Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Mostly, the point is that the rules contain pointless or incoherent statements, and thus a rule being pointless is not a RAW argument, it's a RAI argument.
I think that the actual RAI is
The mechanics of what it means to be hidden are explained here:
This is incorrect in a few ways.
1. The mechanical benefits of being hidden are actually explained within the rules for Unseen Attackers and Targets. See above.
2. Being hidden does not give you the Invisible condition at all.
3. The mechanical benefits of successfully concealing yourself, on the other hand, are explained within the text for the Hide action. These include having the Invisible condition, but only while you're hidden.
4. When you take the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. It's not an attempt to hide in and of itself. An indirect consequence of taking the Hide action is that you become hidden in that moment because being unseen and unheard is a requirement for successfully concealing yourself.
You are definitely on the right track here. All of this is correct. It's counterintuitive because for the hiding mechanics it works in the opposite direction than how invisibility usually works. In most cases, you are unseen because you are invisible. That's not true when you hide. When you hide, you are invisible because you are unseen. Even though that's already common sense, the errata text clarifies that anyway. It makes it extra clear that you only have the Invisible condition while you are hidden.
The conclusion, though, is not accurate. Hiding does not do nothing. In this game, by default, creatures are always making enough noise such that if enemies are close enough, they can be heard automatically. Now, to avoid this you might make an effort to become and remain unusually quiet. If the outcome of such an activity is uncertain, a DM will generally ask for a Stealth check to see how successful you are in being quiet enough to avoid automatic audible detection and audible passive perception. If you want to do this while behind things (out of sight), and you are willing to expend just a bit more effort (spending an action), then you can fully conceal yourself when successful. You can't really be hidden without having taken this action of concealing yourself because otherwise you would be either seen or heard. The mechanical benefits of being hidden are explained in the rules for Unseen Attackers and Targets. Therefore, the Hide action has value.
I agree that this detail needs to be rewritten. I think that it's obvious what the intention is there. To me, this is sort of on par with how the Invisible condition doesn't actually say that it makes it so that you can't be seen. We all know what it's supposed to mean to be actually invisible. So, these are both the sorts of writing errors that should be corrected with errata, and we should just rule on those details under the assumption that these will indeed eventually be corrected. When there's an actual error in the rules it becomes less valuable to try to stick with a RAW interpretation during actual play.
It's not pointless, especially if you can do it as a Bonus Action.
Defensively, when Heavily Obscured (such as when standing in ordinary darkness), an enemy can attack you with disadvantage. But if you are hidden then they do not know where you are -- so they must guess the square. In the case of Total Cover there is less of a difference in the moment.
Offensively, in the case of Total Cover and then switching to 3/4 Cover to make an attack . . . without hiding first this causes you to become seen and you lose your advantage. Even worse, if the enemy had a Readied action to attack you, his attack happens first. Instead, if you hide first, you are attacking from a hidden position (3/4 Cover), so your attack has advantage, and your location is given away only after that attack hits or misses. Also, if the enemy had a Readied action to attack you, your attack happens first because you are still hidden until after your attack resolves.
Gotcha. I don't think that I would categorize it quite like that, but I can understand the sentiment.
The important point is that the current state of that "condition" has nothing to do with the result of taking the Hide action. It's just a game state that is either currently true or it isn't and the text is making a check to see which one it is (true or not). The phrase "while hidden" just means "while your location is unknown because you are currently unseen and unheard". So, are you currently unseen and unheard? If yes, then you still have the Invisible condition, but that will depend a lot on where you are currently located. This state of currently being hidden was automatically indirectly true at the moment that you concealed yourself with the Hide action because concealing yourself has prerequisites that align with what it means to be hidden. In addition, on an ongoing basis you automatically remain stealthy (quiet). But if you also want to retain the benefits of concealing yourself on an ongoing basis, you must actually remain hidden (unseen and unheard), since you only have the Invisible condition while hidden.
Yeah it does. Being hidden is the result of taking the hide action, and causes you to be invisible while hidden. Everything else you describe is stuff you made up with no textual basis. Being unheard is presumably possible via the stealth but is not achievable by any specifically described effect in RAW (yeah, you lose hidden if you make a loud noise so it's likely that it's intended to cover silence, but as written it doesn't).
This is not the definition of Hidden, because (1) it doesn't say it is, (2) literally none of that requires you to be hidden, and (3) it isn't a definition at all. You can be unseen without being hidden (ie, you're in total cover or heavily obscured = unseen, no Hide Action necessary).
All it says is that a creature you can hear can be attacked directly (implying a creature you can neither hear nor see can not, and see below on being unable to hear a creature).
I should probably also note that making an attack could very well not make you heard, depending on how you made the attack. So clearly 'unseen and unheard' isn't enough to have your location be a secret, despite the implication to the contrary. (For example, a blowgun is basically silent, and several other things may well be depending on the range. A longbow is probably unheard to a target ~80' away, and someone casting Eldritch Blast from 90' away is certainly unheard to the target).
1/ No, the mechanical benefits of being "unseen" are described in that passage above, not "hidden". These are, coincidentally, basically the same benefits that Invisible gives. And so if you can't move out of the conditions that allow you to take the Hide Action (which require you to be unseen), there is no purpose to taking the Hide Action, because you are already unseen before you take it, by definition.
2/ "you have the Invisible condition while hidden." That's literally hidden giving you the invisible condition. If hidden doesn't give you the Invisible condition, it literally does nothing (as opposed to effectively doing nothing under your interpretation), because no other benefit is ever ascribed to it.
3+4/ This is nonsense that has no basis in the text.
As written, the Hide Action does nothing to stop you from making noise, because it never says it does. Now, to reduce rolls, I'd bet most people would let you move silently as part of a Hide Action (because there's no point in making two rolls), but it is technically not part of a Hide Action.
This is not to say that you cannot move silently with stealth, but rather, it is a separate use of stealth, probably as part of movement (since you're moving silently), although there's zero guidance on when or how you move silently in the rules, so DM discretion. And if the Hide Action is doing nothing, you should just move silently instead and potentially not need an action for it.
Being invisible doesn't do a thing for you if you're unseen, because unseen already does all the things being invisible does. So why would the rules need to say you're invisible, but only if you wasted an action on it? You already have all those benefits just from being unseen.
The mechanical benefits of being unseen are explained in unseen attackers. You don't have to be hidden to be unseen - indeed, you had to be unseen to take the Hide Action in the first place. And if you can't enter line of sight and stay hidden, then you are just as unseen whether you're hidden or not from those positions.
It is pointless, because the Hide Action gives you no benefit you don't already have from being unseen.
Moving silently while unseen would make them guess the square (while you're unseen). The Hide Action says nothing about moving silently. (see above on it being a separate use of the stealth skill).
You're breaking your own rule on needing to maintain the conditions to take the Hide Action to remain hidden, one of which is you are unseen in that cover/concealment. Since you must be unseen, the 3/4 cover must let you remain hidden, which means you'd be unseen in that 3/4 cover anyway. (I don't know what the designers were thinking here, and neither do you, but that you must be unseen is indisputably a prerequisite for taking the Hide Action.)
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The TLDR is, you can be unseen and unheard without taking the Hide Action, and the Hide Action never actually makes you unheard. Just move silently while unseen, which is probably part of movement rather than an action.
Text has been directly quoted all over the place.
Just as a reminder, the text does not say that. And that's incredibly important to this discussion since that's an assumption that is made often by a lot of people.
Nothing in there at all about attempting to become hidden or becoming hidden due to the successful action. Yes, I understand that the action happens be called "Hide" so it's tempting to assume that such an action results in being hidden. Such assumptions are not supported by the text.
The Hide action does not permanently "turn on" "hidden".
The Hide action provides an activity which takes less than 6 seconds to perform which, when successful, allows you to conceal yourself. After you've successfully concealed yourself, you can remain at that same level of stealth (which, by definition, is a skill that's used for moving quietly and hiding behind things) for the purposes of being found. Also, after you've successfully concealed yourself, a check is constantly being made to determine if you are currently hidden. If you are, then you have the Invisible condition. If you are not, then you do not have it.
All of that (but only that) is the result of taking the Hide action.
With that being said, it's clear that as a side effect of concealing yourself you will be hidden in that moment. Meaning, your current state at that moment matches how the concept of being hidden is described within the rules for Unseen Attackers and Targets. The implication from the text of the Hide action is that as soon as you are not hidden (your state at that future moment no longer matches what it means to be hidden), then you have basically used up the benefits of that concealment activity -- you lose the Invisible condition and your saved value of your Stealth check is no longer valid for the purposes of preventing an enemy from finding you. Presumably, to reacquire those benefits, you will have to conceal yourself again by taking another Hide action.
The main difference between simply being unseen, Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover and also being Hidden behind it is that your location is unknown. This is the main purpose for Hiding in the first place is that enemies are not aware of your presence and so you can ambush them.
At my table it's reflected by also having to target a square to attack a hidden creature instead which isn't the case when the target is not hidden.
Nothing says that being 'hidden' makes your position unknown.
It implies that if you're moving silently (can't hear you), your position is unknown. But nothing says a hidden creature is unheard, or that the Hide Action makes you unheard.
"Being stealthy" could mean a lot of things. (Moving silently is a stated use of the stealth skill, and thus 'being stealthy')
Huh. You do have a partial point. As written, the hide action does not grant you the hidden condition. However, this does not mean that 'Hidden' has some special meaning that you derived, it means that the Hide action does nothing whatsoever.
Being Stealthy involve using the Stealth skill but if you're moving silently, enemies can still see you and know your location, it's not what i would call " being stealthy"'. Being hidden and moving silently is two different thing.
If your location was known while hidden, why would the rules say "If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
How would you ambush anyone if enemies knew you were there?
Much like in 2014, the overall concept is split up across multiple chapters, and it takes a bit to put it all together. This is bad organization (though slightly better in 2024); they should have written a section that ties the below together:
In Chapter 1, the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" box basically covers (implies) that to have your position unknown, you need to be unseen and unheard. If you were magically invisible, they can target your location (with Disadvantage) if they can hear you.
Hiding makes you invisible (the "hidden" pseudo-condition is a wrapper around the Invisible Condition with extra ways to lose it).
Not moving from your hiding place, or moving silently (beat their Passive Perception) makes you unheard.
So if you are hidden and moving silently, your position is unknown.
If you were "just" behind cover and also moving silently (Stealth roll to beat Passive Perception) you would also get all the benefits (unknown position). Which is the best argument for what the Hide Action actually does (let you leave cover and maintain the "unseen" part if you also remain "unheard" and "unfound").
True, if they can see you. But if you are unseen (heavily obscured, behind total cover) and unheard (moving silently), then you are not hidden, but your position seems to be unknown according to the 'unseen attackers' sidebar, and you are 'being stealthy' (as you made a stealth check to move silently).
OTOH, hidden never says it makes you unheard, so there's no rules reason for it to make your position unknown. Your position being unknown requires you to be both unseen and unheard, not hidden.
The enemies don't know you're there because you are unseen and unheard. Not because you are hidden.
Because the rules are incompetently written? There's a fair amount of evidence that the intent of the rules is different from what the rules actually do, but the rules don't actually make your location unknown.
I mean, technically there's nothing to stop you from using the Hide action successfully while an enemy knows where you are.
Just to put it to the most absurd situation:
Imagine a vast, empty white room. Light coming from every surface. In the middle of this room is a single 5ft by 5ft section of wall. Your gnome character runs to the other side of the wall from the enemy, so you are behind total cover. You take your action to do the Hide action and roll a 16 total to beat the 15 DC.
Technically, according to all the rules, you now have the Invisible condition. You are "hidden" (whatever that means). However, realistically, the enemy absolutely knows your location. There's only one place you could be: behind that wall. So it is entirely possible to have your location known yet successfully Hide and have the Invisible Condition RAW.
But the rules Unseen Attacks & Targets doesn't say If you are stealthy when you make an attack roll, you give away your location... It says hidden.
When you say 'must' there are two different possible interpretations of that word.
The first possible interpretation is that moving out of 3/4 or Total Cover or Heavy Concealment absolutely cannot ever break the Hidden state. (i.e. a person must always be allowed to leave those forms of coverage without the loss of Hidden).
The second possible interpretation is that moving out of 3/4 or Total Cover or Heavy Concealment does not automatically void the Hidden state. (i.e. there must be the possibility that it can happen, but it is not guaranteed).
Claiming the first position means the following situation can occur:
A rogue in the middle of a wide open auditorium can hold up one end of a 3' wide roll of paper and allow the other end to drop to the floor (before the argument is raised, if the character holding the roll creates an issue then replace the rogue holding it with an Unseen Servant or Mage Hand, but the paper is still only about 2' in front of the character).
The rogue now has at least 3/4 cover from the people in front of them and successfully rolls Stealth, at which point they drop the top of the roll of paper.
Because moving from 3/4 Cover or Total Cover or Heavy Concealment cannot ever break the Hidden state the rogue remains unfound (barring a Perception roll) even though they now have absolutely no cover and have not moved from their initial spot.
Now, I recognize this is a very loaded setup. It is suppose to be. What I am trying to do is make sure I understand your position. Are you maintaining that in such a setup the rogue is not automatically revealed?
And for the record. I am not claiming that saying that the rogue remains hidden is an incorrect answer. It may feel like that because I am generating such an extreme situation, but the purpose of that isn't to pin you down into making a ridiculous statement or anything like that. I can absolutely see how a reasonable person can interpret the rules to allow that and I can see games in which the players and DM want that type of 'over the top' ability with skills (look at the 'Now You See Me' movies).
I am simply trying to make sure that I understand your position.
I think that's the textbook example of where you would run into "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."
Maybe if that otherwise-featureless room was filled with combatents in pitched combat...
But what happens when those circumstances change? Squirrel posited that using the same stealth roll for movement after was a way of simplifying the game, and I agree that if you do that, you should do it only with that intention. My point has always been that when the circumstances change (as determined by the DM), then the roll is no longer valid and should be redone. If the circumstances are such that the roll cannot be made, then Hide automatically fails and the Invisible condition drops.
Oh, yes. Absolutely agreed. My point was only that a strict RAW it would absolutely work, and that having the Invisible Condition based on passing a Hide (Action) check wouldn't automatically mean your location was unknown.
There's a lot about stealth, Hiding, etc that should be (and in my opinion IS) up to the DM to decide when it can occur and how it actually plays out, but some others argue that the DM should be completely separate from any of these decisions and the rules can be followed strictly without DM adjudication.
If being hidden doesn't make your location unknown what The Skulker feat Sniper feature does exactly?
In combat, I would try to limit a player (or myself) to only 1 Stealth check per round. And if I'm Hiding every round, I'd just use the Hide check as the "move silently" check every time, even if a bunch of people changed locations between my Hide and my moving. (It all comes out in the wash.)
(And really, in pitched combat, I might just rule/assume that there's enough noise and chaos that I don't need to care about enemies' Passive Perception. Maybe I care if I'm sneaking within 5ft of someone, for the backstab, but if Fireballs and Thunderclaps are going off, maybe not even then.)
Out of combat, maybe once per "potential encounter," which mostly works out to once per group of enemies that I'm trying to sneak past / spy on / ambush.