The reason I think Help, and certainly in regards to familiars, needs modification is it is basically GAME breaking. Advantage at lower levels is basically overpowered. At a DC 10, advantage gives you almost 2 standard deviations MORE likelihood of success. Two standard deviations. That's like going from Forest Gump to Good Will Hunting in terms of IQ points.
I think "Help" should only apply when the person being helped is taking their action.
I absolutely disagree with the concept that a familiar such as an owl can swoop in on its turn, "help", then swoop out. Then the round resumes with that benefit of help being applied.
There's a couple ways to handle this.
1) If an owl swoops in then swoops out, the target can do a DEX saving throw against a DC of 8+ owl's level proficiency to regain its normal stance and readiness.
2) If you think about it, what is Help anyway? Are you telling me an owl is going to throw-off the concentration and intent of a fully armored knight? Get real. You should be lucky that a 1 lbs bird is capable of "interfering" with the rage of a 900lbs 7 foot tall Barbarian Orc at all.
3) The Help should allow a CON save "concentration check" by the target, a save DC of the thing helping + its melee attack + proficiency + special modifiers like take into account grappling(?). THIS MAKES SENSE. Mechanically #3 makes total sense, a Barbarian with STR +4, +2 proficiency, would be a more difficult DC, than a Wizard with a STR or DEX of +1 flailing his arms at you. Again, Knight, full battle armor vs. tiny child. Ignore it, continue to pummel your enemy. Not much "help" from the kid flailing his arms at a fully armored knight.
Frankly, the whole idea that a familiar can help at all is rather garbage. But for the sake of keeping it. At least make them have to perform Help while YOUR action is being performed. Otherwise it doesn't count.
I think it deserves to be discussed as an actual rule. Because the rules are vague on Help and allows far too much benefit without clarification. It says you can perform it as an action. That's basically it. It doesn't stipulate how long that action helps, etc.
Furthermore, it should be an actual RULE change. And should be noticed by everyone, not just homebrewers. It needs to be a full on discussion.
Take for instance advantage in Constitution saves for concentration.
It takes an average player (CON+2), FOUR PROFICIENCY POINTS, before they beat advantage.
Since Help gives you advantage AND your attributes and proficiencies, it means it will ALWAYS be like adding +6 to your die role.
For AN OWL with NO COST or PENALTY to its or your turn?
Are you freaking kidding me? If this game were PVP this would be the FIRST game mechanic to go in the trash. I also don't mean to be snide about it. It just should be considered to have an adjustment. I just have fun wording it more absurdly to point out the absurdness of "help".
The reason I think Help, and certainly in regards to familiars, needs modification is it is basically GAME breaking.
In the grand scheme of things, it's not. It's just advantage on one attack per round, and all it takes is one attack or spell to kill a familiar. Just Ready an action to attack it when it gets in range and the problem goes away. It's not a big enough deal to complicate the rules and slow down the game further with additional dice rolls.
2) If you think about it, what is Help anyway? Are you telling me an owl is going to throw-off the concentration and intent of a fully armored knight?
If an owl started flapping in front of my face, that'd certainly impact my ability to see things, especially if my field of vision is already limited by a helmet.
Also for anyone curious about the nuts and bolts of die-performance, advantage or "reroll" means (mathematically) take average of the average, and round up.
Since the average of a d20 is 10.5, and the average of 10.5 is about 5.5, rounding up gives you 6.
I could have simplified the earlier post by avoiding the discussion of concentration checks versus advantage, but that's the reason it's considered you need a proficiency of 4 (for an average player) to beat advantage's benefits. But actually you need a +6 modifier to beat advantage on a d20.
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The reason I think Help, and certainly in regards to familiars, needs modification is it is basically GAME breaking.
In the grand scheme of things, it's not. It's just advantage on one attack per round, and all it takes is one attack or spell to kill a familiar. Just Ready an action to attack it when it gets in range and the problem goes away. It's not a big enough deal to complicate the rules and slow down the game further with additional dice rolls.
2) If you think about it, what is Help anyway? Are you telling me an owl is going to throw-off the concentration and intent of a fully armored knight?
If an owl started flapping in front of my face, that'd certainly impact my ability to see things, especially if my field of vision is already limited by a helmet.
I already agree with this statement that a familiar is pretty fragile so shouldn't matter right? but then I thought about how Help itself is "sort of" broken. So figured I'd write a post about it and just ... discuss it.
I don't see it as complicating anything to simply say "if target has help used against actively, it can concentration save; if target had help against it in that round it can roll a dex save to recover from its affects".
I mean if your target does a fireball's worth of damage, maybe that taking an action to kill a familiar that shouldn't be bothering it in the first place reeeeely matters.
Regarding point #2. That's my point.
If the owl isn't fluttering in your face RIGHT when the helped player is taking their action, it shouldn't affect the target and the player shouldn't be helped. Right?
I think it deserves to be discussed as an actual rule. Because the rules are vague on Help and allows far too much benefit without clarification. It says you can perform it as an action. That's basically it. It doesn't stipulate how long that action helps, etc.
It does stipulate how long the action helps and I cited this in the other forum.
"If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage." Character A can spend their Action, to Help Character B attack any 1 target. That will give Character B Advantage on 1 attack against that target until the start of Character A's next turn. The scope is very limited as InquisitiveCoder pointed out.
I think it deserves to be discussed as an actual rule. Because the rules are vague on Help and allows far too much benefit without clarification. It says you can perform it as an action. That's basically it. It doesn't stipulate how long that action helps, etc.
It does stipulate how long the action helps and I cited this in the other forum.
"If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage." Character A can spend their Action, to Help Character B attack any 1 target. That will give Character B Advantage on 1 attack against that target until the start of Character A's next turn. The scope is very limited as InquisitiveCoder pointed out.
I'm not going to argue whether or not it should be moved I guess, up to whoever. :) It's all good.
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With regard to your second point; how can an owl distract an opponent enough to provide help. Have you ever been dive bombed by a redwing blackbird? Even if you know it’s coming for you, you are going to instinctively duck. There is something about a little critter acting like it’s going to claw your eyes out that you just can’t ignore.
If the barbarian is using Reckless Attack, the help isn’t going to matter. If the barbarian is just raging, he will still be defending himself against threats.
I think it deserves to be discussed as an actual rule. Because the rules are vague on Help and allows far too much benefit without clarification. It says you can perform it as an action. That's basically it. It doesn't stipulate how long that action helps, etc.
It does stipulate how long the action helps and I cited this in the other forum.
"If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage." Character A can spend their Action, to Help Character B attack any 1 target. That will give Character B Advantage on 1 attack against that target until the start of Character A's next turn. The scope is very limited as InquisitiveCoder pointed out.
I missed the quote you gave, let me address it from my perspective.
The scope is in no way "limited", it's too broad.
Help should be changed, not homebrewed, it should be edited in the PHB
There's two reasons to edit this:
1)Role Play.
2)Die-mechanics.
To address both:
1) 6 seconds is much too long a time for a target to be disadvantaged by a bird that flew off 6 seconds ago...what'd it do claw your eyes out or drop acid in your face? how does a bird fluttering in your face for an (assuming instantaneous) action, then flying 30 feet away, affect you for when a player with a much lower initiative roll goes last and can be safely said to be at the end of the round. That's a full 6 seconds. Not "limited in scope".
2) Die-mechanics, advantage is a +6 to your die roll, insanely powerful, sure the familiar can be blown out of the sky but that only makes it worse if you are boss battling, the boss now needs to waste a powerful action on dealing with a familiar. What if your whole party has familiars to use them for advantage?
Should the "boss" played by the DM just suffer a +6 to all your first attacks as liberally as you can apply them? Or try to deal with the advantage?
That's the heart of the question. I suppose most DMs just say "meh", but the game is slanted to PvE anyway and the DM has other powers at their disposal, I get that, so the issue probably is not really discussed.
But, I would say it is absolutely an OP ability. It's not merely a "meh", it may be under utilized, but that's the fault of players. It may be brushed away by DMs but that's the fault of DMs. The stats don't lie.
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With regard to your second point; how can an owl distract an opponent enough to provide help. Have you ever been dive bombed by a redwing blackbird? Even if you know it’s coming for you, you are going to instinctively duck. There is something about a little critter acting like it’s going to claw your eyes out that you just can’t ignore.
If the barbarian is using Reckless Attack, the help isn’t going to matter. If the barbarian is just raging, he will still be defending himself against threats.
We can role play it all day, which is why I suggest the role play be balanced out by two saving throws for the target.
They can concentration save or the help is successful, it's an easy check against the helper's attack role with proficiency.
If the helper succeeded and broke off to go somewhere else (like the owl) then the target gets another save, I suggest DEX.
This helps clarify the role playability of Help.
I know rolling can get tedious but I can just see it from a DM's perspective. "Do I care about them getting a free +6 to their next attack? Yeah...guess I'll roll to save...I failed? Guess I'll kill the familiar."
If as a DM you don't care, I guess that's on you. But advantage is +6...just saying.
Here is my issue. I think your only "problem" is not with Help Action, but with an owl familiar.
Would you be outraged at a Goblin character using it's Nimble Escape feature to run in, give Aid and run out? Would you be outraged at a Half-orc monk spending a Ki point to Step the Wind and Disengage as a Bonus Action and use it's Action to Help someone else? Would you be outraged by the Necromancer has who Zombies that surround the Player Characters and one of the Zombies Helps the Necromancer attack a PC every turn?
Is it the running in and running out that bothers you? Must they stay there their entire turn for it to "count"? Does the concept of using your Action to give another character Advantage really that OP to you?
5e is about being streamlined and making rules that make sense most of the time even if the edges cases can get wonky.
Here is my issue. I think your only "problem" is not with Help Action, but with an owl familiar.
Would you be outraged at a Goblin character using it's Nimble Escape feature to run in, give Aid and run out? Would you be outraged at a Half-orc monk spending a Ki point to Step the Wind and Disengage as a Bonus Action and use it's Action to Help someone else? Would you be outraged by the Necromancer has who Zombies that surround the Player Characters and one of the Zombies Helps the Necromancer attack a PC every turn?
Is it the running in and running out that bothers you? Must they stay there their entire turn for it to "count"?
5e is about being streamlined and making rules that make sense most of the time even if the edges cases can get wonky.
Thanks for the thoughtfulness.
Goblin - yes, I just don't like the idea of the help applying the whole round, the "DEX Save" is a compromise between "help applies only if being used during the other player's round" and what the rules are currently where help applies as soon as it is acted upon regardless what happens next. The DEX Save also implies you can be good enough at help to swoop in, throw sand in someone's face, swoop out, and make it work.
Monk - I never played a monk so disadvantaged in understanding Step of the Wind, is the action to Help in this case implied that the Monk remains within 5 feet of the target and thereby still using their action to Help?
Necromancer - This is totally fine, because that helping zombie is helping. In the recommended rule changes, no DEX save is allowed (because there's no disengagement) and the standard concentration save is used against the Zombie's attack modifier. I would imagine for instance that a Dragon with a +14 Attack modifier would mean your save against them helping would have to be a CON save against a DC of 22?
The running in and running out bothers me more, because as Help is written (role played) it's YOU doing SOMETHING to help. You aren't doing something if you did something then left.
The CON save is a lesser issue but I think balances out WHO can help. Is it the gadfly biting your hand? Or is it the ogre slapping you in the face.
When calculating the value of advantage to a roll, you need to look at it this way.
If you need to roll an 11 on a d20 to hit, you have a 50% chance of a miss or a miss probability of 0.5. To miss with advantage would be 0.5 x 0.5, or 0.25. This makes advantage in this case equivalent to +5.
If you need to roll 15 on a d20 to hit, you have a 70% chance of a miss or 0.7. To miss with advantage would be 0.7 x 0.7 = 0.49. Advantage in this case is equivalent to +4.
At 19 needed to roll, advantage is approximately equivalent to +2.
edit: it’s the number you need to roll on the d20 that is important. Sorry about the confusion
When calculating the value of advantage to a roll, you need to look at it this way.
If you need an total of 11 to hit, you have a 50% chance of a miss or a miss probability of 0.5. To miss with advantage would be 0.5 x 0.5, or 0.25. This makes advantage in this case equivalent to +5.
If you need a total of 15 to hit, you have a 70% chance of a miss or 0.7. To miss with advantage would be 0.7 x 0.7 = 0.49. Advantage in this case is equivalent to +4.
At 19 needed to hit, advantage is approximately equivalent to +2.
Correct in one aspect off in another. There is a diminishing return for advantage that drops as it approaches your max roll because naturally you can't roll higher than your max. But the chance to succeed has to be considered against your total chance to hit (the modifier), not the D20 itself. This is because the modifiers will skew the distribution curve. And you have to compare your advantage with a baseline, let's take +2 baseline.
A baseline of +2 does not share the same chance of success as on advantage until a DC of 21. With advantage plummeting to zero at a DC23 for obvious reasons (you'll never roll more than 22).
I'm not exactly sure where you get the DC19 = a +4 unless you're using some shorthand.
0.49 = 49% or very close to 50% which you quote as a +5. So perhaps you round down being .49 is less than .5. That's fair, we are dealing with quanta, not fractions so rounding is absolute.
I get a +3 for DC 19 +4 for DC 17. +5 for 14
If I use a baseline of +2 on all d20 rolls.
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It seems to max out at +5, so I was probably wrong on the max, but I've gone over it again (on my lunch lol) and I'm pretty sure the I got it right now. +5 is the highest equivalent advantage will be before you have 100% chance to succeed at the lowest possible DC (d20 + modifiers). The lower end seems to move up DC by 2 for ever gain in +1 modifier.
So if you have a max roll of 23, then your +3 at DC19, now becomes a +3 at DC 21 if you raise your ability modifier by 1.
Somewhere that will have a limiting return but
Sorry if that's confusing lol I had to graph it out. K lunch over.
If the number you need to roll on a d20 is 19 then you have a 90% chance of missing. Your probability of missing is 0.9. Your probability of missing with advantage is 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81. This is approximately equivalent to +2, since an 80% chance of missing is the same as needing a total of 17 (d20+modifiers)
edit. I think I got something wrong here. Give me a minute to fix it
edit 2. Ok I think that’s what I was trying to say.
If the total number you need (d20+modifiers) is 19 then you have a 90% chance of missing. Your probability of missing is 0.9. Your probability of missing with advantage is 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81. This is approximately equivalent to +2, since an 80% chance of missing is the same as needing a total of 17 (d20+modifiers)
Your math isn't allowing for any possibility of DC21 or greater, you've arbitrarily capped it at DC 20 and therefore handicapped your distribution curve. The curve is off but not by much. we are both "close enough", though in hindsight my +6 and +7 seem rather unrealistically high (but I will concede that).
It's somewhere between +5 and +2 depending on how close you are to your minimum success (1+all modifiers) and how close you are to your max (20+all modifiers).
Which DC ratings get the equivalent of any of those will shift based on that curve's shift to the right as you include all modifiers.
DC 19 = +2 is actually only true for +0 modifiers. It's very very close to +3 as soon as you do a +1 modifier. Unfortunately, a die doesn't know the difference so you're right in that sense, it's equivalent to +2 at any given roll, but if you rolled 100 times then about 83 of those times your advantage would look like you had a +3.
Just wait until that owl familiar starts breathing fire with dragon’s breath. It’s just a fact of the game. Arcane tricksters in particular are going to use the owl familiar to get them advantage for sneak attack. If it becomes a hassle for the enemy, shoot the owl.
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The reason I think Help, and certainly in regards to familiars, needs modification is it is basically GAME breaking. Advantage at lower levels is basically overpowered. At a DC 10, advantage gives you almost 2 standard deviations MORE likelihood of success. Two standard deviations. That's like going from Forest Gump to Good Will Hunting in terms of IQ points.
I think "Help" should only apply when the person being helped is taking their action.
I absolutely disagree with the concept that a familiar such as an owl can swoop in on its turn, "help", then swoop out. Then the round resumes with that benefit of help being applied.
There's a couple ways to handle this.
1) If an owl swoops in then swoops out, the target can do a DEX saving throw against a DC of 8+ owl's level proficiency to regain its normal stance and readiness.
2) If you think about it, what is Help anyway? Are you telling me an owl is going to throw-off the concentration and intent of a fully armored knight? Get real. You should be lucky that a 1 lbs bird is capable of "interfering" with the rage of a 900lbs 7 foot tall Barbarian Orc at all.
3) The Help should allow a CON save "concentration check" by the target, a save DC of the thing helping + its melee attack + proficiency + special modifiers like take into account grappling(?). THIS MAKES SENSE.
Mechanically #3 makes total sense, a Barbarian with STR +4, +2 proficiency, would be a more difficult DC, than a Wizard with a STR or DEX of +1 flailing his arms at you. Again, Knight, full battle armor vs. tiny child. Ignore it, continue to pummel your enemy. Not much "help" from the kid flailing his arms at a fully armored knight.
Frankly, the whole idea that a familiar can help at all is rather garbage. But for the sake of keeping it. At least make them have to perform Help while YOUR action is being performed. Otherwise it doesn't count.
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I recommend this be moved to Homebrew & House Rules not Rules & Game Mechanics.
It started here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/wizard/34183-are-familiars-useful
I think it deserves to be discussed as an actual rule. Because the rules are vague on Help and allows far too much benefit without clarification. It says you can perform it as an action. That's basically it. It doesn't stipulate how long that action helps, etc.
Furthermore, it should be an actual RULE change. And should be noticed by everyone, not just homebrewers. It needs to be a full on discussion.
Take for instance advantage in Constitution saves for concentration.
It takes an average player (CON+2), FOUR PROFICIENCY POINTS, before they beat advantage.
Since Help gives you advantage AND your attributes and proficiencies, it means it will ALWAYS be like adding +6 to your die role.
For AN OWL with NO COST or PENALTY to its or your turn?
Are you freaking kidding me? If this game were PVP this would be the FIRST game mechanic to go in the trash. I also don't mean to be snide about it. It just should be considered to have an adjustment. I just have fun wording it more absurdly to point out the absurdness of "help".
"Oh I got a level 1 spell? I cast +6 kick arse".
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
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In the grand scheme of things, it's not. It's just advantage on one attack per round, and all it takes is one attack or spell to kill a familiar. Just Ready an action to attack it when it gets in range and the problem goes away. It's not a big enough deal to complicate the rules and slow down the game further with additional dice rolls.
If an owl started flapping in front of my face, that'd certainly impact my ability to see things, especially if my field of vision is already limited by a helmet.
Also for anyone curious about the nuts and bolts of die-performance, advantage or "reroll" means (mathematically) take average of the average, and round up.
Since the average of a d20 is 10.5, and the average of 10.5 is about 5.5, rounding up gives you 6.
I could have simplified the earlier post by avoiding the discussion of concentration checks versus advantage, but that's the reason it's considered you need a proficiency of 4 (for an average player) to beat advantage's benefits. But actually you need a +6 modifier to beat advantage on a d20.
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I already agree with this statement that a familiar is pretty fragile so shouldn't matter right? but then I thought about how Help itself is "sort of" broken. So figured I'd write a post about it and just ... discuss it.
I don't see it as complicating anything to simply say "if target has help used against actively, it can concentration save; if target had help against it in that round it can roll a dex save to recover from its affects".
I mean if your target does a fireball's worth of damage, maybe that taking an action to kill a familiar that shouldn't be bothering it in the first place reeeeely matters.
Regarding point #2. That's my point.
If the owl isn't fluttering in your face RIGHT when the helped player is taking their action, it shouldn't affect the target and the player shouldn't be helped. Right?
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It does stipulate how long the action helps and I cited this in the other forum.
"If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage." Character A can spend their Action, to Help Character B attack any 1 target. That will give Character B Advantage on 1 attack against that target until the start of Character A's next turn. The scope is very limited as InquisitiveCoder pointed out.
I'm not going to argue whether or not it should be moved I guess, up to whoever. :) It's all good.
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With regard to your second point; how can an owl distract an opponent enough to provide help. Have you ever been dive bombed by a redwing blackbird? Even if you know it’s coming for you, you are going to instinctively duck. There is something about a little critter acting like it’s going to claw your eyes out that you just can’t ignore.
If the barbarian is using Reckless Attack, the help isn’t going to matter. If the barbarian is just raging, he will still be defending himself against threats.
I missed the quote you gave, let me address it from my perspective.
The scope is in no way "limited", it's too broad.
Help should be changed, not homebrewed, it should be edited in the PHB
There's two reasons to edit this:
1)Role Play.
2)Die-mechanics.
To address both:
1) 6 seconds is much too long a time for a target to be disadvantaged by a bird that flew off 6 seconds ago...what'd it do claw your eyes out or drop acid in your face? how does a bird fluttering in your face for an (assuming instantaneous) action, then flying 30 feet away, affect you for when a player with a much lower initiative roll goes last and can be safely said to be at the end of the round. That's a full 6 seconds. Not "limited in scope".
2) Die-mechanics, advantage is a +6 to your die roll, insanely powerful, sure the familiar can be blown out of the sky but that only makes it worse if you are boss battling, the boss now needs to waste a powerful action on dealing with a familiar. What if your whole party has familiars to use them for advantage?
Should the "boss" played by the DM just suffer a +6 to all your first attacks as liberally as you can apply them? Or try to deal with the advantage?
That's the heart of the question. I suppose most DMs just say "meh", but the game is slanted to PvE anyway and the DM has other powers at their disposal, I get that, so the issue probably is not really discussed.
But, I would say it is absolutely an OP ability. It's not merely a "meh", it may be under utilized, but that's the fault of players. It may be brushed away by DMs but that's the fault of DMs. The stats don't lie.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
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We can role play it all day, which is why I suggest the role play be balanced out by two saving throws for the target.
They can concentration save or the help is successful, it's an easy check against the helper's attack role with proficiency.
If the helper succeeded and broke off to go somewhere else (like the owl) then the target gets another save, I suggest DEX.
This helps clarify the role playability of Help.
I know rolling can get tedious but I can just see it from a DM's perspective. "Do I care about them getting a free +6 to their next attack? Yeah...guess I'll roll to save...I failed? Guess I'll kill the familiar."
If as a DM you don't care, I guess that's on you. But advantage is +6...just saying.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
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The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
I don't want to split my own hairs because I barely have any left, but I reviewed the calculations on the die rolls.
Advantage is closer to +7 than +6.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
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The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
Here is my issue. I think your only "problem" is not with Help Action, but with an owl familiar.
Would you be outraged at a Goblin character using it's Nimble Escape feature to run in, give Aid and run out?
Would you be outraged at a Half-orc monk spending a Ki point to Step the Wind and Disengage as a Bonus Action and use it's Action to Help someone else?
Would you be outraged by the Necromancer has who Zombies that surround the Player Characters and one of the Zombies Helps the Necromancer attack a PC every turn?
Is it the running in and running out that bothers you? Must they stay there their entire turn for it to "count"? Does the concept of using your Action to give another character Advantage really that OP to you?
5e is about being streamlined and making rules that make sense most of the time even if the edges cases can get wonky.
Thanks for the thoughtfulness.
Goblin - yes, I just don't like the idea of the help applying the whole round, the "DEX Save" is a compromise between "help applies only if being used during the other player's round" and what the rules are currently where help applies as soon as it is acted upon regardless what happens next. The DEX Save also implies you can be good enough at help to swoop in, throw sand in someone's face, swoop out, and make it work.
Monk - I never played a monk so disadvantaged in understanding Step of the Wind, is the action to Help in this case implied that the Monk remains within 5 feet of the target and thereby still using their action to Help?
Necromancer - This is totally fine, because that helping zombie is helping. In the recommended rule changes, no DEX save is allowed (because there's no disengagement) and the standard concentration save is used against the Zombie's attack modifier. I would imagine for instance that a Dragon with a +14 Attack modifier would mean your save against them helping would have to be a CON save against a DC of 22?
The running in and running out bothers me more, because as Help is written (role played) it's YOU doing SOMETHING to help. You aren't doing something if you did something then left.
The CON save is a lesser issue but I think balances out WHO can help. Is it the gadfly biting your hand? Or is it the ogre slapping you in the face.
Big differences.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
When calculating the value of advantage to a roll, you need to look at it this way.
If you need to roll an 11 on a d20 to hit, you have a 50% chance of a miss or a miss probability of 0.5. To miss with advantage would be 0.5 x 0.5, or 0.25. This makes advantage in this case equivalent to +5.
If you need to roll 15 on a d20 to hit, you have a 70% chance of a miss or 0.7. To miss with advantage would be 0.7 x 0.7 = 0.49. Advantage in this case is equivalent to +4.
At 19 needed to roll, advantage is approximately equivalent to +2.
edit: it’s the number you need to roll on the d20 that is important. Sorry about the confusion
Correct in one aspect off in another. There is a diminishing return for advantage that drops as it approaches your max roll because naturally you can't roll higher than your max. But the chance to succeed has to be considered against your total chance to hit (the modifier), not the D20 itself. This is because the modifiers will skew the distribution curve. And you have to compare your advantage with a baseline, let's take +2 baseline.
A baseline of +2 does not share the same chance of success as on advantage until a DC of 21. With advantage plummeting to zero at a DC23 for obvious reasons (you'll never roll more than 22).
I'm not exactly sure where you get the DC19 = a +4 unless you're using some shorthand.
0.49 = 49% or very close to 50% which you quote as a +5. So perhaps you round down being .49 is less than .5. That's fair, we are dealing with quanta, not fractions so rounding is absolute.
I get a +3 for DC 19
+4 for DC 17.
+5 for 14
If I use a baseline of +2 on all d20 rolls.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
It seems to max out at +5, so I was probably wrong on the max, but I've gone over it again (on my lunch lol) and I'm pretty sure the I got it right now. +5 is the highest equivalent advantage will be before you have 100% chance to succeed at the lowest possible DC (d20 + modifiers). The lower end seems to move up DC by 2 for ever gain in +1 modifier.
So if you have a max roll of 23, then your +3 at DC19, now becomes a +3 at DC 21 if you raise your ability modifier by 1.
Somewhere that will have a limiting return but
Sorry if that's confusing lol I had to graph it out. K lunch over.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
If the number you need to roll on a d20 is 19 then you have a 90% chance of missing. Your probability of missing is 0.9. Your probability of missing with advantage is 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81. This is approximately equivalent to +2, since an 80% chance of missing is the same as needing a total of 17 (d20+modifiers)
edit. I think I got something wrong here. Give me a minute to fix it
edit 2. Ok I think that’s what I was trying to say.
Your math isn't allowing for any possibility of DC21 or greater, you've arbitrarily capped it at DC 20 and therefore handicapped your distribution curve. The curve is off but not by much. we are both "close enough", though in hindsight my +6 and +7 seem rather unrealistically high (but I will concede that).
It's somewhere between +5 and +2 depending on how close you are to your minimum success (1+all modifiers) and how close you are to your max (20+all modifiers).
Which DC ratings get the equivalent of any of those will shift based on that curve's shift to the right as you include all modifiers.
DC 19 = +2 is actually only true for +0 modifiers. It's very very close to +3 as soon as you do a +1 modifier. Unfortunately, a die doesn't know the difference so you're right in that sense, it's equivalent to +2 at any given roll, but if you rolled 100 times then about 83 of those times your advantage would look like you had a +3.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
Just wait until that owl familiar starts breathing fire with dragon’s breath. It’s just a fact of the game. Arcane tricksters in particular are going to use the owl familiar to get them advantage for sneak attack. If it becomes a hassle for the enemy, shoot the owl.
"Not all those who wander are lost"