The Stormwind Fallacy is running rampant throughout this post. Roleplaying and min/maxing are not mutually exclusive activities. Roleplaying is not a high art theatrical performance, it's the act of stepping outside of yourself and making decisions as your character would make them. It's not doing voices. It's not talking with an NPC ad nausea.
When I read comments like this, I can see why newer players who are initially interested in the mechanical side of things are unable to grow as roleplayers - they're never given the opportunity to learn about the roleplaying side because some people immediately lump them into the "kids" group. Shaming people for wanting to do 100 damage in around is the same as shaming people who likes to do voices at the table or dress up or whatever helps them get in the mindset of their character.
I also see a lot of crapping on WoW. If you had an open mind and went and looked at some boss fights and dungeons, you would find a lot of great ideas for making interesting encounters with engaging features that can make memorable moments in the campaign.
I encourage min/maxing at the table, specifically for role-playing reasons. If I'm an adventurer who's been tasked with going on an epic quest to stop a big bad evil guy from destroying the world, I'll tell you what I'm going to do - I'm going to tell Steve the quirky, unperceptive rogue with low DEX, but a high level of spunk to sit tight at the tavern and continue complaining with the other regulars. Then I'm going to go meet up with three people who are real focused at what they do and who complement my strengths and weaknesses.
The four of us are going to set out on our quest. Along the way we're going to stop off at some towns and cities, make a few new friends, maybe make a few enemies, help some people out here and there, and get into some shenanigans. We'll learn new skills, use our brains and brawn to solve problems as needed, have some big laughs, shed some big tears, and have a grand time doing so.
Eventually, after all of the physical, mental, and personal growth we've experienced along the way, we're going to go stop that big bad evil guy in an epic showdown using our wits, talents, and the incredible abilities we've honed along the way. Then I'm going to go back to the tavern and tell Steve the quirky rogue all about my epic adventure, provided he's able to stop complaining long enough to listen.
I feel like you guys have never truly dealt with someone who literally chooses the most over powered options, all the time. So if you open up Race selection, he will chose to be an Aarakocra Ranger who shoots a bow, who can also throw a dagger (Or maybe carry 20 daggers so he can throw both at once) in his off hand, always fly above the battlefield, and hunts down every last feat from every last resource that he possibly can that will give him some randomness like +10 to attack for three attacks at first level.
Caves, forests, indoors, rain, enemy archers, Magic Missile, cover, cost of daggers, cost of arrows, high winds, storms, fog, other flying enemies, I could go on. Its trivial to reign in a character like that. Throwing daggers don't even offer anything to a bow user. But I digress, there really aren't that many resources to even look through. You have the PHB and DMG, SCAG and EE, and then UA. Planeshift if you truly want it. This isn't your grandpa's 3.5 with a million third party splat books. There just aren't that many ways to abuse the system without including your own homebrew or houserules (which to be fair, is a great way to break things in any system). Some of the most universally touted "builds" are purely from core and involve no multiclassing; like XBow Battlemaster, Onion Druid, Wizard, or Bard, so its not like someone can't completely overshadow and ruin the fun of a Wot4E Monk of PHB Ranger if you let them. But the answer isn't to just ban huge swaths of core rules, and I don't think anyone would advocate for it. 5e gives every DM plenty of tools to create a fun and engaging experience for all types of players.
And I subscribe to the notion that many players like to cover their deficiencies. All it takes is hitting some weaknesses to guide the growth of a character.
I feel like you guys have never truly dealt with someone who literally chooses the most over powered options, all the time. So if you open up Race selection, he will chose to be an Aarakocra Ranger who shoots a bow, who can also throw a dagger (Or maybe carry 20 daggers so he can throw both at once) in his off hand, always fly above the battlefield, and hunts down every last feat from every last resource that he possibly can that will give him some randomness like +10 to attack for three attacks at first level.
In my case, at least, your feeling is wrong. It is because I have experienced quite a few players just like you describe that I have found that just letting them do what they are doing and running the game just I would if the character weren't a minotaur fighter/barbarian with numerous prestige classes and feats scoured from the whole of the D&D 3.5 product line with custom-built magic items (that character in particular managed to take out a suped-up Tiamat in a single full-attack action) is the best thing to do - because, again, either they finally get the fun they were wanting to have, or they don't have fun and realize it is because of the way they built their character so they change how they build characters.
problem is min/max players build their cha like a PC game character (insert game) instead og a well rounded person with motivations and desires... and how can a paladin ever retain the power of a good aligned deity if he makes a pact with a devil? or orther evil entity. that is a purely mechanical thing that makes no sense for a person who truely believe in good and is devoted to a god... not good enough for you? well if your goal in life is to make money and be able to support yourself etc why not just sell some drugs or steal fo stuff? becuase you are a person who think its wrong and not the way to go about life (i assume).
problem is min/max players build their cha like a PC game character (insert game) instead og a well rounded person with motivations and desires... and how can a paladin ever retain the power of a good aligned deity if he makes a pact with a devil? or orther evil entity. that is a purely mechanical thing that makes no sense for a person who truely believe in good and is devoted to a god... not good enough for you? well if your goal in life is to make money and be able to support yourself etc why not just sell some drugs or steal fo stuff? becuase you are a person who think its wrong and not the way to go about life (i assume).
Yep I agree that the ends do not justify the means for a Devotion Paladin.
Yes, is a "good" Paladin makes a pact with a baatezu, that sounds both unlikely from neither the devil nor the Paladin, unless the Paladin wants to change to the "winning team" so to speak. Ultimately the same rules can be skinned anyway you need. Why not use those same rules for a fiend or a fae and say the pact is with a celestial? The rules can can be the same, you're just filing off the serial numbers and giving it a coat of paint.
Sidenote: I think part of the discussion comes from (I'm assuming) many people here come from monotheistic cultures. In a polytheistic culture, and D&D is a polytheistic culture where priests know God(s) are real, no faith required!. Faith here is the faith that a given God will provide for the prayers of a servant. Knowing many Gods are real and possibly giving homage to many them at the right time doesn't stop a person from devoting oneself to a single deity. It would make sense for a Paladin of Ares to give a prayer to Possiden before boarding a ship.
On that note a Pact may not be with the deity itself, but a "patron saint" of the deity. A low ranking Angel wants to move up in the heavens, so she devotes more time to the mortal plane to cultivate people to the worship of the angel's boss. This could even give the GM hooks to work with, having a cryptic NPC having a direct line to a PC's dreams and visions?
Image you have a Paladin possibly belonging to the Emerald Enclave has taken Oath of the Ancients. Who says the Paladin worships a single God and not a pantheon of nature gods? The PC herself does. Would it be out of place for the PC to form a Pact with a powerful Fey? If the player went Paladin/Sorcerer(Wild Magic), it's easy to theme the Wild Magic Surges as "gifts" from her deity. She's blue and a foot shorter... because God works in mysterious ways.
Now this could be a pretty cool concept with a lot of heavy RP, but the concept itself comes from wanting to mix and match powers to make a character.
It's also why I'm glad Unearth Arcana came out with the Favored Soul (a divine Sorcerer) and The Seeker Pact. Also a Pact of the Raven Queen to give an example of a deity specific Pact.
Good game can come from deductive and inductive characters.
I'm not saying that bland characters with no spark of life don't exist due to multiclassing for a power. I suspect those characters will be bland and boring no matter what class(es) they are. I've seen so many half-orc Barbarians that lack flavor... it all tastes like half-orc vanilla grunting.
Also, yeah if you find a player's style disruptive... don't play with them. It's probably not a problem with the rules, but the person. I'd recommend avoiding "rocks fall dumb character dies", but if they don't fit the group just say you don't want to play with them.
a paladin could indeed become a warlock or what ever but would lose the favor of what ever god he was aligned to. basicly becoming a sucky fighter instead...
the sorcerer thing is based on the world i guess. sorcerery is something you are born with and expresses itself in the teen years of and there fore character can never pick sorcerer later but has to pick it a lvl 1 if he wants to be a sorcerer.
any character can be bland even if you lack the roleplay skills to actaully make a character interesting. i have seen alot of players wanting to make a "cool" character and then go and make a (insert wierd race here) (insert wierd class here) because they think it makes them speciel only to have it fall flat on its ass beause they just play like a regular joe. it also puts alot of extra workload on the DM who now has to have every NPC react to what ever bullshit the player came up with and has to focus alot of attention on this special needs person instead of the story and group. i find it much more cooler to be a regular joe human fighter and be special and interesting through roleplay. this is why i run a strict set of rules in my campaign... no you cant pla a gnome, deal with it
But I do not think we are saying that absolutely a Paladin cannot multiclass in Warlock or Sorcerer. Just saying that devotion paladin has its tenets to respect and fulfill (and not because the paladin does not know that there are indeed many gods in D&D). So it comes naturally for a DM to ask: Ok wait from devotion paladin now you want take warlock path of the fiend??
Of course it is more natural for an Oath of the Ancients to take levels in Archfey Warlock. As a DM, I just want to hear: how did you manage to contact the patron? Did the patron contact you? Who is it? What did the patron ask from you in exchange for power? (with those answer, The DM can also play the patron)
In the end, that is just my requirement for multiclassing. Justify your choice based on your character, the background, the setting etc....not just because the player says : "I want more Divine smite".
roleplay wise there are classes there are easier to multi class into... i mean its "easy" for a wizard to pick up a sword and start training and for a fighter to learn from a wizard in the party to pick up a lvl in wizard and then go from there than it is to make a pact with a powerful entity... why would a powerful entity even give the player acces to some of its power instead of just demanding their help etc...
diffrent tables diffrent rules but if hte cringe factor gets too high im out so fast
Paladins get their power from their Oath, it has nothing to do with a god. And also, Falling doesn't really exist for paladins. You do things because you habeeb it, not because the DM decides to take your class features away.
Paladins get their power from their Oath, it has nothing to do with a god. And also, Falling doesn't really exist for paladins. You do things because you habeeb it, not because the DM decides to take your class features away.
The rules say through meditation and prayer like a cleric so unless you can pray to inanimate ideas their power comes from a god.
The rules say through meditation and prayer like a cleric so unless you can pray to inanimate ideas their power comes from a god.
Spellcasting
By 2nd level, you have learned to draw on divine magic through meditation and prayer to cast spells as a cleric does.
The Cause of Righteousness
A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.
Paladins train for years to learn the skills of combat, mastering a variety of weapons and armor. Even so, their martial skills are secondary to the magical power they wield: power to heal the sick and injured, to smite the wicked and the undead, and to protect the innocent and those who join them in the fight for justice.
:From Class Details: Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil. Whether sworn before a god’s altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin’s oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.
Creating a Paladin
The most important aspect of a paladin character is the nature of his or her holy quest. Although the class features related to your oath don’t appear until you reach 3rd level, plan ahead for that choice by reading the oath descriptions at the end of the class. Are you a devoted servant of good, loyal to the gods of justice and honor, a holy knight in shining armor venturing forth to smite evil? Are you a glorious champion of the light, cherishing everything beautiful that stands against the shadow, a knight whose oath descends from traditions older than many of the gods? Or are you an embittered loner sworn to take vengeance on those who have done great evil, sent as an angel of death by the gods or driven by your need for revenge?
As guardians against the forces of wickedness, paladins are rarely of any evil alignment. Most of them walk the paths of charity and justice. Consider how your alignment colors the way you pursue your holy quest and the manner in which you conduct yourself before gods and mortals. Your oath and alignment might be in harmony, or your oath might represent standards of behavior that you have not yet attained.
Spellcasting acts like a Cleric's. However, the Paladin's class features, which are more than just spellcasting, come from your oath. You don't need a God to get class features, but you do need a Sacred Oath.
Paladins get their power from their Oath, it has nothing to do with a god. And also, Falling doesn't really exist for paladins. You do things because you habeeb it, not because the DM decides to take your class features away.
The rules say through meditation and prayer like a cleric so unless you can pray to inanimate ideas their power comes from a god.
You can also pray to spirits, ancestors, the universe. Paladins in 5e have no direct requirement to be aligned with any god. They could in fact be praying directly to their oath.
As a matter of your table, you can certainly change it so that gods directly power paladins. But as a matter of rules, they do not.
Paladins get their power from their Oath, it has nothing to do with a god. And also, Falling doesn't really exist for paladins. You do things because you habeeb it, not because the DM decides to take your class features away.
The rules say through meditation and prayer like a cleric so unless you can pray to inanimate ideas their power comes from a god.
You can also pray to spirits, ancestors, the universe. Paladins in 5e have no direct requirement to be aligned with any god. They could in fact be praying directly to their oath.
As a matter of your table, you can certainly change it so that gods directly power paladins. But as a matter of rules, they do not.
You literally cannot pray to an oath. It's not an actual thing. Neither is the universe. It can't grant you divine magic.
A druid does get their power from nature, but the clear intent of a paladin is they get it from a god.
The rules say through meditation and prayer like a cleric so unless you can pray to inanimate ideas their power comes from a god.
Spellcasting
By 2nd level, you have learned to draw on divine magic through meditation and prayer to cast spells as a cleric does.
The Cause of Righteousness
A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.
Paladins train for years to learn the skills of combat, mastering a variety of weapons and armor. Even so, their martial skills are secondary to the magical power they wield: power to heal the sick and injured, to smite the wicked and the undead, and to protect the innocent and those who join them in the fight for justice.
:From Class Details: Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil. Whether sworn before a god’s altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin’s oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.
Creating a Paladin
The most important aspect of a paladin character is the nature of his or her holy quest. Although the class features related to your oath don’t appear until you reach 3rd level, plan ahead for that choice by reading the oath descriptions at the end of the class. Are you a devoted servant of good, loyal to the gods of justice and honor, a holy knight in shining armor venturing forth to smite evil? Are you a glorious champion of the light, cherishing everything beautiful that stands against the shadow, a knight whose oath descends from traditions older than many of the gods? Or are you an embittered loner sworn to take vengeance on those who have done great evil, sent as an angel of death by the gods or driven by your need for revenge?
As guardians against the forces of wickedness, paladins are rarely of any evil alignment. Most of them walk the paths of charity and justice. Consider how your alignment colors the way you pursue your holy quest and the manner in which you conduct yourself before gods and mortals. Your oath and alignment might be in harmony, or your oath might represent standards of behavior that you have not yet attained.
Spellcasting acts like a Cleric's. However, the Paladin's class features, which are more than just spellcasting, come from your oath. You don't need a God to get class features, but you do need a Sacred Oath.
Given that the other divine classes lack the phrase "as a cleric" the Paladin clearly has more connection to a cleric than just it works the same way in the game.
Personally, I am glad that the super-strict behaviour codes for Paladins from earlier editions have not made it to 5e. There's much more flexibility in how they play now, that can lead to much more interesting characters, rather than 1-dimensional Lawful Good justice machines.
Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.
It seems that the design is, as others have mentioned, that all of the Paladin's powers come from the Oath that they have sworn.
In turn, it is implied several times that the reason the Oath has power is because it was witnessed by a supernatural entity of some sort, whether than be a God, nature spirit or something entirely different.
Whether sworn before a god’s altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin’s oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.
With the Oath being so central to the core of the Paladin, they should never knowingly do anything that would break that Oath, or go against it's tenets. Whilst it's an odd set of circumstances, it is perfectly feasible for a Paladin/Warlock to have the power for both classes effectively derived from the same place. Their warlock patron is the being that witnessed their Oath (and therefore powers it). It's certainly unusual, but could totally have a cool story.
Of course, if a Paladin player just said, "I take a warlock level because it's powerful" then a DM is well within their rights to ask the player to justify it.
roleplay wise there are classes there are easier to multi class into... i mean its "easy" for a wizard to pick up a sword and start training and for a fighter to learn from a wizard in the party to pick up a lvl in wizard and then go from there than it is to make a pact with a powerful entity... why would a powerful entity even give the player acces to some of its power instead of just demanding their help etc...
diffrent tables diffrent rules but if hte cringe factor gets too high im out so fast
The rules for warlocks explicitly state that it is possible for the patron of a warlock to not even be aware of the warlock's connection to the patron. You have bacteria on/in you that literally live off of you, gaining their entire lifecycle directly from you, that you are completely unaware of. Maybe you know the technical details that they exist, but you have no awareness of individual ones, and couldn't stop yourself from feeding them if you wanted to. This is especially accurate for the great old one patron, basically a warlock might have found some way to channel some of the energies radiated by the wholly alien and powerful being. The old one may be unaware of uncaring about the warlock.
Why would the creature make a pact instead of demanding help? Because a willing servant can be more effective than a coerced one. Especially if the service needed requires the servant to act independently. Furthermore the entity might be barred from directly interfering in the material plane, but having champions or other agents is acceptable. Maybe the entity just enjoys the idea of corrupting mortals. Maybe the pact wasn't even the characters choice. A devil tricks a paladin into accepting a pact, believing it is part of their order's secret upper echelon, now the paladin has to maintain his oath while being constantly monitored or influenced by this greater devil.
Great beings in fantasy are very often capricious and do not act in logical end goal defined means. Their entertainment and diversions are impulses drive them.
roleplay wise there are classes there are easier to multi class into... i mean its "easy" for a wizard to pick up a sword and start training and for a fighter to learn from a wizard in the party to pick up a lvl in wizard and then go from there than it is to make a pact with a powerful entity... why would a powerful entity even give the player acces to some of its power instead of just demanding their help etc...
diffrent tables diffrent rules but if hte cringe factor gets too high im out so fast
The rules for warlocks explicitly state that it is possible for the patron of a warlock to not even be aware of the warlock's connection to the patron.
If you are referring to this sentence:
But many warlocks serve patrons that are not fiendish. Sometimes a traveler in the wilds comes to a strangely beautiful tower, meets its fey lord or lady, and stumbles into a pact without being fully aware of it.
I believe that is the other way around. It is the warlock that may be not aware about having made a pact.
Tapping "Plethora of Paladins" from Dragon #106, all kinds of roleplay/metagame justifications can be had to explain any flavour/alignment of paladin. Illriggers, Arrikhans, and Anti-Paladins (termed Cenobites for my campaigns) having some warlock twists makes total sense. Just sayin'.
*casts summon popcorn cantrip and sits back to continue watching the show* I wish the old Wizards.COMmunity forums were still accessible, this thread has touched upon several classic topics, it would be interesting to see how much has changed in the arguments.
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The Stormwind Fallacy is running rampant throughout this post. Roleplaying and min/maxing are not mutually exclusive activities. Roleplaying is not a high art theatrical performance, it's the act of stepping outside of yourself and making decisions as your character would make them. It's not doing voices. It's not talking with an NPC ad nausea.
When I read comments like this, I can see why newer players who are initially interested in the mechanical side of things are unable to grow as roleplayers - they're never given the opportunity to learn about the roleplaying side because some people immediately lump them into the "kids" group. Shaming people for wanting to do 100 damage in around is the same as shaming people who likes to do voices at the table or dress up or whatever helps them get in the mindset of their character.
I also see a lot of crapping on WoW. If you had an open mind and went and looked at some boss fights and dungeons, you would find a lot of great ideas for making interesting encounters with engaging features that can make memorable moments in the campaign.
I encourage min/maxing at the table, specifically for role-playing reasons. If I'm an adventurer who's been tasked with going on an epic quest to stop a big bad evil guy from destroying the world, I'll tell you what I'm going to do - I'm going to tell Steve the quirky, unperceptive rogue with low DEX, but a high level of spunk to sit tight at the tavern and continue complaining with the other regulars. Then I'm going to go meet up with three people who are real focused at what they do and who complement my strengths and weaknesses.
The four of us are going to set out on our quest. Along the way we're going to stop off at some towns and cities, make a few new friends, maybe make a few enemies, help some people out here and there, and get into some shenanigans. We'll learn new skills, use our brains and brawn to solve problems as needed, have some big laughs, shed some big tears, and have a grand time doing so.
Eventually, after all of the physical, mental, and personal growth we've experienced along the way, we're going to go stop that big bad evil guy in an epic showdown using our wits, talents, and the incredible abilities we've honed along the way. Then I'm going to go back to the tavern and tell Steve the quirky rogue all about my epic adventure, provided he's able to stop complaining long enough to listen.
And I subscribe to the notion that many players like to cover their deficiencies. All it takes is hitting some weaknesses to guide the growth of a character.
problem is min/max players build their cha like a PC game character (insert game) instead og a well rounded person with motivations and desires... and how can a paladin ever retain the power of a good aligned deity if he makes a pact with a devil? or orther evil entity. that is a purely mechanical thing that makes no sense for a person who truely believe in good and is devoted to a god... not good enough for you? well if your goal in life is to make money and be able to support yourself etc why not just sell some drugs or steal fo stuff? becuase you are a person who think its wrong and not the way to go about life (i assume).
Yes, is a "good" Paladin makes a pact with a baatezu, that sounds both unlikely from neither the devil nor the Paladin, unless the Paladin wants to change to the "winning team" so to speak. Ultimately the same rules can be skinned anyway you need. Why not use those same rules for a fiend or a fae and say the pact is with a celestial? The rules can can be the same, you're just filing off the serial numbers and giving it a coat of paint.
Sidenote: I think part of the discussion comes from (I'm assuming) many people here come from monotheistic cultures. In a polytheistic culture, and D&D is a polytheistic culture where priests know God(s) are real, no faith required!. Faith here is the faith that a given God will provide for the prayers of a servant. Knowing many Gods are real and possibly giving homage to many them at the right time doesn't stop a person from devoting oneself to a single deity. It would make sense for a Paladin of Ares to give a prayer to Possiden before boarding a ship.
On that note a Pact may not be with the deity itself, but a "patron saint" of the deity. A low ranking Angel wants to move up in the heavens, so she devotes more time to the mortal plane to cultivate people to the worship of the angel's boss. This could even give the GM hooks to work with, having a cryptic NPC having a direct line to a PC's dreams and visions?
Image you have a Paladin possibly belonging to the Emerald Enclave has taken Oath of the Ancients. Who says the Paladin worships a single God and not a pantheon of nature gods? The PC herself does. Would it be out of place for the PC to form a Pact with a powerful Fey? If the player went Paladin/Sorcerer(Wild Magic), it's easy to theme the Wild Magic Surges as "gifts" from her deity. She's blue and a foot shorter... because God works in mysterious ways.
Now this could be a pretty cool concept with a lot of heavy RP, but the concept itself comes from wanting to mix and match powers to make a character.
It's also why I'm glad Unearth Arcana came out with the Favored Soul (a divine Sorcerer) and The Seeker Pact. Also a Pact of the Raven Queen to give an example of a deity specific Pact.
Good game can come from deductive and inductive characters.
I'm not saying that bland characters with no spark of life don't exist due to multiclassing for a power. I suspect those characters will be bland and boring no matter what class(es) they are. I've seen so many half-orc Barbarians that lack flavor... it all tastes like half-orc vanilla grunting.
Also, yeah if you find a player's style disruptive... don't play with them. It's probably not a problem with the rules, but the person. I'd recommend avoiding "rocks fall dumb character dies", but if they don't fit the group just say you don't want to play with them.
a paladin could indeed become a warlock or what ever but would lose the favor of what ever god he was aligned to. basicly becoming a sucky fighter instead...
the sorcerer thing is based on the world i guess. sorcerery is something you are born with and expresses itself in the teen years of and there fore character can never pick sorcerer later but has to pick it a lvl 1 if he wants to be a sorcerer.
any character can be bland even if you lack the roleplay skills to actaully make a character interesting. i have seen alot of players wanting to make a "cool" character and then go and make a (insert wierd race here) (insert wierd class here) because they think it makes them speciel only to have it fall flat on its ass beause they just play like a regular joe. it also puts alot of extra workload on the DM who now has to have every NPC react to what ever bullshit the player came up with and has to focus alot of attention on this special needs person instead of the story and group. i find it much more cooler to be a regular joe human fighter and be special and interesting through roleplay. this is why i run a strict set of rules in my campaign... no you cant pla a gnome, deal with it
But I do not think we are saying that absolutely a Paladin cannot multiclass in Warlock or Sorcerer. Just saying that devotion paladin has its tenets to respect and fulfill (and not because the paladin does not know that there are indeed many gods in D&D). So it comes naturally for a DM to ask: Ok wait from devotion paladin now you want take warlock path of the fiend??
Of course it is more natural for an Oath of the Ancients to take levels in Archfey Warlock. As a DM, I just want to hear: how did you manage to contact the patron? Did the patron contact you? Who is it? What did the patron ask from you in exchange for power? (with those answer, The DM can also play the patron)
In the end, that is just my requirement for multiclassing. Justify your choice based on your character, the background, the setting etc....not just because the player says : "I want more Divine smite".
roleplay wise there are classes there are easier to multi class into... i mean its "easy" for a wizard to pick up a sword and start training and for a fighter to learn from a wizard in the party to pick up a lvl in wizard and then go from there than it is to make a pact with a powerful entity... why would a powerful entity even give the player acces to some of its power instead of just demanding their help etc...
diffrent tables diffrent rules but if hte cringe factor gets too high im out so fast
Spellcasting
By 2nd level, you have learned to draw on divine magic through meditation and prayer to cast spells as a cleric does.
The Cause of Righteousness
A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.
Paladins train for years to learn the skills of combat, mastering a variety of weapons and armor. Even so, their martial skills are secondary to the magical power they wield: power to heal the sick and injured, to smite the wicked and the undead, and to protect the innocent and those who join them in the fight for justice.
:From Class Details:
Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil. Whether sworn before a god’s altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin’s oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.
Creating a Paladin
The most important aspect of a paladin character is the nature of his or her holy quest. Although the class features related to your oath don’t appear until you reach 3rd level, plan ahead for that choice by reading the oath descriptions at the end of the class. Are you a devoted servant of good, loyal to the gods of justice and honor, a holy knight in shining armor venturing forth to smite evil? Are you a glorious champion of the light, cherishing everything beautiful that stands against the shadow, a knight whose oath descends from traditions older than many of the gods? Or are you an embittered loner sworn to take vengeance on those who have done great evil, sent as an angel of death by the gods or driven by your need for revenge?
As guardians against the forces of wickedness, paladins are rarely of any evil alignment. Most of them walk the paths of charity and justice. Consider how your alignment colors the way you pursue your holy quest and the manner in which you conduct yourself before gods and mortals. Your oath and alignment might be in harmony, or your oath might represent standards of behavior that you have not yet attained.
Spellcasting acts like a Cleric's. However, the Paladin's class features, which are more than just spellcasting, come from your oath. You don't need a God to get class features, but you do need a Sacred Oath.
justify all you want... if u wanna allow that in your game, go right ahead... but im never ever gonna allow bullshit like that..
Personally, I am glad that the super-strict behaviour codes for Paladins from earlier editions have not made it to 5e. There's much more flexibility in how they play now, that can lead to much more interesting characters, rather than 1-dimensional Lawful Good justice machines.
It seems that the design is, as others have mentioned, that all of the Paladin's powers come from the Oath that they have sworn.
In turn, it is implied several times that the reason the Oath has power is because it was witnessed by a supernatural entity of some sort, whether than be a God, nature spirit or something entirely different.
With the Oath being so central to the core of the Paladin, they should never knowingly do anything that would break that Oath, or go against it's tenets. Whilst it's an odd set of circumstances, it is perfectly feasible for a Paladin/Warlock to have the power for both classes effectively derived from the same place. Their warlock patron is the being that witnessed their Oath (and therefore powers it). It's certainly unusual, but could totally have a cool story.
Of course, if a Paladin player just said, "I take a warlock level because it's powerful" then a DM is well within their rights to ask the player to justify it.
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Tapping "Plethora of Paladins" from Dragon #106, all kinds of roleplay/metagame justifications can be had to explain any flavour/alignment of paladin. Illriggers, Arrikhans, and Anti-Paladins (termed Cenobites for my campaigns) having some warlock twists makes total sense. Just sayin'.
*casts summon popcorn cantrip and sits back to continue watching the show* I wish the old Wizards.COMmunity forums were still accessible, this thread has touched upon several classic topics, it would be interesting to see how much has changed in the arguments.
We all leave footprints in the sands of time.