Battle Familiar and Pact of the Chain

Quote from TeiranDragon >>

Quote from Actionsparda >>

Well this figures. I just made a post debating on whether or not going straight to third level for Battle Familiar was worth it for my Warlock as opposed to starting off Fighter. It sounds like as long as I have Pact of the Chain I’m doing better damage than I would with Battle Familiar. 

 

I mean, it depends heavily on what type of warlock you are as well. A duel wielding, heavy armor wearing Pact of the Blade lock who can give up their weakest attack every turn for a bonus hit from Battle Familiar is very different than a Blaster back line guy who wants the familair to use their reaction to boost their AC via Warlike Familiar. 

But there's a lot of synergy from the new Familiar feats that gives options for turning  the Pact of the Chain familiars into a proper menace. 

 Hu. I never thought of that. Still, I’m not a huge fan of dual-wielding due to how many feats are involved. I’m not sure I have the extra eldritch invocations to run warlike familiar either. I’m kind of locked in to war caster and asi’s in a sword and board build, which is a shame because I was interested in evocation adept with a Vestige patreon war cleric spelllist but might have to settle for War Caster and Light in a more gish sort of build.

Anyway, I think I’ll still take Battle Familiar if I purchase Arcana Unleashed or find a campaign that has it. What it lacks in damage it makes up for as a meat shield, right? 

That's the thing... if you're using a pet to replace the attack, you don't Need any feats to make dual wielding good. You only need the weapon master for a Nick and Light weapon.

Who cares if you can't add your stat to an attack and damage roll you are giving up for the familiar attack?

Quote from TeiranDragon >>

That's the thing... if you're using a pet to replace the attack, you don't Need any feats to make dual wielding good. You only need the weapon master for a Nick and Light weapon.

Who cares if you can't add your stat to an attack and damage roll you are giving up for the familiar attack?

 Hmmn… i get it now, but I hate to give up the extra AC from the shield. Plus, do I really want to be there being attacked up-close when my familiar could be taking the damage instead? Lastly, I just got a mini of said character using a shield and rapier and would like to use it accurately. Neat idea though!

RAW - I am pretty sure that if you attack with a light weapon with nick mastery you get an additional attack during your attack action that you can use with a different light weapon (or can give up to allow POC familiar to attack once).

You do not need to be dual wielding to do this and could be holding a shield in your off hand. Theoretically, you could weapon juggle but I don't think you even need to possess that second light weapon if you will always give up that attack to let your familiar attack.

Quote from StonyMac >>

RAW - I am pretty sure that if you attack with a light weapon with nick mastery you get an additional attack during your attack action that you can use with a different light weapon (or can give up to allow POC familiar to attack once).

You do not need to be dual wielding to do this and could be holding a shield in your off hand. Theoretically, you could weapon juggle but I don't think you even need to possess that second light weapon if you will always give up that attack to let your familiar attack.

 Oh wow! I mean, that sounds right on paper for sure. Perhaps I should be using a scimitar instead of a rapier’s vex? At least until level 5 when i can take Investment of the Chain Master. I could even use the shield with it! Just start off with a scimitar and then either buy or conjure via Pact of the Blade a Rapier!

I’m gonna do some experimenting. Thanks!

Quote from Actionsparda >>

Quote from StonyMac >>

RAW - I am pretty sure that if you attack with a light weapon with nick mastery you get an additional attack during your attack action that you can use with a different light weapon (or can give up to allow POC familiar to attack once).

You do not need to be dual wielding to do this and could be holding a shield in your off hand. Theoretically, you could weapon juggle but I don't think you even need to possess that second light weapon if you will always give up that attack to let your familiar attack.

 Oh wow! I mean, that sounds right on paper for sure. Perhaps I should be using a scimitar instead of a rapier’s vex? At least until level 5 when i can take Investment of the Chain Master. I could even use the shield with it! Just start off with a scimitar and then either buy or conjure via Pact of the Blade a Rapier!

I’m gonna do some experimenting. Thanks!

You do need a route to get that nick weapon mastery. Worst case if your DM does not allow it without a second light weapon you could have a dagger in your belt that you can theoretically draw and throw as that 2nd attack (and just never do that).

Weapon Juggling:
You attack with Scimitar (and sheath it as part of attack).
You draw and throw a dagger (2nd light attack that you forgo to allow Familiar to attack).
Free Action: You draw your Scimitar (to be ready for reaction attacks).

Sorry to interrupt (good reading and conversation!), but I'd like to share this information/advice I posted in Vestige Patron Warlock Semblance of Life and multiattack:

Quote from Tarod_ >>

I just wanted to add that "Nick Attack convert to an attack from the familiar" might not be allowed by some DMs.

I mean, it has been debated in the past whether, if you don't actually make the extra attack granted by the Light property (modified by Nick, in this case), that attack is not available to be replaced:

- Questions regarding Shillelagh, War Magic, True Strike and Extra attacks
- Eldritch Knight / Valor Bard + Nick mastery

The context was replacing a cantrip with War Magic or the Valor Bard's Extra Attack, but I think some similarities can still be found in this case.

So IMO, this is an "ask your DM" thing.

Also, regarding two-weapon fighting while using a shield, there are some threads about it. Not all DMs allow it, but it seems legit RAW:

- Interaction between NICK and Extra attack
- Two-Weapon Fighting with a Shield
- Shields, Dual Wielding, drawing and sheathing and the free object interaction
- question about light weapon (dnd2024) 

It also very much depends on how many attacks you get.  Pact of the blade warlocks with a second attack thanks to the lvl 5 evocation can make attacks with both weapons, then use the bonus Light/Nick attack with the familiar. 

That setup is Way less likely to get smacked down by the DM than somebody weapon juggling to also have a shield, unless you are actually throwing your weapons like a jugglar. 

Maybe your DM will follow the rule of cool and allow you to 'dual wield' returning light hammers that you constantly throw at people from the back line from behind your shield as the familiar harries your opponents down range, but I think you are way more likely to have success adhering to not just the RAW but also the RAI for duel weilding. 

Duel wielding scimitars in the front line alongside your battle cat Familiar will play nicely both rules wise, and as a character at the table. 

Hey, if you've got the mini already, stick to the shield and rapier! Stand alongside your family, and let them Help you while using their reaction to power the Warlike Familiar AC boost. (Something an invisible imp can do without breaking stealth even. And that they could do for Any party member as well, not just you.)

You'll have a much higher AC with the pet and that shield, they can grant you advantage, assuming you need it after hitting with the rapier, and you'll be splitting damage between you. Save up for the smiting evocation and you're golden. 

If they try to attack the familiar, "oh no! My infinitely resummonable pet got hit, not me! Oh well." Heck, take the False life evocation too. You'd be a reliable damage sponge like that, capable of blocking a lot of damage for your party and throwing down some hefty spells when needed.

I’’m having trouble with what eldritch evocations to pick already, but I appreciate the suggestions and the encouragement!