i have put a vault in a building and one of my players is planning on just using the knock spell and open it up ..... beyond the sound the spell makes is there anything that can be done to prohibit this from happening ? It’s magically sealed with an arcane lock giving it a 35 dc which is impossible for them to open at this point .... but if they cast knock twice it just opens
First, don't tell them that their knock is suppressing an arcane lock. Second, the door can have multiple locks on it. Third, there should be some sort of security in the form of living creatures, if they kill everyone on the way in, let them have the vault. Remember, finding out who broke into your vault and where they are is a fairly easy problem for someone with enough wealth to have a vault.
As a DM, why would you want to prohibit this from happening? Is there some other key/quest clue that the party is supposed to use to open this arcane lock on a vault in a building, and if so, have you exposed them to this? As is, it sounds like knock is a pretty reasonable 2nd attempt (assuming lockpicking doesn't work :) as a way to get through such a barrier.
You could add guards, alarms etc, but ultimately, what is your goal from this encounter? two cast Knock twice, they would use 2 level 2 spell slots, depending on the character level and what else you have before or after that encounter, that could be meaningful as those are character resources.
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"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
You are the DM. If you don't want Knock to be able to open this vault then it doesn't. If they cast it then maybe you could give the party information to reward the effort: "You feel a slight shifting in the arcane protections on the vault, but you don't think this spell is strong enough to break it. This feels like a ward like the Svirfneblin use, which requires a specific runestone and a magic password to unlock. A higher-level casting of Knock might be able to replace one of these elements, but not both."
the players were given a magical key that allowed them to open 3 doors. they used it and retrieved the acquired artifact from a vault ... now the murder hobo wizard/rogue wants to go around and steal everything else. Knocking open all of the other vaults to loot the contents...
Knock is a 2nd level spell. Is he planning on using all of his spell slots to open every single vault? That will take time and if he does that I'd just have guards who are high enough level to successfully capture the party show up before he finishes his looting spree to arrest them and throw them into a jail that's been enchanted with a permanent Antimagic Field. Problem solved.
"OK, all of the guards in the castle/bank are alerted."
Okay, so...just to point this out because I've never really paid attention to this, but...
Knock can be heard three times as far away as Thunderclap, and equally as far as Thunderous Smite and Thunder Wave. Seems excessive, on one end or the either. But anyway, to the point...
Knock opens one lock at a time. What you need is
Multiple locks on the door--even just two.
A hidden mechanism (spell or mechanical) that locks one of the locks every time another one is unlocked.
The mechanism is not itself a lock--it doesn't keep the door closed, there's nothing about the mechanism to 'open'. It is literally just a linkage connecting the two bolts of the other locks--one goes out, the other one gets pushed in.
The key hole to disable the hidden mechanism is located on the wall behind a statue 50 feet away.
So they can cast Knock on the door as much as they want, and they'll hear a loud click each time from the door, and each time the door won't open. :)
For fun, you can do something similar for a more common lock that's just intended as a small obstacle. A door with seven locks--you can figure out how to trigger each one, but you can't tell whether you're triggering it locked or unlocked. And the door starts with only some of them locked. And you don't know how many :)
"OK, all of the guards in the castle/bank are alerted."
Okay, so...just to point this out because I've never really paid attention to this, but...
Knock can be heard three times as far away as Thunderclap, and equally as far as Thunderous Smite and Thunder Wave. Seems excessive, on one end or the either. But anyway, to the point...
I think its safe to presume that this was done, along with other changes from previous editions like specifying that Invisibility isn't an automatic success on attempts to hide, to prevent spellcasters from being better at thieving than Thieves (or better at fighting than Fighters...).
"OK, all of the guards in the castle/bank are alerted."
Okay, so...just to point this out because I've never really paid attention to this, but...
Knock can be heard three times as far away as Thunderclap, and equally as far as Thunderous Smite and Thunder Wave. Seems excessive, on one end or the either. But anyway, to the point...
I think its safe to presume that this was done, along with other changes from previous editions like specifying that Invisibility isn't an automatic success on attempts to hide, to prevent spellcasters from being better at thieving than Thieves (or better at fighting than Fighters...).
I agree, and that's not a bad motivation. Although, to a certain extent, someone with magic being able to do things better than someone without magic actually has to be a given. Otherwise why use magic. I'm just rolling my eyes at the comparative ranges that 'Knock' and 'THUNDERCLAP' can be heard from :)
I just can't help but envision a Dr. Evil "one million dollars!" moment when I read these 'Thunder' spells. "A spell so amazing and powerful, it can be heard for 300 feet!!!" (Almost as far as a normal speaking voice! lol)
Multiple locks and the need to spend a spell slot for each casting should help cut down on the problem. There is also that loud noise, and the possibility of regular guard patrols.
Knock spells are also well known. I am sure that anyone who has something they really want to keep secure will have taken some precautions against the use of Knock spells, including the possibility of physical or magical traps o or around the locked door that is going to be opened by the Knock spell.
Adding more locks to a chamber just to prevent Knock seems a bit unfair. Let them open it, see the treasure but note a force field or something-unknockable that they need to deal with. Or give them the warning of thunderous footsteps coming their way as the knock spell echoes down the corridors to give them the option of fleeing with whatever they can grab in 6 seconds or risking getting cornered by guards.
I feel like if you're telling the players there is a vault there, it should be accessible in some way and not meta-protected for plot reasons. Sure, you can deter them but it should be an option to go raiding.
Why is adding more locks unfair? I have 2 different locks on the front door of my house and there isn't anything in my house that's super valuable, one deadbolt and one in the door handle. I don't know the details because I've never worked in one, but I do know that bank vaults have more than just one locked door that you have to go through to get into their vaults and safety deposit boxes all have 2 locks on them. I'd expect multiple locks on a vault that has a lot of valuables in it!
Adding more locks to a chamber just to prevent Knock seems a bit unfair. Let them open it, see the treasure but note a force field or something-unknockable that they need to deal with. Or give them the warning of thunderous footsteps coming their way as the knock spell echoes down the corridors to give them the option of fleeing with whatever they can grab in 6 seconds or risking getting cornered by guards.
I feel like if you're telling the players there is a vault there, it should be accessible in some way and not meta-protected for plot reasons. Sure, you can deter them but it should be an option to go raiding.
It's protected by multiple locks, and some of them clever and hard to open, because the owner of the vault knows that they live in a world where the Knock spell exists.
What do you expect people to do? Just shrug and say "Well, wizards know Knock, no possible way I can actually protect my stuff. So I'll just throw a single lock on there to stop the non magic types and call it a day."
Protecting that vault so it's a big challenge now and might require a quest or more effort to open isn't a 'meta' reason, it's a plot reason.
RE: Locks - at first I assumed the vault is in someone's mansion, but I see from later comments it might be some bank-like facility(?). Extra locks are fine, but if you're worried about people taking knock into account in this universe wouldn't considering other means of protecting their valuables make more sense? They would no doubt cover it in alarms, have some defences, etc. They have the money to do so. Maybe they would disguise the vault so its not even obviously a treasure.
Whilst sticking a few more locks on it might be the obvious IRL fix I feel it does a magical world a huge disservice. Agree to disagree.
RE: Locks - at first I assumed the vault is in someone's mansion, but I see from later comments it might be some bank-like facility(?). Extra locks are fine, but if you're worried about people taking knock into account in this universe wouldn't considering other means of protecting their valuables make more sense? They would no doubt cover it in alarms, have some defences, etc. They have the money to do so. Maybe they would disguise the vault so its not even obviously a treasure.
Whilst sticking a few more locks on it might be the obvious IRL fix I feel it does a magical world a huge disservice. Agree to disagree.
I agree that someone might take other methods to protect as well. But I just don't see what you mean by doing the magical world a disservice.
From the in-game perspective, the vault owner is hoping to do a disservice to anyone magically trying to break into the vault :) I don't see why someone, for very plausible in-game reasons, trying to thwart magical solutions to problems as being in any way unfair to the players. Why should magic be able to just solve everything easily? Does the skill and tactics of simply selecting the Knock spell when you level up mean that locks should no longer be a challenge at all?
You and I, being in the real world, might see magic as 'the easy solution' to everything. If only I could cast even one cantrip, my life would be ridiculously easier than it is now. But in a world full of magic, being able to cast any particular spell isn't going to make everything you want to do easy.
This isn't a huge deal of course, I just don't see it as in any way meta gaming or unfair. It's another challenge to the players, that's all. :)
i have put a vault in a building and one of my players is planning on just using the knock spell and open it up ..... beyond the sound the spell makes is there anything that can be done to prohibit this from happening ? It’s magically sealed with an arcane lock giving it a 35 dc which is impossible for them to open at this point .... but if they cast knock twice it just opens
First, don't tell them that their knock is suppressing an arcane lock. Second, the door can have multiple locks on it. Third, there should be some sort of security in the form of living creatures, if they kill everyone on the way in, let them have the vault. Remember, finding out who broke into your vault and where they are is a fairly easy problem for someone with enough wealth to have a vault.
As a DM, why would you want to prohibit this from happening? Is there some other key/quest clue that the party is supposed to use to open this arcane lock on a vault in a building, and if so, have you exposed them to this? As is, it sounds like knock is a pretty reasonable 2nd attempt (assuming lockpicking doesn't work :) as a way to get through such a barrier.
You could add guards, alarms etc, but ultimately, what is your goal from this encounter? two cast Knock twice, they would use 2 level 2 spell slots, depending on the character level and what else you have before or after that encounter, that could be meaningful as those are character resources.
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
You are the DM. If you don't want Knock to be able to open this vault then it doesn't. If they cast it then maybe you could give the party information to reward the effort: "You feel a slight shifting in the arcane protections on the vault, but you don't think this spell is strong enough to break it. This feels like a ward like the Svirfneblin use, which requires a specific runestone and a magic password to unlock. A higher-level casting of Knock might be able to replace one of these elements, but not both."
the players were given a magical key that allowed them to open 3 doors. they used it and retrieved the acquired artifact from a vault ... now the murder hobo wizard/rogue wants to go around and steal everything else. Knocking open all of the other vaults to loot the contents...
Knock is a 2nd level spell. Is he planning on using all of his spell slots to open every single vault? That will take time and if he does that I'd just have guards who are high enough level to successfully capture the party show up before he finishes his looting spree to arrest them and throw them into a jail that's been enchanted with a permanent Antimagic Field. Problem solved.
Professional computer geek
The sound can be heard from 300 feet away.
"OK, all of the guards in the castle/bank are alerted."
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Okay, so...just to point this out because I've never really paid attention to this, but...
Knock can be heard three times as far away as Thunderclap, and equally as far as Thunderous Smite and Thunder Wave. Seems excessive, on one end or the either. But anyway, to the point...
Knock opens one lock at a time. What you need is
So they can cast Knock on the door as much as they want, and they'll hear a loud click each time from the door, and each time the door won't open. :)
For fun, you can do something similar for a more common lock that's just intended as a small obstacle. A door with seven locks--you can figure out how to trigger each one, but you can't tell whether you're triggering it locked or unlocked. And the door starts with only some of them locked. And you don't know how many :)
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
I think its safe to presume that this was done, along with other changes from previous editions like specifying that Invisibility isn't an automatic success on attempts to hide, to prevent spellcasters from being better at thieving than Thieves (or better at fighting than Fighters...).
I agree, and that's not a bad motivation. Although, to a certain extent, someone with magic being able to do things better than someone without magic actually has to be a given. Otherwise why use magic. I'm just rolling my eyes at the comparative ranges that 'Knock' and 'THUNDERCLAP' can be heard from :)
I just can't help but envision a Dr. Evil "one million dollars!" moment when I read these 'Thunder' spells. "A spell so amazing and powerful, it can be heard for 300 feet!!!" (Almost as far as a normal speaking voice! lol)
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Multiple locks and the need to spend a spell slot for each casting should help cut down on the problem. There is also that loud noise, and the possibility of regular guard patrols.
Knock spells are also well known. I am sure that anyone who has something they really want to keep secure will have taken some precautions against the use of Knock spells, including the possibility of physical or magical traps o or around the locked door that is going to be opened by the Knock spell.
Adding more locks to a chamber just to prevent Knock seems a bit unfair. Let them open it, see the treasure but note a force field or something-unknockable that they need to deal with. Or give them the warning of thunderous footsteps coming their way as the knock spell echoes down the corridors to give them the option of fleeing with whatever they can grab in 6 seconds or risking getting cornered by guards.
I feel like if you're telling the players there is a vault there, it should be accessible in some way and not meta-protected for plot reasons. Sure, you can deter them but it should be an option to go raiding.
Why is adding more locks unfair? I have 2 different locks on the front door of my house and there isn't anything in my house that's super valuable, one deadbolt and one in the door handle. I don't know the details because I've never worked in one, but I do know that bank vaults have more than just one locked door that you have to go through to get into their vaults and safety deposit boxes all have 2 locks on them. I'd expect multiple locks on a vault that has a lot of valuables in it!
Professional computer geek
It's protected by multiple locks, and some of them clever and hard to open, because the owner of the vault knows that they live in a world where the Knock spell exists.
What do you expect people to do? Just shrug and say "Well, wizards know Knock, no possible way I can actually protect my stuff. So I'll just throw a single lock on there to stop the non magic types and call it a day."
Protecting that vault so it's a big challenge now and might require a quest or more effort to open isn't a 'meta' reason, it's a plot reason.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
RE: Locks - at first I assumed the vault is in someone's mansion, but I see from later comments it might be some bank-like facility(?). Extra locks are fine, but if you're worried about people taking knock into account in this universe wouldn't considering other means of protecting their valuables make more sense? They would no doubt cover it in alarms, have some defences, etc. They have the money to do so. Maybe they would disguise the vault so its not even obviously a treasure.
Whilst sticking a few more locks on it might be the obvious IRL fix I feel it does a magical world a huge disservice. Agree to disagree.
I agree that someone might take other methods to protect as well. But I just don't see what you mean by doing the magical world a disservice.
From the in-game perspective, the vault owner is hoping to do a disservice to anyone magically trying to break into the vault :) I don't see why someone, for very plausible in-game reasons, trying to thwart magical solutions to problems as being in any way unfair to the players. Why should magic be able to just solve everything easily? Does the skill and tactics of simply selecting the Knock spell when you level up mean that locks should no longer be a challenge at all?
You and I, being in the real world, might see magic as 'the easy solution' to everything. If only I could cast even one cantrip, my life would be ridiculously easier than it is now. But in a world full of magic, being able to cast any particular spell isn't going to make everything you want to do easy.
This isn't a huge deal of course, I just don't see it as in any way meta gaming or unfair. It's another challenge to the players, that's all. :)
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)