Dimension Door Issue

Quote from sevidz >>

What about vision rule?

You've already asked this question and been told the answer.

A specific rule beats a general rule. The vision rule is a general rule.  Dimension Door contains specific text which indicates you do not need vision of the destination. That is more specific than the general vision rule, so it overrules it.

Quote from sevidz >>

We cannot ignore rules already defined for total cover to use a spell. 

" A target has total cover in D&D , meaning it cannot be targeted directly by an attack or a spell "

If something is obscured from vision you do not have clear line of sight.

If he wishes to target a location he cannot see, the rule for total cover needs to have a clear reason to bypass it. 

Imagining things, estimating things is at best unclear since he was not familiar with this base, he never entered it before, he has no idea what was behind that wall. 
So he used the players vision to conclude that, the PC on the other hand would not guess a location to save his life. 

 The target of Dimension Door is the caster.  He always has line of effect to himself.  The destination is not a target, just the effect.  (Unless the spell specifically says otherwise, targets are either creatures or objects, not empty space.  Fireball targets creatures and unattended objects in its area, not the area itself).

Dimension door lets you literally say "300' straight down", and if that's not a valid destination, you just take damage and the spell fails.  But if it is a valid location, it takes you 300' straight down, even if there's 290' of rock between the two locations.

Also, i think you expect too much from spell descriptions on exceptions to line of sight or effect.  If the spell description even suggests it ignores line of effect or line of sight, then it does.  For example, Raulothim's Psychic Lance ignores both line of sight and line of effect if you name the target, so long as they're in range.  For example: If you cast a Fireball through a 2" slit into a room, while the origin point of the fireball is something you can see, all creatures and unattended objects within 20' of that origin point, even ones you can't see, are targets of the spell, despite the caster not having line of sight to them.  (Area of Effect spells have an exception baked right into them - you measure line of effect from the origin of the area, not the caster).

Quote from sevidz >>

What about vision rule?

 If vision rules applied to this spell, do you really think the spell would say that it ignores them? Per the spell: "You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as “200 feet straight downward” or “300 feet upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle.”

Quote from sevidz >>

Classic Crawford, stating what he meant, not what he wrote.

It's also what he wrote though

You're free to rule however you want at your table, of course, but Dimension Door, both by RAW and by RAI, allows you to teleport to a location behind total cover

While the intent is clearly that dimension door lets you bypass cover, as written it doesn't contain any such exemption. Other teleportation spells, such as misty step and teleport and teleportation circle and plane shift, have a target of the creature to be teleported, and thus the total cover rule does not apply to the destination, as it is not the target of the spell. Dimension door should have a target of self, or self plus one creature within 5' (and total cover should apply to that 5' range).

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

While the intent is clearly that dimension door lets you bypass cover, as written it doesn't contain any such exemption.

Sure it does

I agree that the Range should match other teleports, but that doesn't change the fact that "you arrive at exactly the spot desired", and that spot can be one you describe by direction and distance and does not have to be a spot you have line of sight to, creates a very obvious exception to the total cover rules

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

While the intent is clearly that dimension door lets you bypass cover, as written it doesn't contain any such exemption. Other teleportation spells, such as misty step and teleport and teleportation circle and plane shift, have a target of the creature to be teleported, and thus the total cover rule does not apply to the destination, as it is not the target of the spell. Dimension door should have a target of self, or self plus one creature within 5' (and total cover should apply to that 5' range).

While I was flabbergasted to find that DD didn't have a range of self, I don't think it needs to matter in this case.

Targets:
A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else.

The spell DD does not specify what the target actually is, so we have to infer it. Even a spell like Aid doesn't actually specify the target(s) (by saying something like "choose up to 3 creatures to be the target of this spell's effect"), but makes it abundantly clear in context. For DD, I think it's best to put it in the context of other teleport spells, which would make the caster (and potential willing creature within 5') the target(s) of the spell.

So, if that's the case, what is it doing with a Range that is not "self" like the others? Harder to answer, but I suppose that it's so things like the Distant Spell metamagic work on it. By saying "You teleport to a location within range," you now tie the maximum distance that you can teleport to something that is malleable instead of the static 30' for misty step, for example.

I can concede that there is a (weak) case to be made for the destination to be the actual target of the spell, but I think it falls flat under closer scrutiny as the only thing pointing to it being the case is the spell having a non-self "Range" statistic. Everything else about the spell (especially the specific language of choosing a destination simply by direction and distance) points to the target being the caster and, regardless, allowing you to (attempt to) teleport to a space that you cannot see because specific beats general.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

I agree that the Range should match other teleports, but that doesn't change the fact that "you arrive at exactly the spot desired", and that spot can be one you describe by direction and distance and does not have to be a spot you have line of sight to, creates a very obvious exception to the total cover rules

No it doesn't. It just means the spell isn't limited to locations you can see (which is different from, say, misty step).

Quote from sabin76 >>

The spell DD does not specify what the target actually is, so we have to infer it.

 Given the range of 500', it has to be the location you are teleporting to. Many spells target a location.

The spell is just incorrectly written. It should have a range of 5' (like teleport has a range of 10') and limit it to 500' distance in the text.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

I agree that the Range should match other teleports, but that doesn't change the fact that "you arrive at exactly the spot desired", and that spot can be one you describe by direction and distance and does not have to be a spot you have line of sight to, creates a very obvious exception to the total cover rules

No it doesn't. It just means the spell isn't limited to locations you can see (which is different from, say, misty step).

Nah. Your interpretation here is simply incorrect, in multiple ways that have already been spelled out in the thread and aren't worth rehashing. The third clause in dimension door isn't simply a way to get around darkness, which seems to be about the only use case you think it applies to

This seems really open and shut:

You teleport to a location within range. You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as “200 feet straight downward” or “300 feet upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle.”

 

The spell explicitly states you do not need to be able to see the destination, which means it overrides the clear path to target rule.

This is actually called out in the rules glossary for Teleportation

The description of a teleportation effect tells you if you must see the teleportation’s destination

Also that rule doesn't apply because the destination you're teleporting to isn't a target of the spell, you (and the creature you may choose to teleport) are. Under Targets:

A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else.

The spell specifies that it targets you and optionally one other creature, but it doesn't say it targets your destination.

I didn't try for them to waste their spell slot and give them damage. Where did I say that? 
I told him if he does that he will receive damage, so to prevent that I recommended another angle. 

The teleport rule is also defined with familiarity, has nothing to do with vision, it is a long distance spell. 

Quote from sevidz >>

I didn't try for them to waste their spell slot and give them damage. Where did I say that? 
I told him if he does that he will receive damage, so to prevent that I recommended another angle. 

 You take damage with Dimension Door If you would arrive in a space completely filled, which to my understand wasn't the case as your player character was trying to teleport a few feet behind a building corner in an empty space not occupied isn't it?

Quote from zastrixarundell >>

The argument was that I could describe the end position by seeing the corner of the building (the top-left corner of the gray block) and going a few feet behind it.

Quote from sevidz >>

I didn't try for them to waste their spell slot and give them damage. Where did I say that? 
I told him if he does that he will receive damage, so to prevent that I recommended another angle. 

 In addition to the fact that, as explained above, it allows for unseen targets, consider this:

If dimension door were limited to locations you could see, why would it even have the "take damage if the space is occupied" part?

For comparison, misty step explicitly requires sight, and has no mechanics for the space being occupied.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from sevidz >>

I didn't try for them to waste their spell slot and give them damage. Where did I say that? 
I told him if he does that he will receive damage, so to prevent that I recommended another angle. 

 In addition to the fact that, as explained above, it allows for unseen targets, consider this:

If dimension door were limited to locations you could see, why would it even have the "take damage if the space is occupied" part?

For comparison, misty step explicitly requires sight, and has no mechanics for the space being occupied.

 It's also worth pointing out that misty step requires line of sight, but not line of effect (to the destination, because it's not a target).  ie, you can misty step through a window, or around a corner with a mirror.  Sight (and an open space) are the only requirements.

Quote from Davyd >>

This seems really open and shut:

You teleport to a location within range. You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as “200 feet straight downward” or “300 feet upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle.”

 

The spell explicitly states you do not need to be able to see the destination, which means it overrides the clear path to target rule.

This is actually called out in the rules glossary for Teleportation

The description of a teleportation effect tells you if you must see the teleportation’s destination

Also that rule doesn't apply because the destination you're teleporting to isn't a target of the spell, you (and the creature you may choose to teleport) are. Under Targets:

A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else.

The spell specifies that it targets you and optionally one other creature, but it doesn't say it targets your destination.

 IMO, this answer and other answers where Range is explained (for example #16 or #19) are key.

Range doesn't define the targets. It means "how far from the spellcaster the spell’s effect can originate, and the spell’s description specifies which part of the effect is limited by the range". So in this case, the maximum distance for the destination and its effect (the teleport) is 500 ft.

The targets are the creatures affected by the spell's Effect, and you can't tell what the spell really targets reading only its Range. In this case you're the target, and maybe also the willing creature, as Davyd said.

The same goes for the Teleport spell, where you and up to eight willing creatures that you can see within range (10 ft.) are the targets.

EDIT: for clarity.

While I don't think the rules question is open and shut, I do think it's pretty pointless, as there's no reason to think dimension door is supposed to care about obstacles; it certainly didn't do so in previous editions, so the only real question is "are the rules poorly written".

If we assume that the range and the targeting are unrelated, it has only two effects that I can think of, both related to the Distant Spell metamagic:

• As written, distant spell allows moving 501-1000', but does not allow you to carry someone along who is more than 5' but less than 10' away.
• If it was written as "range 5'" (the way teleport is written as ranged) and listed the 500' in the body of the spell, it would not allow teleporting more than 500', but would allow bringing along a willing creature that is within 10'

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

While I don't think the rules question is open and shut, I do think it's pretty pointless, as there's no reason to think dimension door is supposed to care about obstacles; it certainly didn't do so in previous editions, so the only real question is "are the rules poorly written".

If we assume that the range and the targeting are unrelated, it has only two effects that I can think of, both related to the Distant Spell metamagic:

• As written, distant spell allows moving 501-1000', but does not allow you to carry someone along who is more than 5' but less than 10' away.
• If it was written as "range 5'" (the way teleport is written as ranged) and listed the 500' in the body of the spell, it would not allow teleporting more than 500', but would allow bringing along a willing creature that is within 10'

Since I'm wearing my editing cap right now anyway... they should really just ditch the "5 feet" restriction for the buddy you can take with you, and make it a willing creature you are touching. If you've got some way to touch a creature more than 5 feet away from you, by being a plasmoid or whatever, more power to you

Leave the 5 feet limit on the destination end, though

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

If it's of any interest to you, the Devs have confirmed it a number of times in the past on X;

@armando_doval So you can't Dimension Door behind total cover then?The spell doesn't say you can, and the spell's target is your destination.

@JeremyECrawford The first paragraph of dimension door is a long-winded exception to the general rule.

@armando_doval I believe the reasoning there is that Dimension Door is intended to ignore total cover. I believe the ruling I was thinking of at the time was related to Prismatic Wall's forbiddance on casting spells through it

@JeremyECrawford That's exactly right. Dimension door ignores total cover, like the cover created by a wall of force. The prismatic wall spell is a different animal, messing with spellcasting itself.

 There's another interesting conversation about teleport spells: Targeting spells/clear path, can I target across Wall of Force? This is only a snippet:

@JeremyECrawford With misty step, you must be able to see your destination, but you don't need a clear path there.
[...]
@Dan_Dillon_1 Right, but then this gets murky for things like Misty Step. Are teleports/scry inherently different than conjurations?
@JeremyECrawford You cast misty step on yourself; you are the target. The schools of magic have the same targeting rules.
@Dan_Dillon_1 Okay! So the things that teleport are the targets, not the destination. That helps clear it up.
@JeremyECrawford There is no general rule for who's targeted by a teleportation spell. Each spell says who its target is.

Jeremy Crawford is... reliably inconsistent. The answer to many D&D 5e rules oddities is "because the authors were bad at writing rules", and, well, JC bears a considerable part of that blame.

Well... for my part, I won't deny that many rules could have better wording, more detailed explanations, and as a personal Wish, examples.

And if it's not possible in the books, then at least in official DDB articles, even if it's just taking random community questions like this one and answering them.