldritch Invocation, and therefore clearly a Warlock feature. It grants an Origin feat. If the Warlock chooses Magic Initiate, that feat then grants spells, including a 1st-level spell that is always prepared.
Pact Magic says:
The disagreement seems to be whether this chain:
Warlock feature → feat → always-prepared spell
means that the Warlock feature has “given” you the spell, or whether the feat is considered an independent source and therefore breaks the chain.
2. Ability Score Improvement → spell-granting feat
A similar question arises with the Warlock’s Ability Score Improvement feature at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16.
ASI is listed as a Warlock class feature that gives you a feat, but feats themselves are described as features not tied to a particular class.
So if a Warlock uses their level 8 ASI to take a feat that grants always-prepared spells, does the same reasoning apply?
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This has become MUCH more important with the new Adept feats from Arcana Unleashed.
For example, suppose a Warlock takes Evocation Adept.
The prerequisite for the Adept feats can be met by having either the Spellcasting feature or the Pact Magic feature. In other words, a single-class Warlock with only Pact Magic is explicitly allowed to take the feat.
Evocation Adept then grants always-prepared Evocation spells such as Chromatic Orb, Shatter, Fireball, Vitriolic Sphere, and others as the character gains access to the appropriate spell-slot levels.
That seems to create an important rules problem if the feat’s spells do not count as Warlock spells.
Pact Magic says that its spell slots are used to cast your Warlock spells. If you have both Pact Magic and the Spellcasting feature, you can use Pact Magic spell slots to cast spells you have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting feature. £vocation Adept spells are granted by a feat, however, not by a class with the spellcasting feature.
So under the non-transitive interpretation, you could theoretically have this situation:
Pact Magic qualifies you for Evocation Adept → Evocation Adept gives you Fireball → Fireball is not a Warlock spell → your Pact Magic slots cannot cast Fireball.
That would mean a pure Warlock can legally take a feat because Pact Magic satisfies its prerequisite, gain an always-prepared spell from that feat, and then potentially be unable to cast that spell using the very Pact Magic slots that qualified them for the feat.
That seems like a much more significant consequence than the older Magic Initiate question.
It also affects other Warlock-specific interactions.
For example, Rod of the Pact Keeper improves the spell attack rolls and saving throw DCs of your Warlock spells. If Evocation Adept’s spells are not Warlock spells, the Rod would not improve Fireball, Vitriolic Sphere, Chromatic Orb, etc.
Likewise, any other feature or magic item that specifically refers to a “Warlock spell” would presumably ignore them.
So there seem to be two possible readings:
A. Non-transitive reading
The Warlock feature gives you a feat.
The feat gives you the spell.
Therefore the spell was not given by a Warlock feature and does not become a Warlock spell.
Under this reading:
Warlock ASI → Evocation Adept → Fireball ≠ Warlock spell
and presumably:
Lessons of the First Ones → Magic Initiate → spell ≠ Warlock spell
B. Causal reading
The Warlock feature gives you the feat, and that feat gives you an always-prepared spell. Therefore the spell was ultimately given to you by a Warlock feature and satisfies the Pact Magic wording.
Under this reading:
Warlock ASI → Evocation Adept → Fireball = Warlock spell
and:
Lessons of the First Ones → Magic Initiate → spell = Warlock spell
There may also be an argument for treating the two differently: Lessons of the First Ones is a uniquely Warlock-specific Eldritch Invocation whose entire effect is to grant a feat, whereas Ability Score Improvement is a generic class advancement feature shared by many classes.
However, I am not sure whether there is any actual rule that establishes such a distinction.
So my questions are:
Is there an official rule, Sage Advice answer, or other wording establishing that “gives you” in the Pact Magic feature must mean directly gives you, rather than allowing a class feature → feat → spell chain?
Do spells gained through Lessons of the First Ones → Magic Initiate count as Warlock spells?
Do spells gained through Warlock ASI → Evocation Adept count as Warlock spells?
If the answer to #3 is no, how is a single-class Warlock who qualifies for Evocation Adept solely through Pact Magic intended to cast the spells granted by the feat using their Pact Magic slots?
Would Rod of the Pact Keeper and other effects that specifically apply to Warlock spells therefore not apply to those Adept spells?
I am especially interested in the RAW interaction with the new Adept feats, because their explicit acceptance of Pact Magic as a sufficient prerequisite makes the consequences of the non-transitive reading much more significant.
As I understand it, ASI feats explicitly do not count as class features.
However, Invocations are definitely class features, so I'd think any feat you'd gain from Lessons of the First Ones was 'gained from a class feature', and thus make the resulting magic initiate spells warlock spells in that case.
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The Adept feats problem is that it doesn't tell you how you cast them at all, so you have to houserule something for anyone to cast them. Something as simple as 'choose one of int/wis/cha. That's you're casting attribute for these spells. They can be cast with any spell slots you have.' would give you a way to cast them.
Can I ask where does it say explicitely that ASI are not class features ? :)
It is correct that the 2024 Feats chapter explicitly says feats are special features “not tied to a character class.” But the Ability Score Improvement feature absolutely is a Warlock class feature. The Warlock rules place it in the “Warlock Class Features” table and then say at level 4 that the feature grants you the ASI feat or another feat of your choice; it repeats at Warlock 8, 12, and 16.
Also under feats the PHB says:
Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify.
Moreover even if the adept feat told us how you cast them, if those spells are not Warlock Spells, a Warlock RAW can not cast them with their Pact Slots and it is SO silly :D
Well, as to the latter, if it said you can use your slots to cast them, you can use your slots to cast them. Similarly, the multiclass rules let a Warlock/Sorceror use their Pact Magic slots to cast Sorceror spells.
I feel like you have thought too deeply about this and are now searching for a logical through-line which doesn't exist.
I don't think there has been complete and unequivocal advice given on what is a prepared Warlock spell in every single case.
I don't think that the intent of the text is to convert all spells granted by feats into Warlock spells. Some will be, but not because a feat is inherently a Warlock class feature.
Magic Initiate feats are probably not. They most likely remain Wizard/Cleric/Druid spells which use a specified casting stat. (It wouldn't be unbalanced to allow them to be considered other class spells though, if the stat aligns.)
The new Arcane Adept feat spells probably are Warlock spells because otherwise they have no method of being cast at all. The spells are always prepared, but as what? The simplest answer is that when you are determining the list of prepared spells you have for each class then these spells just appear on that list, and become a spell of that class. They can then be cast the same as any other spell you have prepared for that class.
This is where my interpretation for multiclass characters derives its restrictions: when you determine if the spells are prepared as each class you consider only the spell slot levels you have for that class at that moment. A multiclass character might have a level 3 slot, but if the fireball spell cannot be prepared on any of their class lists then it cannot be cast. As soon as their Warlock class gains level 3 slots then fireball is immediately always prepared as a spell for that class and can be cast using any available slots.
"Pact Magic" says that its spell slots are used to cast your Warlock spells.
On top of that If you have both Pact Magic and the Spellcasting feature, you can use Pact Magic spell slots to cast spells you have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting feature. Evocation Adept spells are granted by a feat, however, not by a class with the spellcasting feature. They are not sorcerer spells for instance if you are a Sorlock.
Ultimately I just think they really need to drop a Sage Advice for this :D
If the model text is as per Fey-Touched, ie, "You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level." then you could also cast them with pact magic slots.
I mean, as they're currently worded, they don't need a Sage Advice, they need errata, because RAW nobody can cast them.
Not saying you have to agree with this at all, but I left this information on page#1:
Tbh, not only should adept feats be clarified, but I at least would like to see a better answer about what counts as a class spell, probably reviewing those two answers in SAC about it.
Also, I always remember this explanation from Athanar90 when talking about "chain" + "feats":