use shape water make a 5ft ice drill and just bore your way through. you can probably use shape water to loosen hard soil by tuning it to mud all you need is a cantrip that can produce a liquids.
You dont need to loosen anything as the post above yours states...it’s not loose dirt...it was meant to describe non-stone. So regular hard earth that is not stone can be molded fine without a shovel or water
I would allow it completely. but it's a suicide mission. Just like how in medieval warfare, the sappers that sapped walls, were the equivalent of WWII Kamikazee pilots, and modern day Suicide bombers.
That's not accurate at all. It was dangerous work, and people died, but those were typically accidents and not suicide attacks.
TL;dr- you dig a supported tunnel under the wall you want to take down, then you burn or demolish the supports. Tunnel collapse, wall collapse, everyone should have been out of the tunnel.
EightPackKilla>> I would allow it completely. but it's a suicide mission. Just like how in medieval warfare, the sappers that sapped walls, were the equivalent of WWII Kamikazee pilots, and modern day Suicide bombers.
That's not accurate. While sappers did a dangerous job and accidents often happened, they weren't going on "suicide missions".
TL;dr- Dig a supported tunnel under the wall, burn/demolish the supports, tunnel collapse, wall collapse, Profit!
"Before the development of explosives, sapping was the undermining of an enemy's fortifications, which would collapse when the sap's supports were removed. Later, explosives were placed surreptitiously in the undermining sap or mine, then detonated, as was done with 450 tons of high explosive in the First World War battle of Messines, the largest planned explosion until the 1945 Trinity atomic bomb test. "
From your own link.
Ergo- Before the development of explosives.... you had to remove the support. Usually you set fire to them. But, sometimes that didn't work, due to moisture. so you'd have to chop them down, manually, with axes. Suicide mission. it's even detailed in a movie recently... https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6931414/
1 hour 52 minutes into that movie. You'll see what I'm talking about.
not to mention cans of worms of. If you want to get that technical and detailed about sapping. It's never going to be an option anyways, as it takes a very long time to sap something.
not all kamikaze pilots or suicide bombers die either. If you wondered.
I guess I confused you by using those as the terms/buzzwords. Perhaps I should have said "It's a highly risky and dangerous job, with a high mortality rate due to a lot of different possible outcomes and scenarios"
But then, I guess, D&D world, most DMs won't roll percentile dice for like, stale earth, or pockets of some sort of gas thats hazardous to breathe, etc. Or any other various problem sappers/miners encounter. Even simple ones like Den of posionous snakes. Spiders. random pocket of shallow earth over a pitfall/underwater pond or lake. etc.
I would agree with several of the above posters who effectively said "yes, but only if you have a support team to shovel out dirt and reinforce the ceiling with beams.
There is no skill even remotely like engineering is there? Should we assume that you need a dwarf or a rock gnome in the party to make this kind of thing work?
I would agree with several of the above posters who effectively said "yes, but only if you have a support team to shovel out dirt and reinforce the ceiling with beams.
There is no skill even remotely like engineering is there? Should we assume that you need a dwarf or a rock gnome in the party to make this kind of thing work?
Skill with Mason's tools is the closest. Neither mining or sapping is a distinct skill, and you would assume there are experts in the field somewhere. But it's a topic for a DM if you want to go down highly specialized skill trees.
If the goal was to simply tunnel through to a spot underground, I'd rule it was possible. But I'd also rule that it would require either using support beams/panels/whatever--which would add to the time greatly--or using other spells to shore up the walls and ceiling. If not using magic, there would be ability checks to see if a cave-in happened (the cave-in would be guaranteed if using neither supports nor magic.)
Even if using magic to support the air pockets you make while tunneling, you still probably want to cast it from a bunch of scrolls. You're likely not going to be moving forward any faster than 10 feet per minute max, so depending on the spells used, and the distance to dig, you might just burn through all of your spell slots before you finish.
If the goal is to create a complete, free-standing tunnel from point A to point B, it's still possible, but going to require a lot more time, effort, and--unless you're using Wall of Stone or something similar--materials.
Apparently it's meant to mean earth/dirt not stone. I personally feel they should have described the spell better, because I've seen this discussion come up as to tons of beliefs on what should limit the spell. The real limit of the spell if the 5' movement of the earth, so you can't move it very far, so it takes a lot of time.
This.
As Wysperra said about the distinction preventing "going directly INTO a castle wall or directly THROUGH a wall of stone. Under and around is fair game."
With enough time and subterfuge, I think you should totally be able to steadily excavate a tunnel under the wall, as long as you went deep enough. I guess it's more realistic if the DM made you use timber and whatnot, but for the purposes of a creative use of the spell and just moving things along in a fantasy setting, I'd say it works. DM's will vary, of course.
The spell says loose earth so anything the earth is made of at that location is fair game if it is "loose".
I feel like anything beyond a simple and short tunnel has a very serious risk of collapse unless it was reinforced through other means.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You dont need to loosen anything as the post above yours states...it’s not loose dirt...it was meant to describe non-stone. So regular hard earth that is not stone can be molded fine without a shovel or water
I liked the stack exchange explanation that basically it’s a magic shovel. I think so it can mold/move anything but solid stone... seems about right.
That's not accurate at all. It was dangerous work, and people died, but those were typically accidents and not suicide attacks.
Here's the wikipedia for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapping
TL;dr- you dig a supported tunnel under the wall you want to take down, then you burn or demolish the supports. Tunnel collapse, wall collapse, everyone should have been out of the tunnel.
<Edit> Double post
"Before the development of explosives, sapping was the undermining of an enemy's fortifications, which would collapse when the sap's supports were removed. Later, explosives were placed surreptitiously in the undermining sap or mine, then detonated, as was done with 450 tons of high explosive in the First World War battle of Messines, the largest planned explosion until the 1945 Trinity atomic bomb test. "
From your own link.
Ergo- Before the development of explosives.... you had to remove the support. Usually you set fire to them. But, sometimes that didn't work, due to moisture. so you'd have to chop them down, manually, with axes. Suicide mission. it's even detailed in a movie recently... https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6931414/
1 hour 52 minutes into that movie. You'll see what I'm talking about.
not to mention cans of worms of. If you want to get that technical and detailed about sapping. It's never going to be an option anyways, as it takes a very long time to sap something.
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not all kamikaze pilots or suicide bombers die either. If you wondered.
I guess I confused you by using those as the terms/buzzwords. Perhaps I should have said "It's a highly risky and dangerous job, with a high mortality rate due to a lot of different possible outcomes and scenarios"
But then, I guess, D&D world, most DMs won't roll percentile dice for like, stale earth, or pockets of some sort of gas thats hazardous to breathe, etc. Or any other various problem sappers/miners encounter. Even simple ones like Den of posionous snakes. Spiders. random pocket of shallow earth over a pitfall/underwater pond or lake. etc.
Blank
I would agree with several of the above posters who effectively said "yes, but only if you have a support team to shovel out dirt and reinforce the ceiling with beams.
There is no skill even remotely like engineering is there? Should we assume that you need a dwarf or a rock gnome in the party to make this kind of thing work?
Skill with Mason's tools is the closest. Neither mining or sapping is a distinct skill, and you would assume there are experts in the field somewhere. But it's a topic for a DM if you want to go down highly specialized skill trees.
At this point in my gaming, not worth the time.
If the goal was to simply tunnel through to a spot underground, I'd rule it was possible. But I'd also rule that it would require either using support beams/panels/whatever--which would add to the time greatly--or using other spells to shore up the walls and ceiling. If not using magic, there would be ability checks to see if a cave-in happened (the cave-in would be guaranteed if using neither supports nor magic.)
Even if using magic to support the air pockets you make while tunneling, you still probably want to cast it from a bunch of scrolls. You're likely not going to be moving forward any faster than 10 feet per minute max, so depending on the spells used, and the distance to dig, you might just burn through all of your spell slots before you finish.
If the goal is to create a complete, free-standing tunnel from point A to point B, it's still possible, but going to require a lot more time, effort, and--unless you're using Wall of Stone or something similar--materials.
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Think : Andy DuFresne working on his tunnel in Shawshank Redemption
This.
As Wysperra said about the distinction preventing "going directly INTO a castle wall or directly THROUGH a wall of stone. Under and around is fair game."
With enough time and subterfuge, I think you should totally be able to steadily excavate a tunnel under the wall, as long as you went deep enough. I guess it's more realistic if the DM made you use timber and whatnot, but for the purposes of a creative use of the spell and just moving things along in a fantasy setting, I'd say it works. DM's will vary, of course.
With enough time and subterfuge, you could achieve this with a shovel, which is why I'm not a huge fan of this cantrip.