The commoner stat line is 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10. That is the average person that does the things that you talked about. The 13,13,13,12,12,12 person (plus racials) is still a highly skilled person who would adventure, they are simply more of a Jack of all trades type as opposed to a specialist. I actually built a half-elf bard off those stats as a thought exercise and he still came out as 12, 14, 14, 12,12, 15. You could bard x, hexblade1 that stat line fairly easily. You'd only be a +2 to start, but could go split ASI at 5 (assuming that hexblade was first or second level), resilient con at 9, Asi at 13 and 17, and still have an open feat if you got to 20. Meanwhile, you have a +1 (at least to all of your skills), get Jack of all Trades and expertise to really buff those skills, two skill proficiencies from half-elf, two from background, and three from class whether you start with 2 from warlock and multi into bard for the third or get all of them up front with bard. Eventually, you'll have up to 4 skills with expertise at double proficiency, at least three more at normal proficiency, and the rest at half proficiency with a +1 minimum modifier from abilities.
That sounds like a pretty successful adventurer to me. Perhaps not as talented in any one area as some others (+3 max from arrays or other point buys, or +4 max from rolls) but not lacking in any area once the medium armor comes on line.
So does the point-buy system affect the health of a character or, do you still have to roll for that. Asking because I have a friend who says he used the point-buy system for his health and it confused me, because I always thought you rolled for your health though???
So does the point-buy system affect the health of a character or, do you still have to roll for that. Asking because I have a friend who says he used the point-buy system for his health and it confused me, because I always thought you rolled for your health though???
You roll for HP and then add Con modifier per level. The first character level is always max roll and then every other level is rolled (or fixed if you use that method - which is on by default). It's probably they're using the fixed hp method - which can be changed in the Home section of the character editor.
So does the point-buy system affect the health of a character or, do you still have to roll for that. Asking because I have a friend who says he used the point-buy system for his health and it confused me, because I always thought you rolled for your health though???
I'm assuming by "health" you mean "maximum Hit Points". Your max HP at any given level is determined by two things. Your Constitution score and the size of your Hit Die as determined by your class(es). Point-buy would help determine what your Constitution score is, but it has no influence after you determine what your six ability scores are.
Rolling fun for one shots. If you plan to run a campaign then point but will produce a balanced party who are all fairly equal in strengths. Having a 18 at level 1 just makes strong character, so stick to standard array, especially if using feats. Makes it a real choice between improving stats and choosing a feat. With Tasha put bonus where you like rule then you can always get what you want.
Does work best for more experienced players as they will think about things like sticking 17 in a stat so they can use a feat bonus to boost at level 4 etc
I also use fixed HP for campaigns, full and first and rounded up average as they level. This stops me having to max montser HP, and not have sad face of player having rolled a 1. I have played games where DM just assigned max HP every level, buy it made encounters to easy for players.
While I like the idea of point buy so everyone can be even on stats. I think 27 is a bit low and doesn't allow higher than 15 and lower than 8.
I think I read the average of 4d6 drop lowest is 12.24
so 6 stats could be 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13. which would make an pretty average person. Average people normally don't become adventurers or do heroic things, they become book keepers, merchants, work at a bar.
I agree that the 27 and 8,15 limits are a bit off. I think they were designed with the idea in mind that players would be taking ~10 points worth of ASI over the course of their career rather than taking a handful of feats, or that at best they'd take a mix and/or include somehalf-feats, etc. versus 5 top of the line Feats as the standard model of character growth. IMHO base attributes are more important at lower levels than high as well, so I do prefer to front load the attributes a bit more at character development, so players don't have to worry they've given up those attribute totals in order to have feats and can feel more powerful at low levels as well. I am having trouble calculating exatly how many points should be my standard though.
I don't know where the all 10's for commoners came from though; it used to be three 10's and three 11's. Yeah, the 27 points in 3e was considered to be the 'Elite' array. I think it might have been 28 points in pathfinder as paragon array? So it's "adventurer-level" stats, but comparing it to what are apperently the average rolls of 4d6-lowest, I think it's still a bit short.
From what I can scrounge from the net, An average array rolled from 4d6-lowest would be, depending on how you do your rounding, either:
(8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15) - All rounded down: 25 points - the 3e standard values --> the +2 points in 5e making it (8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15)
(9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16) - Rounded as normal: 31 points - Averages to 1 point + six 13's
The 14 doesn't deserve it and the 8 and 10 could go either way. I think the upper limit on 3e charts was 32 points and the standard array in 4e was 33 points; So i am thinking somewhere between 30 and 35 points is the appropriate value to use.
On the other hand, all of these averages are bases on a standard roll 4d6 minus the lowest. It doesn't account for the effect of modifiers to that such as reroll a 1 or reroll all 1's - which I do see in use; so it might be reasonable afterall to lean more into the 30's than not such as the 35 (or a lucky 36?) standard as suggested by the other poster above. This would add +9 to the standard array which is just enough to add a +1 to the 5 scores that aren't the 8 almost as if everyone were using the standard human bonus in addition to their normal stats:
(8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16) - This would account for at least 5 of the sacrificed ASI's from switching to feats at every 4 levels in place of ASI's. Even half- feats would only bring you back to 10, and I still forsee more full-feats being selected for.
Personally, I prefer point buy or standard array over rolling any day of the week. Case in point, we just started a new campaign and our DM let us choose point buy or rolling for stats, one guy apparently (no one was watching him but he seems legit so I doubt he's lying) rolled an 18, 17, 15, 14, 12, 10 for his stats, another person rolled 13,12,12,9,7,7 and the rest of us went point buy.
We're starting at lvl 1, meaning the guy who rolled well is going to start with a 20 and 18 in his two best stats at lvl 1. Meanwhile, the person who rolled crappy is going to start with a 15 and 13 in their best stats. The rest of us will likely be at 17,16 or 17,15 for our two best stats. Now we're going to have an unbalanced campaign starting at lvl 1 onward. The point buy people won't get a 20 in our stats until lvl 8, the poor person who rolled crappy will get it lvl 12? and the one guy gets capped at 20 at lvl 1. When I heard him say his roll I just shook my head, and said "ya this is why I don't roll, I personally don't want to feel overpowered compared to others" but apparently he had no problem feeling that way, and DM just wants to be nice to everyone.
I understand those pains but try not to let it get to you. It is very pronounced at low levels but does get better with time as both proficiency bonus increases and everyone else closes the gap in their primary attribute.
This is a problem that feels even worse if the player that rolled well then jumps in anytime someone else is asked to, or requests to, make a skill/ability check. I have even seen a player that rolled incredibly well decide they want to play a different character and then re-use their super lucky rolled stats for the new character, rather than roll new stats for the new character.
When coming up with or exploring character builds I like to use Point Buy because you know what you are going to get. But when it comes to making a character to play I generally prefer to roll for stats, unless I want to play a very MAD build. On average you get a total stat baseline of ~73.45 with rolled stats compared to the total stat baseline of 72 for the standard array, or the total stat baseline of 69-75 with point buy (depending on how you spend points). Also, with rolled stats you have a ~56.75% chance of rolling at least one 16 or higher. So while it is common to roll worse than what you could get via point buy, you will more often roll better.
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The commoner stat line is 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10. That is the average person that does the things that you talked about. The 13,13,13,12,12,12 person (plus racials) is still a highly skilled person who would adventure, they are simply more of a Jack of all trades type as opposed to a specialist. I actually built a half-elf bard off those stats as a thought exercise and he still came out as 12, 14, 14, 12,12, 15. You could bard x, hexblade1 that stat line fairly easily. You'd only be a +2 to start, but could go split ASI at 5 (assuming that hexblade was first or second level), resilient con at 9, Asi at 13 and 17, and still have an open feat if you got to 20. Meanwhile, you have a +1 (at least to all of your skills), get Jack of all Trades and expertise to really buff those skills, two skill proficiencies from half-elf, two from background, and three from class whether you start with 2 from warlock and multi into bard for the third or get all of them up front with bard. Eventually, you'll have up to 4 skills with expertise at double proficiency, at least three more at normal proficiency, and the rest at half proficiency with a +1 minimum modifier from abilities.
That sounds like a pretty successful adventurer to me. Perhaps not as talented in any one area as some others (+3 max from arrays or other point buys, or +4 max from rolls) but not lacking in any area once the medium armor comes on line.
So does the point-buy system affect the health of a character or, do you still have to roll for that. Asking because I have a friend who says he used the point-buy system for his health and it confused me, because I always thought you rolled for your health though???
You roll for HP and then add Con modifier per level. The first character level is always max roll and then every other level is rolled (or fixed if you use that method - which is on by default). It's probably they're using the fixed hp method - which can be changed in the Home section of the character editor.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I'm assuming by "health" you mean "maximum Hit Points". Your max HP at any given level is determined by two things. Your Constitution score and the size of your Hit Die as determined by your class(es). Point-buy would help determine what your Constitution score is, but it has no influence after you determine what your six ability scores are.
Rolling fun for one shots. If you plan to run a campaign then point but will produce a balanced party who are all fairly equal in strengths. Having a 18 at level 1 just makes strong character, so stick to standard array, especially if using feats. Makes it a real choice between improving stats and choosing a feat. With Tasha put bonus where you like rule then you can always get what you want.
Does work best for more experienced players as they will think about things like sticking 17 in a stat so they can use a feat bonus to boost at level 4 etc
I also use fixed HP for campaigns, full and first and rounded up average as they level. This stops me having to max montser HP, and not have sad face of player having rolled a 1. I have played games where DM just assigned max HP every level, buy it made encounters to easy for players.
I agree that the 27 and 8,15 limits are a bit off. I think they were designed with the idea in mind that players would be taking ~10 points worth of ASI over the course of their career rather than taking a handful of feats, or that at best they'd take a mix and/or include somehalf-feats, etc. versus 5 top of the line Feats as the standard model of character growth. IMHO base attributes are more important at lower levels than high as well, so I do prefer to front load the attributes a bit more at character development, so players don't have to worry they've given up those attribute totals in order to have feats and can feel more powerful at low levels as well. I am having trouble calculating exatly how many points should be my standard though.
I don't know where the all 10's for commoners came from though; it used to be three 10's and three 11's. Yeah, the 27 points in 3e was considered to be the 'Elite' array. I think it might have been 28 points in pathfinder as paragon array? So it's "adventurer-level" stats, but comparing it to what are apperently the average rolls of 4d6-lowest, I think it's still a bit short.
From what I can scrounge from the net, An average array rolled from 4d6-lowest would be, depending on how you do your rounding, either:
(8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15) - All rounded down: 25 points - the 3e standard values --> the +2 points in 5e making it (8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15)
(9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16) - Rounded as normal: 31 points - Averages to 1 point + six 13's
(9, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16) - All rounded up: 34 points -
The 14 doesn't deserve it and the 8 and 10 could go either way. I think the upper limit on 3e charts was 32 points and the standard array in 4e was 33 points; So i am thinking somewhere between 30 and 35 points is the appropriate value to use.
On the other hand, all of these averages are bases on a standard roll 4d6 minus the lowest. It doesn't account for the effect of modifiers to that such as reroll a 1 or reroll all 1's - which I do see in use; so it might be reasonable afterall to lean more into the 30's than not such as the 35 (or a lucky 36?) standard as suggested by the other poster above. This would add +9 to the standard array which is just enough to add a +1 to the 5 scores that aren't the 8 almost as if everyone were using the standard human bonus in addition to their normal stats:
(8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16) - This would account for at least 5 of the sacrificed ASI's from switching to feats at every 4 levels in place of ASI's. Even half- feats would only bring you back to 10, and I still forsee more full-feats being selected for.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Deleted
Personally, I prefer point buy or standard array over rolling any day of the week. Case in point, we just started a new campaign and our DM let us choose point buy or rolling for stats, one guy apparently (no one was watching him but he seems legit so I doubt he's lying) rolled an 18, 17, 15, 14, 12, 10 for his stats, another person rolled 13,12,12,9,7,7 and the rest of us went point buy.
We're starting at lvl 1, meaning the guy who rolled well is going to start with a 20 and 18 in his two best stats at lvl 1. Meanwhile, the person who rolled crappy is going to start with a 15 and 13 in their best stats. The rest of us will likely be at 17,16 or 17,15 for our two best stats. Now we're going to have an unbalanced campaign starting at lvl 1 onward. The point buy people won't get a 20 in our stats until lvl 8, the poor person who rolled crappy will get it lvl 12? and the one guy gets capped at 20 at lvl 1. When I heard him say his roll I just shook my head, and said "ya this is why I don't roll, I personally don't want to feel overpowered compared to others" but apparently he had no problem feeling that way, and DM just wants to be nice to everyone.
Sigh.
I understand those pains but try not to let it get to you. It is very pronounced at low levels but does get better with time as both proficiency bonus increases and everyone else closes the gap in their primary attribute.
This is a problem that feels even worse if the player that rolled well then jumps in anytime someone else is asked to, or requests to, make a skill/ability check. I have even seen a player that rolled incredibly well decide they want to play a different character and then re-use their super lucky rolled stats for the new character, rather than roll new stats for the new character.
When coming up with or exploring character builds I like to use Point Buy because you know what you are going to get. But when it comes to making a character to play I generally prefer to roll for stats, unless I want to play a very MAD build. On average you get a total stat baseline of ~73.45 with rolled stats compared to the total stat baseline of 72 for the standard array, or the total stat baseline of 69-75 with point buy (depending on how you spend points). Also, with rolled stats you have a ~56.75% chance of rolling at least one 16 or higher. So while it is common to roll worse than what you could get via point buy, you will more often roll better.