So the spell Suggestion has me confused because it is a Concentration spell. Basically, in its example, it states:
You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn't met before the spell expires, the activity isn't performed.
My problem with this being, Suggestion is a Concentration spell with a duration of 8 hours. If a meet someone on the road and ask them to give the next beggar they see their horse, do I need to stay Concentrated on that spell for 8 hours for it to work for the whole 8 hours? I would assume so since the spell is Concentration. But its example seems rather vague.
Also, does the knight justify her action afterward? For example, what if I cast Suggestion but instead told her to give me her horse. Would she do so than be okay with it afterwords? Or would she see that as a robbery?
Regarding the first issue, you have to keep Concentration until the subject finishes the task, if it can be finished before the 8 hours are up. So if the target meets someone 5 minutes after you cast Suggestion on them, they'll give them their horse and the spell ends, and you no longer need to (or can) maintain Concentration. If the target goes for 8 hours without meeting anybody, then the spell ends, and they'll still have their horse.
As for the second issue, they'll know they were under the influence of Suggestion, and they'll know you asked for their horse, and they'll remember having thought it sounded reasonable, and they'll remember having done so willingly. Whether they're ok with it afterwards or whether they consider it robbery is up to them. I'd assume most targets, at least those with a reasonable Intelligence score, would be able to deduce they only did so because of the spell, and wouldn't do it otherwise. But the circumstances may change that: a Sorcerer using Subtle Spell and casting this behind a screen or something (to hide the Material component part of the casting) might not know it was you who cast the spell on them, and might not be able to connect the spell and the actual suggestion.
Regarding the first issue, you have to keep Concentration until the subject finishes the task, if it can be finished before the 8 hours are up. So if the target meets someone 5 minutes after you cast Suggestion on them, they'll give them their horse and the spell ends, and you no longer need to (or can) maintain Concentration. If the target goes for 8 hours without meeting anybody, then the spell ends, and they'll still have their horse.
As for the second issue, they'll know they were under the influence of Suggestion, and they'll know you asked for their horse, and they'll remember having thought it sounded reasonable, and they'll remember having done so willingly. Whether they're ok with it afterwards or whether they consider it robbery is up to them. I'd assume most targets, at least those with a reasonable Intelligence score, would be able to deduce they only did so because of the spell, and wouldn't do it otherwise. But the circumstances may change that: a Sorcerer using Subtle Spell and casting this behind a screen or something (to hide the Material component part of the casting) might not know it was you who cast the spell on them, and might not be able to connect the spell and the actual suggestion.
Why would they know they are under the influence of Suggestion. Even the player handbook says "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature's thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise." (source)
In the example Suggestion gives, does that mean the knight might just take back their horse from the beggar? I am really starting to hate this spell, it seems to vague. I think it is to easy to argue either way. I want to feel like I have more a solid understanding of how the spell would work than to debate with a player/gm over how it would be handled every time it was cast. Might be best to just take another spell instead.
Well, when the condition is met the spell fades. The person acting on the Suggestion will find themselves acting differently than they were previously. If it's a material situation, say a mount, then it would be apparent that something odd has happened. If it was something less obvious, say delivering a message to an enemy faction, it may go unnoticed. That part of your question is hinged on what the Suggestion requires and how immediate/apparent the impact of the action is.
If you really wanted to push the issue a Wisdom/Intelligence check could be rolled to see if they realize what's happened.
Well, when the condition is met the spell fades. The person acting on the Suggestion will find themselves acting differently than they were previously. If it's a material situation, say a mount, then it would be apparent that something odd has happened. If it was something less obvious, say delivering a message to an enemy faction, it may go unnoticed. That part of your question is hinged on what the Suggestion requires and how immediate/apparent the impact of the action is.
If you really wanted to push the issue a Wisdom/Intelligence check could be rolled to see if they realize what's happened.
The more I read about the spell it seems like it needs a good trust bond between a DM and Player, either one party or the other is going to get annoyed with it.
I keep using the horse as an example because its the specific example listed in the spell. Which is starting to sound like they should either clarify how the knight would handle the spell afterword or change their example to be something less drastic. I warhorse can be expensive either 150 or 400 gold pieces. In their example, it sounds like the knight would just be giving it away for free with no issue. But even I have to admit, I wouldn't reasonably be giving away 150 to 400 gold pieces of anything way without feeling robbed.
Maybe I am just getting hung up on their example too much, and should probably just assume it is a terrible example for the spell. I don't know, the spell seems to make more sense if you exclude the example, because I can justify "reasonable" better. But once you include the example, it gets a little tougher for me to wrap my head around. Because with the included example, it seems reasonable is something that the target can't justify not to do because it doesn't physically harm them to do so. But if that is the condition of reasonable than the spell is really powerful.
"Go to the nearest church in town and tell them you've decided to devote yourself to their cause." "Head back into town and, when you see a guard, confess your crimes." "Walk to Neverwinter, donate your gold to the first pauper you come across." "Head to Daggerfall, drop your weapons down the first well you find."
All of those do not cause harm to the person, all of them sound reasonable, and each of them has a very significant effect on the outcome of the spell. It could be argued that the second example would be an improper example if the law of the land is death for the crimes, but that's the only one that has that potential.
My thought is that the subject wouldn't necessarily know they had been under the influence of a Suggestion spell (or any spell), but they would remember you giving them the suggestion and then them acting on the suggestion.
In the example of the knight, he would remember you telling him to give his warhorse to the next beggar he saw, and would remember giving his horse to the beggar. Since that was the end of your suggestion to him he would be standing right next to the beggar when the spell end and would probably take back his horse and go looking for you. If you wanted the beggar to keep the horse better to give the knight the suggestion to give his horse to a beggar and then go to the castle or something like that.
"Go to the nearest church in town and tell them you've decided to devote yourself to their cause." "Head back into town and, when you see a guard, confess your crimes." "Walk to Neverwinter, donate your gold to the first pauper you come across." "Head to Daggerfall, drop your weapons down the first well you find."
All of those do not cause harm to the person, all of them sound reasonable, and each of them has a very significant effect on the outcome of the spell. It could be argued that the second example would be an improper example if the law of the land is death for the crimes, but that's the only one that has that potential.
I get the idea behind the spell, my problem is what happens once the spell technically ends. Using your examples:
"Go to the nearest church in town and tell them you've decided to devote yourself to their cause." - Does he have to follow this or once he says that can he be like, naw some crazy ass bad made me say that? "Walk to Neverwinter, donate your gold to the first pauper you come across." - What would stop him from just killing the beggar and taking his gold back after he had completed the suggestion?
I get the idea that the spell will cause them to do that, but will they rationalize their action or will they just be like, **** that and take their stuff back?
The spell seems easy if it is something like, "Go stand in that corner until I ask you to stop", Easy enough here because there really isn't anything gained or lost in that transaction besides time. My question is, with Suggestion what happens when there is a cost on that request. For example, What if I asked the guards to open the gate and let me enter. After I entered what is stopping them from just following me in and arresting me? Is it because they felt as though I was allowed entry because they opened the gate and let me in. Or no they totally come in and arrest me? What if I ask a tavern owner to let me have a room for the night. Would they come in and kick me out as soon as I went to sleep because my concentration would be broken or would the feel as they gave me the room for the night and let me stay.
My problem with this spell is they tell you how it will work as someone is under the influence of the spell. But unlike Charm Person or Friends they don't give you any examples of how the person will act once the suggestion has been completed.
In the end it's DM fiat because there is no specific answer to this. You have just as much right to say that the npc will kill the beggar and take the money back as you do saying that the action is justified by some rewiring in the brain from the spell.
Why would they know they are under the influence of Suggestion. Even the player handbook says "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature's thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise." (source)
My thought is that the subject wouldn't necessarily know they had been under the influence of a Suggestion spell (or any spell), but they would remember you giving them the suggestion and then them acting on the suggestion.
In the example of the knight, he would remember you telling him to give his warhorse to the next beggar he saw, and would remember giving his horse to the beggar. Since that was the end of your suggestion to him he would be standing right next to the beggar when the spell end and would probably take back his horse and go looking for you. If you wanted the beggar to keep the horse better to give the knight the suggestion to give his horse to a beggar and then go to the castle or something like that.
You're right. I was confusing the specific rules for spells like Charm Person and Friends with a general rule regarding "mind-affecting spells". The target would not know they were under the spell, although they might deduce it from seeing and/or hearing you cast it (given the V and M components). If there is no such perception involved (Sorcerer using Subtle Spell and hiding while casting, the target being deafened and either blinded or not within line of sight of the caster at the moment of casting (they still need to be able to hear the actual suggestion), etc.), then there is very little chance the target will know they'd been affected by the spell. In that case, they'd remember having heard you make the suggestion, and remember having performed the action, but shouldn't think themselves being forced to do so in any way.
Bear in mind, the spell requires the suggestion be worded in such a way as to sound reasonable, so, if done during combat, simply "stop attacking us" usually shouldn't work. "Let's parlay instead of fighting" probably should, though. In the example of the knight giving their horse to the first beggar, they wouldn't consider it robbery. They might consider it an extreme act of kindness, or a moment of weakness, or a bad decision, and might even be suspicious as to why they're doing something so odd for their character, just after that wizard guy suggested they do so... but unless and until they become convinced the wizard made them do it, they wouldn't consider it robbery.
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So the spell Suggestion has me confused because it is a Concentration spell. Basically, in its example, it states:
My problem with this being, Suggestion is a Concentration spell with a duration of 8 hours. If a meet someone on the road and ask them to give the next beggar they see their horse, do I need to stay Concentrated on that spell for 8 hours for it to work for the whole 8 hours? I would assume so since the spell is Concentration. But its example seems rather vague.
Also, does the knight justify her action afterward? For example, what if I cast Suggestion but instead told her to give me her horse. Would she do so than be okay with it afterwords? Or would she see that as a robbery?
Regarding the first issue, you have to keep Concentration until the subject finishes the task, if it can be finished before the 8 hours are up. So if the target meets someone 5 minutes after you cast Suggestion on them, they'll give them their horse and the spell ends, and you no longer need to (or can) maintain Concentration. If the target goes for 8 hours without meeting anybody, then the spell ends, and they'll still have their horse.
As for the second issue, they'll know they were under the influence of Suggestion, and they'll know you asked for their horse, and they'll remember having thought it sounded reasonable, and they'll remember having done so willingly. Whether they're ok with it afterwards or whether they consider it robbery is up to them. I'd assume most targets, at least those with a reasonable Intelligence score, would be able to deduce they only did so because of the spell, and wouldn't do it otherwise. But the circumstances may change that: a Sorcerer using Subtle Spell and casting this behind a screen or something (to hide the Material component part of the casting) might not know it was you who cast the spell on them, and might not be able to connect the spell and the actual suggestion.
Why would they know they are under the influence of Suggestion. Even the player handbook says "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature's thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise." (source)
Unlike Charm Person or Friends, Suggestion does not specifically state that the target is aware of the spell.
In the example Suggestion gives, does that mean the knight might just take back their horse from the beggar? I am really starting to hate this spell, it seems to vague. I think it is to easy to argue either way. I want to feel like I have more a solid understanding of how the spell would work than to debate with a player/gm over how it would be handled every time it was cast. Might be best to just take another spell instead.
Well, when the condition is met the spell fades. The person acting on the Suggestion will find themselves acting differently than they were previously. If it's a material situation, say a mount, then it would be apparent that something odd has happened. If it was something less obvious, say delivering a message to an enemy faction, it may go unnoticed. That part of your question is hinged on what the Suggestion requires and how immediate/apparent the impact of the action is.
If you really wanted to push the issue a Wisdom/Intelligence check could be rolled to see if they realize what's happened.
Suggestion in general is confusing, so commenting to follow thread.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
The more I read about the spell it seems like it needs a good trust bond between a DM and Player, either one party or the other is going to get annoyed with it.
I keep using the horse as an example because its the specific example listed in the spell. Which is starting to sound like they should either clarify how the knight would handle the spell afterword or change their example to be something less drastic. I warhorse can be expensive either 150 or 400 gold pieces. In their example, it sounds like the knight would just be giving it away for free with no issue. But even I have to admit, I wouldn't reasonably be giving away 150 to 400 gold pieces of anything way without feeling robbed.
Maybe I am just getting hung up on their example too much, and should probably just assume it is a terrible example for the spell. I don't know, the spell seems to make more sense if you exclude the example, because I can justify "reasonable" better. But once you include the example, it gets a little tougher for me to wrap my head around. Because with the included example, it seems reasonable is something that the target can't justify not to do because it doesn't physically harm them to do so. But if that is the condition of reasonable than the spell is really powerful.
The spell is that powerful.
To the bad guy trying to kill me:
"Go to the nearest church in town and tell them you've decided to devote yourself to their cause."
"Head back into town and, when you see a guard, confess your crimes."
"Walk to Neverwinter, donate your gold to the first pauper you come across."
"Head to Daggerfall, drop your weapons down the first well you find."
All of those do not cause harm to the person, all of them sound reasonable, and each of them has a very significant effect on the outcome of the spell. It could be argued that the second example would be an improper example if the law of the land is death for the crimes, but that's the only one that has that potential.
My thought is that the subject wouldn't necessarily know they had been under the influence of a Suggestion spell (or any spell), but they would remember you giving them the suggestion and then them acting on the suggestion.
In the example of the knight, he would remember you telling him to give his warhorse to the next beggar he saw, and would remember giving his horse to the beggar. Since that was the end of your suggestion to him he would be standing right next to the beggar when the spell end and would probably take back his horse and go looking for you. If you wanted the beggar to keep the horse better to give the knight the suggestion to give his horse to a beggar and then go to the castle or something like that.
I get the idea behind the spell, my problem is what happens once the spell technically ends. Using your examples:
"Go to the nearest church in town and tell them you've decided to devote yourself to their cause." - Does he have to follow this or once he says that can he be like, naw some crazy ass bad made me say that?
"Walk to Neverwinter, donate your gold to the first pauper you come across." - What would stop him from just killing the beggar and taking his gold back after he had completed the suggestion?
I get the idea that the spell will cause them to do that, but will they rationalize their action or will they just be like, **** that and take their stuff back?
The spell seems easy if it is something like, "Go stand in that corner until I ask you to stop", Easy enough here because there really isn't anything gained or lost in that transaction besides time. My question is, with Suggestion what happens when there is a cost on that request. For example, What if I asked the guards to open the gate and let me enter. After I entered what is stopping them from just following me in and arresting me? Is it because they felt as though I was allowed entry because they opened the gate and let me in. Or no they totally come in and arrest me? What if I ask a tavern owner to let me have a room for the night. Would they come in and kick me out as soon as I went to sleep because my concentration would be broken or would the feel as they gave me the room for the night and let me stay.
My problem with this spell is they tell you how it will work as someone is under the influence of the spell. But unlike Charm Person or Friends they don't give you any examples of how the person will act once the suggestion has been completed.
In the end it's DM fiat because there is no specific answer to this. You have just as much right to say that the npc will kill the beggar and take the money back as you do saying that the action is justified by some rewiring in the brain from the spell.
You're right. I was confusing the specific rules for spells like Charm Person and Friends with a general rule regarding "mind-affecting spells". The target would not know they were under the spell, although they might deduce it from seeing and/or hearing you cast it (given the V and M components). If there is no such perception involved (Sorcerer using Subtle Spell and hiding while casting, the target being deafened and either blinded or not within line of sight of the caster at the moment of casting (they still need to be able to hear the actual suggestion), etc.), then there is very little chance the target will know they'd been affected by the spell. In that case, they'd remember having heard you make the suggestion, and remember having performed the action, but shouldn't think themselves being forced to do so in any way.
Bear in mind, the spell requires the suggestion be worded in such a way as to sound reasonable, so, if done during combat, simply "stop attacking us" usually shouldn't work. "Let's parlay instead of fighting" probably should, though. In the example of the knight giving their horse to the first beggar, they wouldn't consider it robbery. They might consider it an extreme act of kindness, or a moment of weakness, or a bad decision, and might even be suspicious as to why they're doing something so odd for their character, just after that wizard guy suggested they do so... but unless and until they become convinced the wizard made them do it, they wouldn't consider it robbery.