(I am being naughty play the game how you and your players/DM enjoy it - IT IS A GAME - GAMES ARE FUN! :) ) - You are a toy!
Ok I am going to come out and say it (I have already upset some people and I hope the topic thread is clear...) this min/max c##p optimisation gubbins makes no sense!?! D&D is a RPG - I do not care for your how do I max my dps with my Drow Fighter/Cleric/Monk/Camp follower...I have taken this Feat and just BO###KS. I know some people enjoy creating the perfect...(Insert)...but really think about it...you are a bod...no different from anyone else apart that will to survive...do what is necessary to get the job done.
(More fun poking fun...it is a joke...)
If you want to have the perfect killing machine in whatever constrained universe you live in go play Pathfinder - I bought the books, I have a Maths Degree but dear god the NUMBERS! It is a game...an excuse for friends to get around together and say I love you (KILL THEM ALL!!! WITH FIRE!!!! HIT IT AGAIN!!!!)
I am older than most I suspect...I started with Runequest (sorry - he had the money and made a bad choice - I made up for it over the years...) and a GM who would not let you read the rules...but sometimes I think we forget the fun and concentrate on the optimal...(inset class here)...the fun is the get together. I have rolled up many, many (1,000's computers did not help) of characters and played only a handful...
I have a file (Hands up) it contains characters for games I will never play (SLA Industries,Judge Dredd, Kult, D&D {name your edition}, Paranoia (yes I roll up characters for Paranoia - if you play my Only War it makes sense), Deathwatch, Laundry, Call of Cthulhu, Eclipse Phase, Only War, Rouge Trader, War Hammer and so many more...many more...
I do not like min/maxing, "optimisation"...it seems to me missing the point BUT and it's a big BUT...I accept that others play the game differently from me...(they are wrong)..but it's ok..it really is....
It's your game (**** what it says in the book)...have FUN and let no one else tell you otherwise....except Halfling Paladin WTF is going on there.... :0
Min/Maxing is usually considered bad because you end up doing 100 points of damage every attack for your 18 attacks, while the rest of the party manages to get in 20 points of damage over their two attacks. So You do 1800 damage and the party as a whole does like 120. And the entire party ends up dead while you are sitting on 500 hp. and Whenever a skill is rolled you end up with the largest bonus to the skill, so you might as well roll everything.
Basically Min./Maxing isn't necessarily bad, but it does have the tendency to make your character insanely better than everyone else. Which is okay if everyone else has min/maxed
BUT
This is a roleplaying game. Does it really make sense that you have a Warlock/Paladin/Rogue/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger running around? Of course the min/maxer will always have a rp reason for why their odd class choices make sense, but this was really made after the fact and not for rp purposes at all.
Yes my examples are exaggerated, but that is really what it comes down to in practice. Or at least how it seems to us who roleplay more than we min/max.
Min/Maxing is usually considered bad because you end up doing 100 points of damage every attack for your 18 attacks, while the rest of the party manages to get in 20 points of damage over their two attacks. So You do 1800 damage and the party as a whole does like 120. And the entire party ends up dead while you are sitting on 500 hp. and Whenever a skill is rolled you end up with the largest bonus to the skill, so you might as well roll everything.
Basically Min./Maxing isn't necessarily bad, but it does have the tendency to make your character insanely better than everyone else. Which is okay if everyone else has min/maxed
BUT
This is a roleplaying game. Does it really make sense that you have a Warlock/Paladin/Rogue/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger running around? Of course the min/maxer will always have a rp reason for why their odd class choices make sense, but this was really made after the fact and not for rp purposes at all.
Yes my examples are exaggerated, but that is really what it comes down to in practice. Or at least how it seems to us who roleplay more than we min/max.
That's why I don't go onto the Paladin forums here. I swear to Tyr it's like they are all about Paladin/Sorcerer or Paladin/Warlock for smite builds. It will always be a Vengeance Paladin + <insert class that gets regenerating spell slots here> and they'll take the Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master feats... without fail.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Min/Maxing is usually considered bad because you end up doing 100 points of damage every attack for your 18 attacks, while the rest of the party manages to get in 20 points of damage over their two attacks. So You do 1800 damage and the party as a whole does like 120. And the entire party ends up dead while you are sitting on 500 hp. and Whenever a skill is rolled you end up with the largest bonus to the skill, so you might as well roll everything.
Basically Min./Maxing isn't necessarily bad, but it does have the tendency to make your character insanely better than everyone else. Which is okay if everyone else has min/maxed
BUT
This is a roleplaying game. Does it really make sense that you have a Warlock/Paladin/Rogue/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger running around? Of course the min/maxer will always have a rp reason for why their odd class choices make sense, but this was really made after the fact and not for rp purposes at all.
Yes my examples are exaggerated, but that is really what it comes down to in practice. Or at least how it seems to us who roleplay more than we min/max.
That's why I don't go onto the Paladin forums here. I swear to Tyr it's like they are all about Paladin/Sorcerer or Paladin/Warlock for smite builds. It will always be a Vengeance Paladin + <insert class that gets regenerating spell slots here> and they'll take the Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master feats... without fail.
But on the plus side it is because their Paladin found that making a pact with a demon helped them achieve the goals of their oath or something like that. I'm not even sure at this point if there is any attempt at all to come up with a unique rp reason for doing it.
Don't forget the ones who are tricked into it... Because apparently half the paladins in the game are dumb and their deity doesn't love them enough to tell them.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I don't really see a problem if a player wants to have a character that's extremely optimized in a specific field, and the dump stat can add to interesting roleplaying moments.
i will kill any min/maxer at my table until he cries.. i dont mind interesting concepts for characters that is best archieved by multiclassing but i have a few rules for it
like you can never multiclass into sorcerer
you can only ever have 1 additional class
the ratio between your classes are not allowed to be greater than 1:2
taking 1-2 lvls in a class to gain acces to a single feature is bullshi imo... the fighter suffer alot from this with action surge
and dont get me started on the paladin builds... omg what a load of shit..
i will kill any min/maxer at my table until he cries.. i dont mind interesting concepts for characters that is best archieved by multiclassing but i have a few rules for it
A more balanced approach is to always talk to your group, before anyone rolls a single die or assigns a stat point, making sure everyone is on the same page regarding the level of roleplay vs roll-play.
If you have a group that mostly want to create interesting and flawed characters, for the roleplay that creates, but you have one person focussed on creating an OP engine of destruction, then you're going to have conflict for the whole campaign. The powergamer will sometimes make the rest of the players feel pointless when it comes to combat, whereas, the powergamer will get bored when the rest of the players are having fun spending an entire session in a social setting, roleplaying and using skills that the powergamer's character doesn't have.
I run two main groups - an older group at a local game cafe (Dice & Donuts - Preston - Yes I do D&D at D&D - sorry) and a younger group at school ( I am a teacher) who are all new to it...the younger group all have roles....Tank, DPS, Healer - all WoW drop outs - the older group have characters they want to play and stuff the group mechanic - they have no dedicated healer - just a Tempest cleric who throws out some healing now and again...
I am not a fan of Pathfinder...it seems to attract the builders of optimal characters and does this rule allow me to....D&D 5th ed is back to what I remember - some mechanics that let you enable the players to tell a story - not a good or heroic one sometimes but a story.
I run two main groups - an older group at a local game cafe (Dice & Donuts - Preston - Yes I do D&D at D&D - sorry) and a younger group at school ( I am a teacher) who are all new to it...the younger group all have roles....Tank, DPS, Healer - all WoW drop outs - the older group have characters they want to play and stuff the group mechanic - they have no dedicated healer - just a Tempest cleric who throws out some healing now and again...
I am not a fan of Pathfinder...it seems to attract the builders of optimal characters and does this rule allow me to....D&D 5th ed is back to what I remember - some mechanics that let you enable the players to tell a story - not a good or heroic one sometimes but a story.
Yeah, indeed all the new generation view of the game (Tank, DPS, healer) seems to come from online games. Don't get me wrong, those games are fun too, but they just are on the other side of the roleplaying world.
the thing about multi classing as a cleric is that the deity has to grant you powers, and that kind of power doesnt come from serving sludge for a few months at a temple
unless you are a devout follower of a god to begin with i dont see this happening
i have seen alot of people who multi class to cleric to gain a domain that grants heavy armor
i will kill any min/maxer at my table until he cries.. i dont mind interesting concepts for characters that is best archieved by multiclassing but i have a few rules for it
like you can never multiclass into sorcerer
you can only ever have 1 additional class
the ratio between your classes are not allowed to be greater than 1:2
taking 1-2 lvls in a class to gain acces to a single feature is bullshi imo... the fighter suffer alot from this with action surge
and dont get me started on the paladin builds... omg what a load of shit..
That is totally unnecessary and frankly rude. Talk to your players before the game even begins about expectations and guidelines. Session 0. Don't go Judge Dredd on them for wanting to play a mechanically cool character. A lot of my friends' best role played characters have been from very optimized or even min/maxed. That doesn't stop a great story from unfolding or even more important, people having fun. If it does ruin a person's fun, that is more often a player problem and not a character one.
This....just seems like a shocking lack of creativity and foresight.
From the standpoint of a GM, DnD 5th is not GURPS. You cannot make a character *so* min/maxed that they can do literally anything. Even cheesing the RAW to it's fullest potential, the power level is still manageable by even minimal efforts. Are they overly powerful in combat? Throw non-combat encounters in. Social issues, power struggles, hell even traps. Put them in no-win situations they cannot fight out of. Hell, if someone is THAT powerful, how would all of the nemeses and evil factions be totally unaware of this person? How would they not study them? Even Batman had his villians figure out his limits and weaknesses and exploit those. The point of a Min/Maxed character is there is both a min *and* a max. A good GM will exploit the min while allowing the player to flex their "max".
From the standpoint of a player: why do stats or build have to totally factor out of roleplay? Can't I use my 20 Strength and 8 Intelligence in fun and interesting ways? You can be the best actor in the world and be a veteran roleplayer, but that 10 Strength Human is not moving the boulder out of the way by himself without really shattering any sense of reality in the world. Fezzik from Princess Bride is a perfect example of this: someone who is built for a singular purpose - Strength - and yet is a fundamentally interesting, quirky, and enjoyable character. If the player is making an optimized character, figure out why. If they are trying to "win" D&D, then yes, that is a bad thing and totally missing the point of what makes games like these fun, but if they are simply trying to make a niche character, I see no issues with that.
I guess I have to be the disenting voice here: Are you SERIOUS? LordXathrusand I have disagreed in other threads.
I love D&D, I really do, but it's campy, it's silly, and not exactly a serious Role Playing Game. It started off as Chainmail, the 1st Ed D&D was little more then a tactical combat simulator in the floral dress of RPG. To this day only classes who usually get enough skill points to play a "social" character to do serious role-playing is the Rogue/Bard. Speaking of which, now that all the classes are more balanced in combat, why do Rogues and Bards get a monopoly on more then 2 skills for class!? Most games are us role-playing human/dwarf/elf/furries murder hobos. The life of an Adventurer is a Ronin or a Trouble-shooter. We're fighting orcs and dragons now role playing how well we brought in the harvest.
Maybe I'm a grumpy old man. I started out on D&D and White-Wolf, the later being the more immersive role-play heavy game. We played at the border of 2nd/3rd Ed D&D, which were the days when you didn't get attached to characters because the mortality rates were so high. You created character after character until one finally lived long enough to be remembered, because a wizard had less HP then a bow delt in damage at first level and you died at 0, without optional rules for negative hit points. Now the game is less hide-bound of it's influences from Tolkien. I remember arguing with people about how they "can't believe" that Dwarves were allowed to be wizards in 3rd Ed, because Dwarves weren't supposed to have magic. And yes, it's your right to make all the rules your want in your games as the GM, but gish characters have always been around and how many extra hoops do you want make a player jump through to justify their concept of their character to you? There is less need for it now.
If you want to play a Sword-Mage the Eldritch Knight exists, instead of having to dip a few levels of Wizard into your fighter. What if you want to play a Mage-Sword? There is the BladeSinger, but that has it's own restrictions and if you don't want that sub-class or it's not legal the Wizard wants medium armor she will probably Multiclass a single level of a Cleric of Knowledge diety, if she wants to have medium armor and a shield. She might even take it at her 1st level so she gets the simple weapon proficiencies, then Wizard from 2nd level up. It's a choice to either lose 1 level to multiclass or lose 2 ASI's (assuming Feats are legal) at 8th level to get proficiency in Light Armor (4th) then Medium Armor & Shields (8th). The first player started her concept at 2nd level, the 2nd player had to wait until 8th level. What is the deal with Dungeons & Dragons puritanism?
i suppose they could make a subclass for battlemage or something that start with martial weapons medium armor and then cutting back a bit of the magic to compensate... but who is still more magic focussed than the EK
i know im missing a battlemage type that doenst rely on waiting for 10 lvls or multiclassing
tbh i find the spellsinger to be a too specific type of battlemage.... why not just go bard? its basicly the same thing with some feats etc
(I am being naughty play the game how you and your players/DM enjoy it - IT IS A GAME - GAMES ARE FUN! :) ) - You are a toy!
Ok I am going to come out and say it (I have already upset some people and I hope the topic thread is clear...) this min/max c##p optimisation gubbins makes no sense!?! D&D is a RPG - I do not care for your how do I max my dps with my Drow Fighter/Cleric/Monk/Camp follower...I have taken this Feat and just BO###KS. I know some people enjoy creating the perfect...(Insert)...but really think about it...you are a bod...no different from anyone else apart that will to survive...do what is necessary to get the job done.
(More fun poking fun...it is a joke...)
If you want to have the perfect killing machine in whatever constrained universe you live in go play Pathfinder - I bought the books, I have a Maths Degree but dear god the NUMBERS! It is a game...an excuse for friends to get around together and say I love you (KILL THEM ALL!!! WITH FIRE!!!! HIT IT AGAIN!!!!)
I am older than most I suspect...I started with Runequest (sorry - he had the money and made a bad choice - I made up for it over the years...) and a GM who would not let you read the rules...but sometimes I think we forget the fun and concentrate on the optimal...(inset class here)...the fun is the get together. I have rolled up many, many (1,000's computers did not help) of characters and played only a handful...
I have a file (Hands up) it contains characters for games I will never play (SLA Industries,Judge Dredd, Kult, D&D {name your edition}, Paranoia (yes I roll up characters for Paranoia - if you play my Only War it makes sense), Deathwatch, Laundry, Call of Cthulhu, Eclipse Phase, Only War, Rouge Trader, War Hammer and so many more...many more...
I do not like min/maxing, "optimisation"...it seems to me missing the point BUT and it's a big BUT...I accept that others play the game differently from me...(they are wrong)..but it's ok..it really is....
It's your game (**** what it says in the book)...have FUN and let no one else tell you otherwise....except Halfling Paladin WTF is going on there.... :0
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe....
Min/Maxing is usually considered bad because you end up doing 100 points of damage every attack for your 18 attacks, while the rest of the party manages to get in 20 points of damage over their two attacks. So You do 1800 damage and the party as a whole does like 120. And the entire party ends up dead while you are sitting on 500 hp. and Whenever a skill is rolled you end up with the largest bonus to the skill, so you might as well roll everything.
Basically Min./Maxing isn't necessarily bad, but it does have the tendency to make your character insanely better than everyone else. Which is okay if everyone else has min/maxed
BUT
This is a roleplaying game. Does it really make sense that you have a Warlock/Paladin/Rogue/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger running around? Of course the min/maxer will always have a rp reason for why their odd class choices make sense, but this was really made after the fact and not for rp purposes at all.
Yes my examples are exaggerated, but that is really what it comes down to in practice. Or at least how it seems to us who roleplay more than we min/max.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Don't forget the ones who are tricked into it... Because apparently half the paladins in the game are dumb and their deity doesn't love them enough to tell them.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
yeah. it is the destruction of the roleplaying.
I don't really see a problem if a player wants to have a character that's extremely optimized in a specific field, and the dump stat can add to interesting roleplaying moments.
i will kill any min/maxer at my table until he cries.. i dont mind interesting concepts for characters that is best archieved by multiclassing but i have a few rules for it
like you can never multiclass into sorcerer
you can only ever have 1 additional class
the ratio between your classes are not allowed to be greater than 1:2
taking 1-2 lvls in a class to gain acces to a single feature is bullshi imo... the fighter suffer alot from this with action surge
and dont get me started on the paladin builds... omg what a load of shit..
I would restrain the multiclassing during the downtime activity. And if you justify it according to your motivation and your creed (if any).
You want multiclass in a wizard? Great, you must spend some training activity as apprentice.
In a fighter? Great, spend some time in a army, or guild.
For a cleric you must spend time in a temple...
And so on...
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Yeah I am not alone....
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe....
You'd be surprised how many older gamers are on here as well.
I started off with the D&D box set in the mid 80s.
I also have a folder with loads of characters from different games that I've played, that I'll never play again, but y'know, fond memories. :)
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I run two main groups - an older group at a local game cafe (Dice & Donuts - Preston - Yes I do D&D at D&D - sorry) and a younger group at school ( I am a teacher) who are all new to it...the younger group all have roles....Tank, DPS, Healer - all WoW drop outs - the older group have characters they want to play and stuff the group mechanic - they have no dedicated healer - just a Tempest cleric who throws out some healing now and again...
I am not a fan of Pathfinder...it seems to attract the builders of optimal characters and does this rule allow me to....D&D 5th ed is back to what I remember - some mechanics that let you enable the players to tell a story - not a good or heroic one sometimes but a story.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe....
the thing about multi classing as a cleric is that the deity has to grant you powers, and that kind of power doesnt come from serving sludge for a few months at a temple
unless you are a devout follower of a god to begin with i dont see this happening
i have seen alot of people who multi class to cleric to gain a domain that grants heavy armor
From Matt Colville
Mechanically cool character...? Please shoot me now...
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe....
This....just seems like a shocking lack of creativity and foresight.
From the standpoint of a GM, DnD 5th is not GURPS. You cannot make a character *so* min/maxed that they can do literally anything. Even cheesing the RAW to it's fullest potential, the power level is still manageable by even minimal efforts. Are they overly powerful in combat? Throw non-combat encounters in. Social issues, power struggles, hell even traps. Put them in no-win situations they cannot fight out of. Hell, if someone is THAT powerful, how would all of the nemeses and evil factions be totally unaware of this person? How would they not study them? Even Batman had his villians figure out his limits and weaknesses and exploit those. The point of a Min/Maxed character is there is both a min *and* a max. A good GM will exploit the min while allowing the player to flex their "max".
From the standpoint of a player: why do stats or build have to totally factor out of roleplay? Can't I use my 20 Strength and 8 Intelligence in fun and interesting ways? You can be the best actor in the world and be a veteran roleplayer, but that 10 Strength Human is not moving the boulder out of the way by himself without really shattering any sense of reality in the world. Fezzik from Princess Bride is a perfect example of this: someone who is built for a singular purpose - Strength - and yet is a fundamentally interesting, quirky, and enjoyable character. If the player is making an optimized character, figure out why. If they are trying to "win" D&D, then yes, that is a bad thing and totally missing the point of what makes games like these fun, but if they are simply trying to make a niche character, I see no issues with that.
I guess I have to be the disenting voice here: Are you SERIOUS? LordXathrus and I have disagreed in other threads.
I love D&D, I really do, but it's campy, it's silly, and not exactly a serious Role Playing Game. It started off as Chainmail, the 1st Ed D&D was little more then a tactical combat simulator in the floral dress of RPG.
To this day only classes who usually get enough skill points to play a "social" character to do serious role-playing is the Rogue/Bard. Speaking of which, now that all the classes are more balanced in combat, why do Rogues and Bards get a monopoly on more then 2 skills for class!? Most games are us role-playing human/dwarf/elf/furries murder hobos. The life of an Adventurer is a Ronin or a Trouble-shooter.
We're fighting orcs and dragons now role playing how well we brought in the harvest.
Maybe I'm a grumpy old man. I started out on D&D and White-Wolf, the later being the more immersive role-play heavy game. We played at the border of 2nd/3rd Ed D&D, which were the days when you didn't get attached to characters because the mortality rates were so high. You created character after character until one finally lived long enough to be remembered, because a wizard had less HP then a bow delt in damage at first level and you died at 0, without optional rules for negative hit points.
Now the game is less hide-bound of it's influences from Tolkien. I remember arguing with people about how they "can't believe" that Dwarves were allowed to be wizards in 3rd Ed, because Dwarves weren't supposed to have magic.
And yes, it's your right to make all the rules your want in your games as the GM, but gish characters have always been around and how many extra hoops do you want make a player jump through to justify their concept of their character to you? There is less need for it now.
If you want to play a Sword-Mage the Eldritch Knight exists, instead of having to dip a few levels of Wizard into your fighter. What if you want to play a Mage-Sword? There is the BladeSinger, but that has it's own restrictions and if you don't want that sub-class or it's not legal the Wizard wants medium armor she will probably Multiclass a single level of a Cleric of Knowledge diety, if she wants to have medium armor and a shield. She might even take it at her 1st level so she gets the simple weapon proficiencies, then Wizard from 2nd level up. It's a choice to either lose 1 level to multiclass or lose 2 ASI's (assuming Feats are legal) at 8th level to get proficiency in Light Armor (4th) then Medium Armor & Shields (8th). The first player started her concept at 2nd level, the 2nd player had to wait until 8th level. What is the deal with Dungeons & Dragons puritanism?
i suppose they could make a subclass for battlemage or something that start with martial weapons medium armor and then cutting back a bit of the magic to compensate... but who is still more magic focussed than the EK
i know im missing a battlemage type that doenst rely on waiting for 10 lvls or multiclassing
tbh i find the spellsinger to be a too specific type of battlemage.... why not just go bard? its basicly the same thing with some feats etc