The shadow dancer has a spiked chain attack but the playable sub race do not have access to this weapon. Lore stated that all Shadar Kai were trained in the use of the spiked chain and should be proficient with it. The shadow dancer spiked chain attack is pretty powerfull. So why not make it a racial feat for Shadar Kai only available at lvl 4 it could be modeled like the revenant blade scimitar feat granting the use of said weapon. This has the player making a sacrifice to get this weapon and it's benefits at lvl 4 or later plus it is fluffy. Canidate for new errata maybe.
The only thing they change through errata in 5e are pretty minor wording changes. New content will not be added that way. It could be added in a future book, possibly along with the scorpion chain for drow in Eberron. The shadow dancer attack is too powerful for PCs, but I would be on board with a variant of it from a feat. Base weapon would be 2d4 piercing with heavy, 2 handed, and reach. Feat allows you to spend a bonus action to attempt a grapple or trip.
If you wish to homebrew the Spiked Chain, I expect that it would be 1d6 damage with reach and finesse.
It looks like the Shadow Dancer has a special ability that adds +1d6 damage to it when they are wielding it (and allows them to deal 4d10 necrotic damage).
As Unruly_Cow suggests, allowing a racial feat seems reasonable to master the weapon and be able to use a bonus action for a grapple/trip.
I'd say the plain vanilla spiked chain should just be a reskinned whip that deals piercing damage. If you want to make a feat to give them something along the lines of the shadow dancer's ability, I'd suggest the following (I'm using the whip's d4 instead of d6, and using d8 instead of d10 for the necrotic damage to keep it in line with cantrips, but you could change that):
Spiked Chain Master. You have mastered the fearsome spiked chain techniques of the Shadar-Kai Shadow Dancers. When you hit a creature with the spiked chain, you now do an additional 1d4 piercing damage (for a total of 2d4). Additionally, when you hit a creature with the spiked chain, you may use your bonus action to force the target to make a Dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity Modifier) or suffer one additional effect of your choice:
The target is grappled (escape DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity Modifier) if it is a Medium or smaller creature. Until the grapple ends, the target is restrained, and you can’t grapple another target.
I agree that sounds like a balanced build for a special weapon. The revenant blade also gives a +1 to AC while wielding it. Do you think adding something like that to the spiked chain feat would be fair too?
I agree that sounds like a balanced build for a special weapon. The revenant blade also give a +1 to AC while wielding it. Do you think adding something like that to rhe spiked chain feat would be fair too?
Personally, I wouldn't. Mechanically, you're already getting getting significantly more extra damage potential than the Revenant Blade. Conceptually, a spiky chain doesn't seem like it would be a particularly effective parrying weapon.
Thankyou for your imput. I homebrewed the feat and weapon action/stats. Hopefully the rotating DM quadrunal I am a part of will accept this until something official possibly comes out.
Sure thing. I edited the feat slightly to say you have to use your bonus action to impose one of the special effects. I didn't take multiattack into account when I first thought of this, and realized it would be ridiculously overpowered to allow a fighter with multiattack and action surge to deal 2d4 + 4d8 damage up to six times in a round.
A grapple that is 1) ranged, 2) performed with a bonus action, 3) imposes restrained, and 4) doesn't use a regular opposed check but instead sets a high static DC is honestly probably too much "special" stuff to hand out for the low price of a single feat (not to mention one that has two more bullet points of other cool stuff it can do). Just stopping at the "the target is grappled. until the grapple ends, you can't make attacks with this weapon against any target other than the one you have grappled" would be a little easier to swallow.
A grapple that is 1) ranged, 2) performed with a bonus action, 3) imposes restrained, and 4) doesn't use a regular opposed check but instead sets a high static DC is honestly probably too much "special" stuff to hand out for the low price of a single feat (not to mention one that has two more bullet points of other cool stuff it can do). Just stopping at the "the target is grappled. until the grapple ends, you can't make attacks with this weapon against any target other than the one you have grappled" would be a little easier to swallow.
Yeah, it was my intent that Spiked Chain Guy couldn't do anything else other than maintain the grapple with that weapon. I guess I should add something along the lines that you have to use one of your attacks each subsequent round to maintain it.
While that would drop the power of the grapple signifigantly for non-fighters, it still leaves it being "too special" in my book because that means that its a grapple that works differently than every other grapple in the game. Grapples generally do not require any sort of action by the grappler to "maintain," but instead charge the graplee with using their actions to attempt to escape.
My rule of thumb with homebrew is, it's fine to add additional content/options, but when you dabble with taking existing rules but making them work differently only for specific characters with specific feats... that's where confusion/imbalance is most likely to creep in. Most tables already have to flip the rule book open when it comes time to grapple, don't make that even more of a painful moment by invalidating the rules that they'll find when they do so.
While that would drop the power of the grapple signifigantly for non-fighters, it still leaves it being "too special" in my book because that means that its a grapple that works differently than every other grapple in the game. Grapples generally do not require any sort of action by the grappler to "maintain," but instead charge the graplee with using their actions to attempt to escape.
My rule of thumb with homebrew is, it's fine to add additional content/options, but when you dabble with taking existing rules but making them work differently only for specific characters with specific feats... that's where confusion/imbalance is most likely to creep in. Most tables already have to flip the rule book open when it comes time to grapple, don't make that even more of a painful moment by invalidating the rules that they'll find when they do so.
I understand your concerns, but is it really that complex? It's essentially an entangle spell against one target that uses a battlemaster-style DC instead of a spellcasting DC. I agree that the grapple language probably adds needless confusion- it should probably just say the target is restrained until they escape or you cease to maintain it.
It doesn't seem complex, because you're looking at it through your own eyes. What you've described so far holds very little resemblance to Entangle or any other retrained-imposing spell, nor does it have much in common with regular grappling, and its honestly pretty over-tuned if a player halfway optimizes and uses double chains. It lets the player to be a ranged grappler (unique) that is allowed to completely tank strength and do dex-based grappling (unique) and is able to lay out massive damage with advantage (normally, grapple builds have to restrain themselves if they're going to restrain their targets, and don't do much damage) while giving the grappled foe little or no ability to counterattack, or realistically break free .
Player: "I hit! *rolls*... 6 damage! Now I use my bonus to entangle him, he has to pass a DC 15 Dex save or be Grappled and Restrained. On his turn, he can spend his action repeating his DC 15 dex save to escape."
DM: Wait, a Dex save? Isn't escaping a grapple ordinarily an opposed Strength (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics) check, against your Strength (Athletics)?
Player: Yeah, but this is different, don't worry it's like Entangle not like regular grappling!
DM: Yeah... no. Entangle lets you end it with a Strength save, you're telling me that this is a Dex save... and he has disadvantage on all Dex saves, because you just restrained him! Plus you did this at 10 feet range, so he can't even choose not to escape and focus on attacking you, he can't reach you... this seems overpowered...
Player: No, don't worry, it isn't! I have to use one attack each round to maintain the grapple.
DM: You mean use your Action? I guess if you're giving up your whole Action just to maintain this then-
Player: No, not my Action, just one attack during the Attack action! Because I'm a fighter and have multiple attacks, I still get other attacks, but they can't be using my chain, they have to be with a weapon in my other hand.
DM: You mean your other chain you hold in your offhand? How is that a disadvantage, I see on this feat that when you hit him with that chain (which you'll be doing with advantage, because he's restrained), you can use a bonus to impose additional necrotic damage... so you aren't really giving up any DPS at all!
The shadow dancer has a spiked chain attack but the playable sub race do not have access to this weapon. Lore stated that all Shadar Kai were trained in the use of the spiked chain and should be proficient with it. The shadow dancer spiked chain attack is pretty powerfull. So why not make it a racial feat for Shadar Kai only available at lvl 4 it could be modeled like the revenant blade scimitar feat granting the use of said weapon. This has the player making a sacrifice to get this weapon and it's benefits at lvl 4 or later plus it is fluffy. Canidate for new errata maybe.
The only thing they change through errata in 5e are pretty minor wording changes. New content will not be added that way. It could be added in a future book, possibly along with the scorpion chain for drow in Eberron. The shadow dancer attack is too powerful for PCs, but I would be on board with a variant of it from a feat. Base weapon would be 2d4 piercing with heavy, 2 handed, and reach. Feat allows you to spend a bonus action to attempt a grapple or trip.
If you wish to homebrew the Spiked Chain, I expect that it would be 1d6 damage with reach and finesse.
It looks like the Shadow Dancer has a special ability that adds +1d6 damage to it when they are wielding it (and allows them to deal 4d10 necrotic damage).
As Unruly_Cow suggests, allowing a racial feat seems reasonable to master the weapon and be able to use a bonus action for a grapple/trip.
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I'd say the plain vanilla spiked chain should just be a reskinned whip that deals piercing damage. If you want to make a feat to give them something along the lines of the shadow dancer's ability, I'd suggest the following (I'm using the whip's d4 instead of d6, and using d8 instead of d10 for the necrotic damage to keep it in line with cantrips, but you could change that):
Spiked Chain Master. You have mastered the fearsome spiked chain techniques of the Shadar-Kai Shadow Dancers. When you hit a creature with the spiked chain, you now do an additional 1d4 piercing damage (for a total of 2d4). Additionally, when you hit a creature with the spiked chain, you may use your bonus action to force the target to make a Dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity Modifier) or suffer one additional effect of your choice:
I agree that sounds like a balanced build for a special weapon. The revenant blade also gives a +1 to AC while wielding it. Do you think adding something like that to the spiked chain feat would be fair too?
Personally, I wouldn't. Mechanically, you're already getting getting significantly more extra damage potential than the Revenant Blade. Conceptually, a spiky chain doesn't seem like it would be a particularly effective parrying weapon.
Thankyou for your imput. I homebrewed the feat and weapon action/stats. Hopefully the rotating DM quadrunal I am a part of will accept this until something official possibly comes out.
Sure thing. I edited the feat slightly to say you have to use your bonus action to impose one of the special effects. I didn't take multiattack into account when I first thought of this, and realized it would be ridiculously overpowered to allow a fighter with multiattack and action surge to deal 2d4 + 4d8 damage up to six times in a round.
A grapple that is 1) ranged, 2) performed with a bonus action, 3) imposes restrained, and 4) doesn't use a regular opposed check but instead sets a high static DC is honestly probably too much "special" stuff to hand out for the low price of a single feat (not to mention one that has two more bullet points of other cool stuff it can do). Just stopping at the "the target is grappled. until the grapple ends, you can't make attacks with this weapon against any target other than the one you have grappled" would be a little easier to swallow.
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Yeah, it was my intent that Spiked Chain Guy couldn't do anything else other than maintain the grapple with that weapon. I guess I should add something along the lines that you have to use one of your attacks each subsequent round to maintain it.
I agree.
While that would drop the power of the grapple signifigantly for non-fighters, it still leaves it being "too special" in my book because that means that its a grapple that works differently than every other grapple in the game. Grapples generally do not require any sort of action by the grappler to "maintain," but instead charge the graplee with using their actions to attempt to escape.
My rule of thumb with homebrew is, it's fine to add additional content/options, but when you dabble with taking existing rules but making them work differently only for specific characters with specific feats... that's where confusion/imbalance is most likely to creep in. Most tables already have to flip the rule book open when it comes time to grapple, don't make that even more of a painful moment by invalidating the rules that they'll find when they do so.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I understand your concerns, but is it really that complex? It's essentially an entangle spell against one target that uses a battlemaster-style DC instead of a spellcasting DC. I agree that the grapple language probably adds needless confusion- it should probably just say the target is restrained until they escape or you cease to maintain it.
It doesn't seem complex, because you're looking at it through your own eyes. What you've described so far holds very little resemblance to Entangle or any other retrained-imposing spell, nor does it have much in common with regular grappling, and its honestly pretty over-tuned if a player halfway optimizes and uses double chains. It lets the player to be a ranged grappler (unique) that is allowed to completely tank strength and do dex-based grappling (unique) and is able to lay out massive damage with advantage (normally, grapple builds have to restrain themselves if they're going to restrain their targets, and don't do much damage) while giving the grappled foe little or no ability to counterattack, or realistically break free .
Player: "I hit! *rolls*... 6 damage! Now I use my bonus to entangle him, he has to pass a DC 15 Dex save or be Grappled and Restrained. On his turn, he can spend his action repeating his DC 15 dex save to escape."
DM: Wait, a Dex save? Isn't escaping a grapple ordinarily an opposed Strength (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics) check, against your Strength (Athletics)?
Player: Yeah, but this is different, don't worry it's like Entangle not like regular grappling!
DM: Yeah... no. Entangle lets you end it with a Strength save, you're telling me that this is a Dex save... and he has disadvantage on all Dex saves, because you just restrained him! Plus you did this at 10 feet range, so he can't even choose not to escape and focus on attacking you, he can't reach you... this seems overpowered...
Player: No, don't worry, it isn't! I have to use one attack each round to maintain the grapple.
DM: You mean use your Action? I guess if you're giving up your whole Action just to maintain this then-
Player: No, not my Action, just one attack during the Attack action! Because I'm a fighter and have multiple attacks, I still get other attacks, but they can't be using my chain, they have to be with a weapon in my other hand.
DM: You mean your other chain you hold in your offhand? How is that a disadvantage, I see on this feat that when you hit him with that chain (which you'll be doing with advantage, because he's restrained), you can use a bonus to impose additional necrotic damage... so you aren't really giving up any DPS at all!
Player: Yeah, but I spent a feat to do this!
DM: Where'd you find this feat?
Player: Ummm… its homebrew?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.