Just wait until that owl familiar starts breathing fire with dragon’s breath. It’s just a fact of the game. Arcane tricksters in particular are going to use the owl familiar to get them advantage for sneak attack. If it becomes a hassle for the enemy, shoot the owl.
Why should a target have to waste a turn for something that probably couldn't actually "disadvantage it"? Heh.
If the number you need to roll on a d20 is 19 then you have a 90% chance of missing. Your probability of missing is 0.9. Your probability of missing with advantage is 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81. This is approximately equivalent to +2, since an 80% chance of missing is the same as needing a total of 17 (d20+modifiers)
edit. I think I got something wrong here. Give me a minute to fix it
edit 2. Ok I think that’s what I was trying to say.
Hah I am the same way, but the dice talk is so fun! Sorry I'm so long winded.
I think the reason you're off a little (and so am I) but in your case it's that when you have d20+ modifiers the % against 19 changes based on whatever the modifier is.
My case was I kept confusing myself on when to include the "apparent advantage" and I was rounding up which doesn't work on a dice. You either reach the next whole value or you don't.
Just wait until that owl familiar starts breathing fire with dragon’s breath. It’s just a fact of the game. Arcane tricksters in particular are going to use the owl familiar to get them advantage for sneak attack. If it becomes a hassle for the enemy, shoot the owl.
Why should a target have to waste a turn for something that probably couldn't actually "disadvantage it"? Heh.
Just wait until that owl familiar starts breathing fire with dragon’s breath. It’s just a fact of the game. Arcane tricksters in particular are going to use the owl familiar to get them advantage for sneak attack. If it becomes a hassle for the enemy, shoot the owl.
Why should a target have to waste a turn for something that probably couldn't actually "disadvantage it"? Heh.
Sometimes it just be like that.
Sure but I think after a long winded discussion on my part it comes down to some reasonable alternatives.
I still stand by the idea of a CON save for concentration and a DEX save for if the helper disengages.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Just wait until that owl familiar starts breathing fire with dragon’s breath. It’s just a fact of the game. Arcane tricksters in particular are going to use the owl familiar to get them advantage for sneak attack. If it becomes a hassle for the enemy, shoot the owl.
Why should a target have to waste a turn for something that probably couldn't actually "disadvantage it"? Heh.
Sometimes it just be like that.
Sure but I think after a long winded discussion on my part it comes down to some reasonable alternatives.
I still stand by the idea of a CON save for concentration and a DEX save for if the helper disengages.
Adding saves will bog the game in a manner, compared to a Wizard getting help from a Familiar. Since the advantage D20 is rolled at the same time, from playing in games the helping Owl isn't a big issue and remember if the PC's can do it the NPC's can as well.
Just wait until that owl familiar starts breathing fire with dragon’s breath. It’s just a fact of the game. Arcane tricksters in particular are going to use the owl familiar to get them advantage for sneak attack. If it becomes a hassle for the enemy, shoot the owl.
Why should a target have to waste a turn for something that probably couldn't actually "disadvantage it"? Heh.
Sometimes it just be like that.
Sure but I think after a long winded discussion on my part it comes down to some reasonable alternatives.
I still stand by the idea of a CON save for concentration and a DEX save for if the helper disengages.
Adding saves will bog the game in a manner, compared to a Wizard getting help from a Familiar. Since the advantage D20 is rolled at the same time, from playing in games the helping Owl isn't a big issue and remember if the PC's can do it the NPC's can as well.
Thanks, I just don't know how much it really bogs down a game, it seems like of all the rolls and other things going on it is the lesser of the problems and that it will help balance the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Gives advantage on ability checks. DM’s can decide if Help is appropriate for the ability check being made.
Gives advantage on first attack that a designated ally makes before familiar’s next turn.
What Help can’t do:
Can’t help with saving throws.
What does advantage do in combat:
If you have a good chance to hit, it helps quite a bit. The equivalent of +5.
If you have very small chance of hitting, it helps less. If you had 30% chance, it’s about the same as +4. 20% chance, +3. 10%, +2. 5%,+1.
Doubles the chance of a critical hit.
Eliminates disadvantage.
Allows a Rogue to use Sneak Attack.
A familiar can give the caster, in effect, an extra Help action. However, the familiar is fragile, so it won’t be able to do this every turn in every combat.
A caster can gain advantage in other ways. Is a familiar just a different way to get advantage or is it too easy of a way?
Does this sum up the question in a reasonable way?
The way I see it, a familiar can reliably give the caster advantage once per combat. After that, use of the familiar may cause the enemy to target it. If it is killed, the caster is out 10gp and a short rest. In an adventure where either gold or short rests are in short supply, this could be costly. I see familiars as a nice perk for the classes and feats that allow you to have one. If a DM allows it to be used in a way that is broken, that’s on the DM, not the rules.
My house rule on this is that if someone uses the help action then they can't move afterwards. Justification being that coordinating actions restricts your movement to be at the right place at the right time. So, familiars can help with attacks, but are very likely to be messed up after. Owls are still good, but not so far beyond all other options as to be the only choice.
Also in my world using dragon's breath counts as a sort of attack because clearly it is. No, I don't care about the "attack = attack roll" ruling.
1) 6 seconds is much too long a time for a target to be disadvantaged by a bird that flew off 6 seconds ago...what'd it do claw your eyes out or drop acid in your face? how does a bird fluttering in your face for an (assuming instantaneous) action, then flying 30 feet away, affect you for when a player with a much lower initiative roll goes last and can be safely said to be at the end of the round. That's a full 6 seconds. Not "limited in scope".
You're making a lot of assumptions here. Actions, movement and turns don't have defined durations. The Help action can't be "instantaneous" the creature taking it has to do something to distract the enemy. There's also no time relation between different turns in the same round. The only thing you can say for sure is that there's 6 seconds between your current turn and your next turn. And even that's an abstraction. It's not like everyone's literally taking actions in order 6 seconds a time.
There's no narrative problem with "The wizard's owl pecked at the enemy's eyes, giving the fighter an opening." It's plausible, and the rules give you a way to do it.
2) Die-mechanics, advantage is a +6 to your die roll, insanely powerful, sure the familiar can be blown out of the sky but that only makes it worse if you are boss battling, the boss now needs to waste a powerful action on dealing with a familiar.
It's not a +6. The biggest jump you can get from advantage is going from 50% hit rate to 75%. That's 25 percentage points which is kinda like having a +5, except not really, since it doesn't let you hit higher ACs. The further you get away from 50% hit rate, the less of an improvement you get. If you're at 5% or 95% hit rate, advantage only buys you 4.75 percentage points, which is less than a +1.
What if your whole party has familiars to use them for advantage?
Doesn't matter, since that pretty much never happens. The rules are there to make the common, real-world scenarios easy. And if that's what they find fun, then fine. Having fun is the most important thing.
But, I would say it is absolutely an OP ability. It's not merely a "meh", it may be under utilized, but that's the fault of players. It may be brushed away by DMs but that's the fault of DMs. The stats don't lie.
Your players don't care about the stats; they care about how the game plays. If it's not a problem for them, it's not worth burdening them with extra rules that weaken them and slow them down to address a pet peeve in your abstract model of the game.
If you think an owl familiar is broken, wait 'til you get a player that's optimized for grappling and shoving.
Why should a target have to waste a turn for something that probably couldn't actually "disadvantage it"? Heh.
Hah I am the same way, but the dice talk is so fun! Sorry I'm so long winded.
I think the reason you're off a little (and so am I) but in your case it's that when you have d20+ modifiers the % against 19 changes based on whatever the modifier is.
My case was I kept confusing myself on when to include the "apparent advantage" and I was rounding up which doesn't work on a dice. You either reach the next whole value or you don't.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sure but I think after a long winded discussion on my part it comes down to some reasonable alternatives.
I still stand by the idea of a CON save for concentration and a DEX save for if the helper disengages.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
Adding saves will bog the game in a manner, compared to a Wizard getting help from a Familiar. Since the advantage D20 is rolled at the same time, from playing in games the helping Owl isn't a big issue and remember if the PC's can do it the NPC's can as well.
Thanks, I just don't know how much it really bogs down a game, it seems like of all the rolls and other things going on it is the lesser of the problems and that it will help balance the game.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
What Help can do:
Gives advantage on ability checks. DM’s can decide if Help is appropriate for the ability check being made.
Gives advantage on first attack that a designated ally makes before familiar’s next turn.
What Help can’t do:
Can’t help with saving throws.
What does advantage do in combat:
If you have a good chance to hit, it helps quite a bit. The equivalent of +5.
If you have very small chance of hitting, it helps less. If you had 30% chance, it’s about the same as +4. 20% chance, +3. 10%, +2. 5%,+1.
Doubles the chance of a critical hit.
Eliminates disadvantage.
Allows a Rogue to use Sneak Attack.
A familiar can give the caster, in effect, an extra Help action. However, the familiar is fragile, so it won’t be able to do this every turn in every combat.
A caster can gain advantage in other ways. Is a familiar just a different way to get advantage or is it too easy of a way?
Does this sum up the question in a reasonable way?
The way I see it, a familiar can reliably give the caster advantage once per combat. After that, use of the familiar may cause the enemy to target it. If it is killed, the caster is out 10gp and a short rest. In an adventure where either gold or short rests are in short supply, this could be costly. I see familiars as a nice perk for the classes and feats that allow you to have one. If a DM allows it to be used in a way that is broken, that’s on the DM, not the rules.
My house rule on this is that if someone uses the help action then they can't move afterwards. Justification being that coordinating actions restricts your movement to be at the right place at the right time. So, familiars can help with attacks, but are very likely to be messed up after. Owls are still good, but not so far beyond all other options as to be the only choice.
Also in my world using dragon's breath counts as a sort of attack because clearly it is. No, I don't care about the "attack = attack roll" ruling.
You're making a lot of assumptions here. Actions, movement and turns don't have defined durations. The Help action can't be "instantaneous" the creature taking it has to do something to distract the enemy. There's also no time relation between different turns in the same round. The only thing you can say for sure is that there's 6 seconds between your current turn and your next turn. And even that's an abstraction. It's not like everyone's literally taking actions in order 6 seconds a time.
There's no narrative problem with "The wizard's owl pecked at the enemy's eyes, giving the fighter an opening." It's plausible, and the rules give you a way to do it.
It's not a +6. The biggest jump you can get from advantage is going from 50% hit rate to 75%. That's 25 percentage points which is kinda like having a +5, except not really, since it doesn't let you hit higher ACs. The further you get away from 50% hit rate, the less of an improvement you get. If you're at 5% or 95% hit rate, advantage only buys you 4.75 percentage points, which is less than a +1.
Doesn't matter, since that pretty much never happens. The rules are there to make the common, real-world scenarios easy. And if that's what they find fun, then fine. Having fun is the most important thing.
Your players don't care about the stats; they care about how the game plays. If it's not a problem for them, it's not worth burdening them with extra rules that weaken them and slow them down to address a pet peeve in your abstract model of the game.
If you think an owl familiar is broken, wait 'til you get a player that's optimized for grappling and shoving.