So the background of this problem is that one of the players in my group is interprets this sections as he needs to roll a con save each turn to resist the infernal wound. The player failed the con save when the Tail attack hit. I have dyslexia and its hard to understand for me this text and I think that as soon as the charakter is inflicted with the Infernal wound he needs healing or a Medicine check of 12(wisdom) to close it? Am i right in understanging that this is a damage over time effekt or is it a con save each of the players turns?
Tail: Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d8 + 6) piercing damage. If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Points at the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this Attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6). Any creature can take an Action to Stanch the wound with a successful DC 12 Wisdom (Medicine) check. The wound also closes if the target receives magical Healing.
So the background of this problem is that one of the players in my group is interprets this sections as he needs to roll a con save each turn to resist the infernal wound. The player failed the con save when the Tail attack hit. I have dyslexia and its hard to understand for me this text and I think that as soon as the charakter is inflicted with the Infernal wound he needs healing or a Medicine check of 12(wisdom) to close it? Am i right in understanging that this is a damage over time effekt or is it a con save each of the players turns?
Tail: Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d8 + 6) piercing damage. If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Points at the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this Attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6). Any creature can take an Action to Stanch the wound with a successful DC 12 Wisdom (Medicine) check. The wound also closes if the target receives magical Healing.
The player only makes a Con save if they are hit by the tail and are not wounded. In general, you can resolve a hit by the tail with wound tokens, so imagine a pile of wound tokens next to the player that can be size 0 (no tokens in the pile). Then it works like this:
When the player is hit, if the player has no wound tokens, make a Con save DC 17. On a failure, gain 1 wound token.
When the player is hit, if the player has 1 or more wound tokens, add a wound token, no save.
When the player's turn starts, the player suffers 3d6 damage per token: 2 tokens = 6d6 damage, 3 tokens = 9d6, and so on. This damage is untyped.
As an action, at presumably touch range, anyone can make a DC 12 Medicine check on a target creature to set the wound token pile to 0.
Likewise, magical healing of any sort sets the wound token pile to 0 for the healed creature.
The text you're using is from the Horned Devil, one of only 3 monsters in the game that can deal untyped damage. The other two are the Bearded Devil (which uses identical wording) and the Stirge (which uses distinct wording).
I agree that the wording indicates that the saving throw is made only once, when the target has no Infernal Wound.
If there is more than one devil, then each might have its own stack, based on the simple wording of "each time the devil..." - this just means each devil triggers a saving throw when they don't have their own stack on the target, and each devil's stack requires a separate Medicine or magical healing to remove.
If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Pointsat the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound.
After the target is hit he rolls a con save "at the start of each of his turns."
Not once and done. Every round there after until the wound is dealt with.
Its also done for each and every tail hit the target takes. So if they are hit three times its three different wounds and three different rolls.
If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Pointsat the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound.
After the target is hit he rolls a con save "at the start of each of his turns."
This is incorrect. It's one save. It's only the damage that happens at the start of each of its turns.
If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Pointsat the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound.
After the target is hit he rolls a con save "at the start of each of his turns."
This is incorrect. It's one save. It's only the damage that happens at the start of each of its turn
i don’t disagree, but I do see where the confusion comes from. It could be more clearly stated as “Succeed on a save or suffer X condition. X condition has these effects. Use an action to do Y Check to remove X condition.”
If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Pointsat the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound.
After the target is hit he rolls a con save "at the start of each of his turns."
This is incorrect. It's one save. It's only the damage that happens at the start of each of its turn
i don’t disagree, but I do see where the confusion comes from. It could be more clearly stated as “Succeed on a save or suffer X condition. X condition has these effects. Use an action to do Y Check to remove X condition.”
I definitely agree that it could be more clearly stated, but I think it's worth pointing out that the actual ability follows your pattern almost to a T:
"[S]ucceed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) hit points at the start of each of its turns due to an infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6). Any creature can take an action to stanch the wound with a successful DC 12 Wisdom (Medicine) check. The wound also closes if the target receives magical healing."
Yeah, but the trouble is the “this or that at the start of each of your turns” construction. It would be more easily understood as “this or that” and then a further sentence saying what “that” does on each turn, so you can more easily tell if the “on the start of each of your turns” applies only to “that” or applies to both. It should be a design goal to avoid “eats shoot and leaves” sentences.
The way i read it its one saving throw. The way to stop an Infernal Wound is not by saving against it but from a Wisdom (Medecine) check or magical healing.
If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Pointsat the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound.
After the target is hit he rolls a con save "at the start of each of his turns."
This is incorrect. It's one save. It's only the damage that happens at the start of each of its turn
i don’t disagree, but I do see where the confusion comes from. It could be more clearly stated as “Succeed on a save or suffer X condition. X condition has these effects. Use an action to do Y Check to remove X condition.”
If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Pointsat the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound.
After the target is hit he rolls a con save "at the start of each of his turns."
This is incorrect. It's one save. It's only the damage that happens at the start of each of its turn
i don’t disagree, but I do see where the confusion comes from. It could be more clearly stated as “Succeed on a save or suffer X condition. X condition has these effects. Use an action to do Y Check to remove X condition.”
Gah! We are playing D&D not Magic the Gathering.
And yet unclear wording still makes unclear rules, no matter which game you play.
Unfortunately, I can read it either way - either requiring one con save when the wound is first received or requiring a con save every turn to see if the wound inflicts additional damage.
" it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Points at the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this Attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6).
OR
" it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Pointsat the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this Attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6)."
It could be trying to say - succeed on the save or lose 3d6 hit points every turn at the start of your turn ... or at the start of each of its turns, succeed on the save or lose 3d6 hit points.
The second is a more awkward interpretation since if that was intended it should have been more clearly worded as "At the start of each of its turns, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Points due to an Infernalwound." or the "at the start of each of its turns" could have been placed between commas to separate it from the rest of the clause.
So I would lean toward the first interpretation (one save at the beginning) being the intended effect but I could see different DMs ruling differently just based on the wording.
The word "or" is splitting the two halves of the sentence.
Other abilities have been written which start with "at the start of each of its turns it must make a saving throw..."
And that does nothing for the clarity of this sentence. I don't know what you were taught about conjunctions, but conjunction junction says that they hook up words and phrases and clauses. They don't just split two "halves" of sentences.
The word "or" is splitting the two halves of the sentence.
Other abilities have been written which start with "at the start of each of its turns it must make a saving throw..."
And that does nothing for the clarity of this sentence. I don't know what you were taught about conjunctions, but conjunction junction says that they hook up words and phrases and clauses. They don't just split two "halves" of sentences.
Or is separating the two alternatives. One: The character passes the saving throw. Two: failed save has the infernal wound and conditions for its continuation, expansion, or its removal.
Sure, that's a possibility, but that sentence construction doesn't require that, so implying that it does is misunderstanding English. "Chicken or beef with broccoli" is a phrasing that allows you to get chicken with broccoli.
Sure, that's a possibility, but that sentence construction doesn't require that, so implying that it does is misunderstanding English. "Chicken or beef with broccoli" is a phrasing that allows you to get chicken with broccoli.
You forgot the comma. Chicken or beef, with broccoli. That is how you get broccoli with either. Punctuation is important.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So the background of this problem is that one of the players in my group is interprets this sections as he needs to roll a con save each turn to resist the infernal wound. The player failed the con save when the Tail attack hit. I have dyslexia and its hard to understand for me this text and I think that as soon as the charakter is inflicted with the Infernal wound he needs healing or a Medicine check of 12(wisdom) to close it? Am i right in understanging that this is a damage over time effekt or is it a con save each of the players turns?
Tail: Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d8 + 6) piercing damage. If the target is a creature other than an Undead or a Construct, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Points at the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this Attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6). Any creature can take an Action to Stanch the wound with a successful DC 12 Wisdom (Medicine) check. The wound also closes if the target receives magical Healing.
As far as I can tell the affected character needs to make a saving throw on each round until the wound is taken care of.
Luckily the wound does not need magic healing to be taken care of,.just a normal medicine check.
The player only makes a Con save if they are hit by the tail and are not wounded. In general, you can resolve a hit by the tail with wound tokens, so imagine a pile of wound tokens next to the player that can be size 0 (no tokens in the pile). Then it works like this:
The text you're using is from the Horned Devil, one of only 3 monsters in the game that can deal untyped damage. The other two are the Bearded Devil (which uses identical wording) and the Stirge (which uses distinct wording).
I agree that the wording indicates that the saving throw is made only once, when the target has no Infernal Wound.
If there is more than one devil, then each might have its own stack, based on the simple wording of "each time the devil..." - this just means each devil triggers a saving throw when they don't have their own stack on the target, and each devil's stack requires a separate Medicine or magical healing to remove.
After the target is hit he rolls a con save "at the start of each of his turns."
Not once and done. Every round there after until the wound is dealt with.
Its also done for each and every tail hit the target takes. So if they are hit three times its three different wounds and three different rolls.
This is incorrect. It's one save. It's only the damage that happens at the start of each of its turns.
This is also incorrect. Subsequent hits increase the damage taken at the start of the turn by the existing wound. This is made very clear by the text.
i don’t disagree, but I do see where the confusion comes from. It could be more clearly stated as “Succeed on a save or suffer X condition. X condition has these effects. Use an action to do Y Check to remove X condition.”
I definitely agree that it could be more clearly stated, but I think it's worth pointing out that the actual ability follows your pattern almost to a T:
"[S]ucceed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) hit points at the start of each of its turns due to an infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6). Any creature can take an action to stanch the wound with a successful DC 12 Wisdom (Medicine) check. The wound also closes if the target receives magical healing."
Yeah, but the trouble is the “this or that at the start of each of your turns” construction. It would be more easily understood as “this or that” and then a further sentence saying what “that” does on each turn, so you can more easily tell if the “on the start of each of your turns” applies only to “that” or applies to both. It should be a design goal to avoid “eats shoot and leaves” sentences.
The way i read it its one saving throw. The way to stop an Infernal Wound is not by saving against it but from a Wisdom (Medecine) check or magical healing.
After hearing the arguments I can agree its only one saving throw per wound with a continuing damage until fixed.
Another example of multiple authors, cut and paste writing and auto correct proof reading.
Gah! We are playing D&D not Magic the Gathering.
And yet unclear wording still makes unclear rules, no matter which game you play.
Unfortunately, I can read it either way - either requiring one con save when the wound is first received or requiring a con save every turn to see if the wound inflicts additional damage.
" it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Points at the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this Attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6).
OR
" it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Points at the start of each of its turns due to an Infernal wound. Each time the devil hits the wounded target with this Attack, the damage dealt by the wound increases by 10 (3d6)."
It could be trying to say - succeed on the save or lose 3d6 hit points every turn at the start of your turn ... or at the start of each of its turns, succeed on the save or lose 3d6 hit points.
The second is a more awkward interpretation since if that was intended it should have been more clearly worded as "At the start of each of its turns, it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or lose 10 (3d6) Hit Points due to an Infernal wound." or the "at the start of each of its turns" could have been placed between commas to separate it from the rest of the clause.
So I would lean toward the first interpretation (one save at the beginning) being the intended effect but I could see different DMs ruling differently just based on the wording.
It is a special wound and should have a special damage.
The word "or" is splitting the two halves of the sentence.
Other abilities have been written which start with "at the start of each of its turns it must make a saving throw..."
And that does nothing for the clarity of this sentence. I don't know what you were taught about conjunctions, but conjunction junction says that they hook up words and phrases and clauses. They don't just split two "halves" of sentences.
Or is separating the two alternatives. One: The character passes the saving throw. Two: failed save has the infernal wound and conditions for its continuation, expansion, or its removal.
Sure, that's a possibility, but that sentence construction doesn't require that, so implying that it does is misunderstanding English. "Chicken or beef with broccoli" is a phrasing that allows you to get chicken with broccoli.
You forgot the comma. Chicken or beef, with broccoli. That is how you get broccoli with either. Punctuation is important.