Initially I thought it might be useful to differentiate the benefits of actively looking, vs. passively looking, where active should be advantageous.
However, if you're using passive as a floor for active, then odds are pretty good that if you're active you're going to roll higher - so there's already an advantage.
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I have had this debate many times and use the passive scores as the floor. There is a long discussion Crawford has on the subject and it makes perfect sense RAW and RAI. What I instead do for the DC of things is alter them based on how they characters are acting. If you aren't specifically looking then the DC is a bit higher than listed. So lets say you walk in a room with a secret door with a perception check needed of 19 and the character has a passive of 20. If they say they just walk through the room, I'd set the passive DC a bit higher to 21, but if that character says they would like to look for secret doors, I then lower the DC to the base and he automatically finds it. If that same character is running through the room and being chased then the passive DC would be 24. Now if the DC is a 20 and the character has a 30 passive and they are running through a room with a trap, they would still see it "you see a trap that you have studied many times over that it is obvious to your trained eye." Same as a character with a 20 str wouldn't need to roll an athletics check for a 12 DC athletics.
Allow the players that want to have high perception and investigation shine since that is what they are built around. You have to give up something to have high scores. My Wizard took a one level dip into rogue for expertise in investigation along with the observant feat, his passive investigation is 33. I made him to be a Sherlock Holmes type of character and spent a significant amount of resources with a level dip and a feat to do so. To not allow his passive being so high would be like having a character take a dip into Barbarian and then tell them they aren't allowed to use rage.
It takes a bit of work as a DM to cater to the extremes of any build, but it's a challenge I welcome and love to see when a player's character gets to use what they are designed for.
my dm will pretty much ask us to roll perception if there is anything he considers useful to notice but to floor it at our passive ourselves when we report the result to him unless we roll a 1. he doesn't want to keep track of our scores i guess
I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating what has already been said. Here's my 2cp:
I play in a game where the DM factors in TIME when deciding if a passive works or if an active check is required. Spend enough time in a room, your passive will find it. If you're walking past and don't stop at all, it wont. An active check would be required for that. If the party runs into a dead end and someone says, I take the time to search again, then he calculates 'so much time' per linear foot that needs to be explored and the passive kicks in. Doesn't do much when time is not an issue, but when it matters, the system works.
My favorite way to implement passives is to treat it like a 6th sense. That's how I deal with it when I DM. When a player with a passive high enough to find whatever there is to find gets in range, then I tell them, your 6th sense is tingling. The rule at my table is 2 tries for skill checks (2 individuals roll once, or 1 helps the other), then you move on. So even though their passives notify the players there is something to find, it is not automatic. They still have to make active skill checks. If the players persist, then I will give in and tell them, "If you spend enough time..."
You all are forgetting that passive perception is also great to be used when one of the 2 parties (whether the players or the monsters) are stealthed and trying to sneak up on the other. The unsuspecting party wouldn't know to start rolling to search (unless you ask, which would make it obvious) so this is the only way to actually have one of the parties be surprised. (The only way that I can think of having a party actively rolling on a surprise attack would be if they're in a room that they think may have an ambush set up or in a room of a dungeon where they know monsters will be nearby and actually mention that) otherwise, there can't be any surprise attacks on either party!
You all are forgetting that passive perception is also great to be used when one of the 2 parties (whether the players or the monsters) are stealthed and trying to sneak up on the other. The unsuspecting party wouldn't know to start rolling to search (unless you ask, which would make it obvious) so this is the only way to actually have one of the parties be surprised. (The only way that I can think of having a party actively rolling on a surprise attack would be if they're in a room that they think may have an ambush set up or in a room of a dungeon where they know monsters will be nearby and actually mention that) otherwise, there can't be any surprise attacks on either party!
Other characters with a lower perception would be surprised in the first round of combat whereas the ones with the higher passive perception would have their turn as normal.
Truthfully.. if I get this it seems to me passive IS a floor but an unstable one. remember you can search at half speed.. or full speed at a -5.. which drops the floor even for passive.. so now the Observant's floor is at a Normal's.. running??? Be careful about assuming +5 is a shorthand for advantage when not rolling.. as I did.. only later did I discover I could add my magic-users familiar's perception assistance advantage to passive perception. Also, remember.. An observant is seeing what others don't.. a smaller clue.. than the rest of the party's.. so narratively should Sound more subtle.. but none the less an obvious something not quite right. I suggest treating the discovery AS AN Action, so turn to player and ask them what do you tell the party.. and let them take their turn.. or the player can choose to say "wait" and take the next action as investigation.. which if hidden monsters may be an issue for the party.
While the rules below are NOT Searching. . it still says applicable bonuses So moving full speed and not searching still -5, while moving half speed and Not searching would be the floor.
While a mage with a familiar flying scout to assist perception, adds +5 adv to the passive even if not searching.
" [Passive Perception] . When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14."
And then there are other passives that never come up unless the DM is being clever.. Enemy rogue enters and drugs the supplies with sleep herbs.. and the DM checks the Passive Survival of that night's cook. could be perception.. but what if that floor was worse. then the survival floor.
the fact being that preparing food is usually a passive skill during camps.. it just passes by unnoticed.. but if they chose the high survival as a cook even as a joke.. it isn't. The DM can even do this deliberately as a narrative warning.. that they have active enemies. the Enemies simply picked the wrong herbs or preparation whose -dc was to low.
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Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
Aside from passive perception, the only one I can see using in my own game is maybe passive insight. I could see a high survival or arcana or whatever skill as boosting someone's passive perception in relation to things that those other skills would deal with. For me, it comes down to the fact that that's just more work than I feel like putting into "behind the scenes" DMing. I would rather spend my time and energy on richer active experiences for the players.
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"Not all those who wander are lost"
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I'm not sure about that anymore either.
Initially I thought it might be useful to differentiate the benefits of actively looking, vs. passively looking, where active should be advantageous.
However, if you're using passive as a floor for active, then odds are pretty good that if you're active you're going to roll higher - so there's already an advantage.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
i'd honestly say it is probably closer to design intent to give advantage than expertise
I have had this debate many times and use the passive scores as the floor. There is a long discussion Crawford has on the subject and it makes perfect sense RAW and RAI. What I instead do for the DC of things is alter them based on how they characters are acting. If you aren't specifically looking then the DC is a bit higher than listed. So lets say you walk in a room with a secret door with a perception check needed of 19 and the character has a passive of 20. If they say they just walk through the room, I'd set the passive DC a bit higher to 21, but if that character says they would like to look for secret doors, I then lower the DC to the base and he automatically finds it. If that same character is running through the room and being chased then the passive DC would be 24. Now if the DC is a 20 and the character has a 30 passive and they are running through a room with a trap, they would still see it "you see a trap that you have studied many times over that it is obvious to your trained eye." Same as a character with a 20 str wouldn't need to roll an athletics check for a 12 DC athletics.
Allow the players that want to have high perception and investigation shine since that is what they are built around. You have to give up something to have high scores. My Wizard took a one level dip into rogue for expertise in investigation along with the observant feat, his passive investigation is 33. I made him to be a Sherlock Holmes type of character and spent a significant amount of resources with a level dip and a feat to do so. To not allow his passive being so high would be like having a character take a dip into Barbarian and then tell them they aren't allowed to use rage.
It takes a bit of work as a DM to cater to the extremes of any build, but it's a challenge I welcome and love to see when a player's character gets to use what they are designed for.
my dm will pretty much ask us to roll perception if there is anything he considers useful to notice but to floor it at our passive ourselves when we report the result to him unless we roll a 1. he doesn't want to keep track of our scores i guess
I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating what has already been said. Here's my 2cp:
You all are forgetting that passive perception is also great to be used when one of the 2 parties (whether the players or the monsters) are stealthed and trying to sneak up on the other. The unsuspecting party wouldn't know to start rolling to search (unless you ask, which would make it obvious) so this is the only way to actually have one of the parties be surprised. (The only way that I can think of having a party actively rolling on a surprise attack would be if they're in a room that they think may have an ambush set up or in a room of a dungeon where they know monsters will be nearby and actually mention that) otherwise, there can't be any surprise attacks on either party!
Other characters with a lower perception would be surprised in the first round of combat whereas the ones with the higher passive perception would have their turn as normal.
Truthfully.. if I get this it seems to me passive IS a floor but an unstable one. remember you can search at half speed.. or full speed at a -5..
which drops the floor even for passive.. so now the Observant's floor is at a Normal's.. running???
Be careful about assuming +5 is a shorthand for advantage when not rolling.. as I did.. only later did I discover I could add my magic-users familiar's perception assistance advantage to passive perception.
Also, remember.. An observant is seeing what others don't.. a smaller clue.. than the rest of the party's.. so narratively should Sound more subtle.. but none the less an obvious something not quite right.
I suggest treating the discovery AS AN Action, so turn to player and ask them what do you tell the party.. and let them take their turn.. or the player can choose to say "wait" and take the next action as investigation.. which if hidden monsters may be an issue for the party.
While the rules below are NOT Searching. . it still says applicable bonuses
So moving full speed and not searching still -5, while moving half speed and Not searching would be the floor.
While a mage with a familiar flying scout to assist perception, adds +5 adv to the passive even if not searching.
" [Passive Perception] . When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14."
And then there are other passives that never come up unless the DM is being clever.. Enemy rogue enters and drugs the supplies with sleep herbs..
and the DM checks the Passive Survival of that night's cook. could be perception.. but what if that floor was worse. then the survival floor.
the fact being that preparing food is usually a passive skill during camps.. it just passes by unnoticed.. but if they chose the high survival as a cook even as a joke.. it isn't.
The DM can even do this deliberately as a narrative warning.. that they have active enemies. the Enemies simply picked the wrong herbs or preparation whose -dc was to low.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
Aside from passive perception, the only one I can see using in my own game is maybe passive insight. I could see a high survival or arcana or whatever skill as boosting someone's passive perception in relation to things that those other skills would deal with. For me, it comes down to the fact that that's just more work than I feel like putting into "behind the scenes" DMing. I would rather spend my time and energy on richer active experiences for the players.
"Not all those who wander are lost"