I have a player in my campaign who was Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 5 / Wizard 1 and he just leveled up to 7 so he was going to pick a second level of Wizard. It looks like he has two level 2 spell slots, but he is unable to pick any spells from higher than level 1 in either the rogue or the wizard spell selection options. It seems like if he has two level 2 spell slots, he should be able to pick level 2 spells to use those slots on, yeah?
Am I misunderstanding the way spell progression should work with this character or is this a bug in D&D Beyond?
Nevermind :) I worked it out. Neither Rogue 5 nor Wizard 2 has level 2 spells. So even though he for some reason has level 2 spell slots, he can only upcast level 1 spells until he either gets Rogue 7 or Wizard 3.
The lvl 2 spell slots are a result of the multiclass spell slot table from the PHB. The player in question is getting 2 levels of spellcasting from his 2 levels in Wizard, but also gets 1 level from Arcane Trickster, counting at 1/3 of actual level (5/3=1.6666 rounded down to 1). The table gives a level 3 multi-caster 4 level 1 slots and 2 level 2 slots.
The multiclass rules will also tell you that multiclassing will grant you more spell slots, but the spells you can learn or prepare are based on each class's feature chart. (You more or less came to the right conclusion (congratulations, some people bug report it...), but it is good to see the official rule.)
So while neither Rogue 5 nor Wizard 2 has access to level 2 spells, he does have level 2 spell slots. He is asking if he can use his option to switch out a spell to pick up a level 2 spell.
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an enchantment or illusion spell, unless you're replacing the spell you learned at 8th, 14th, or 20th level. (PHB pp 98)
My gut tells me this doesn't feel right, but so far I have not found anything indicating it's not allowed in the rules. Maybe it's ok?
So while neither Rogue 5 nor Wizard 2 has access to level 2 spells, he does have level 2 spell slots. He is asking if he can use his option to switch out a spell to pick up a level 2 spell... Maybe it's ok?
Nope. For all purposes of learning or preparing spells you treat each class completely separately. He is not a level 7 character; he is just a level 5 Rogue and also a level 2 Wizard. If a level 5 Rogue couldn't learn the spell, and a level 2 Wizard couldn't, then the multiclass combo also can't. There are no special tricks or rules-lawyer arguments that get around this.
The multiclass rules will also tell you that multiclassing will grant you more spell slots, but the spells you can learn or prepare are based on each class's feature chart. (You more or less came to the right conclusion (congratulations, some people bug report it...), but it is good to see the official rule.)
And here is the rule to which I was referring:
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
OK, I get that and I accept that. The fact that he gets level 2 spell slots at all needlessly adds confusion to something that should be straightforward. It's just really weird that he can cast level 2 spells, but he just doesn't have access to any of them.
Multiclassing is not straightforward. Multiclass spellcasting even less so.
If they got the spell slots separately from each class then they would end up with eight lvl 1 slots and other such nonsense. If they got shared slots and could learn spells regardless of their level in that specific class you would have crazy shit like 17th level Druids taking one level of Wizard to access Wish. Instead you get high-level Wizard spells only by being a high-level Wizard. The complexity is absolutely needed to keep the classes and multiclasses even vaguely balanced.
I also want to point out that the multiclassing rules suck for partial casters. The spell slots for single-classed paladins, rangers, eldritch knights and arcane tricksters are determined by dividing their level by 2 or 3 and rounding up, but the multiclassing rules round down. That means on any level that's not divisible by 3, an arcane trickster that's multiclassed into another spellcasting class loses 1 caster level due to rounding down. So they lose progress towards learning higher level spells and they're not even getting that extra spell slot from their first wizard level either.
As InquisitiveCoder mentioned, the multiclass rules for partial casters are terrible and should be errata'd IMHO. It gets even worse with 2 partial casters as both round down separately. So a level 5 Arcane Trickster / 5 Eldritch Knight has spell slots as a level 2 caster.
That aside, you don't need to know any second level spells to use second level spell slots. You can upcast the spells you know to second level, which will make many of them better.
OK, I get that and I accept that. The fact that he gets level 2 spell slots at all needlessly adds confusion to something that should be straightforward. It's just really weird that he can cast level 2 spells, but he just doesn't have access to any of them.
Eh, it actually does make sense, but they could definitely do a better job explaining. The idea is that spell slots represent a character's innate well of magical power. While an MC character may be splitting their studies to divergent methods of harnessing/manifesting power (specific casting classes/spells), the amount of power they have to draw from continues to increase.
It's an especially important distinction as higher level spells themselves are no longer the only means for a caster to stay "competitive" in combat. You can upcast most spells to increase their effect. While an MC character may not have the highest level of individual spells, they can cast the spells they do know very well.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If you are a level 5 arcane trickster and a level 5 eldritch knight, then you are a glutton for punishment.
Maybe, but there's still no reason why the system should take away spell slots just because you multiclassed. A multiclassed character should be at least the sum of their parts. Sometimes that sum won't be as great as a single-classed character or a better multiclass combination with more synergy, but you shouldn't end up with less than you put in!
It's an especially important distinction as higher level spells themselves are no longer the only means for a caster to stay "competitive" in combat. You can upcast most spells to increase their effect. While an MC character may not have the highest level of individual spells, they can cast the spells they do know very well.
Right. It's a middle ground between the power of a single-classed spellcaster, and an alternate universe where the multiclassing rules don't let your spell slots progress. Upcasting is almost never as good as having a higher level spell, but it beats not having the option to upcast at all. It's similar to how cantrips scale with character level; if they didn't do that, they'd become irrelevant.
I suppose the morale of the story is that if you're a partial caster multiclass, make sure you end up on the divisor.
That and ideally delay multiclassing as much as possible so you don't get penalized while you're still on the way to a divisible level if you don't have to.
On that note, the latest artificer revision actually rounds its levels up when multiclassing, while the version from 3 months ago rounded down, so it seems Jeremy and the rest of the design team became aware of the problem. Maybe there's still hope for errata in the future.
I have a player in my campaign who was Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 5 / Wizard 1 and he just leveled up to 7 so he was going to pick a second level of Wizard. It looks like he has two level 2 spell slots, but he is unable to pick any spells from higher than level 1 in either the rogue or the wizard spell selection options. It seems like if he has two level 2 spell slots, he should be able to pick level 2 spells to use those slots on, yeah?
Am I misunderstanding the way spell progression should work with this character or is this a bug in D&D Beyond?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Nevermind :) I worked it out. Neither Rogue 5 nor Wizard 2 has level 2 spells. So even though he for some reason has level 2 spell slots, he can only upcast level 1 spells until he either gets Rogue 7 or Wizard 3.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The lvl 2 spell slots are a result of the multiclass spell slot table from the PHB. The player in question is getting 2 levels of spellcasting from his 2 levels in Wizard, but also gets 1 level from Arcane Trickster, counting at 1/3 of actual level (5/3=1.6666 rounded down to 1). The table gives a level 3 multi-caster 4 level 1 slots and 2 level 2 slots.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/customization-options#MulticlassSpellcaster
The multiclass rules will also tell you that multiclassing will grant you more spell slots, but the spells you can learn or prepare are based on each class's feature chart. (You more or less came to the right conclusion (congratulations, some people bug report it...), but it is good to see the official rule.)
So while neither Rogue 5 nor Wizard 2 has access to level 2 spells, he does have level 2 spell slots. He is asking if he can use his option to switch out a spell to pick up a level 2 spell.
My gut tells me this doesn't feel right, but so far I have not found anything indicating it's not allowed in the rules. Maybe it's ok?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Nope. For all purposes of learning or preparing spells you treat each class completely separately. He is not a level 7 character; he is just a level 5 Rogue and also a level 2 Wizard. If a level 5 Rogue couldn't learn the spell, and a level 2 Wizard couldn't, then the multiclass combo also can't. There are no special tricks or rules-lawyer arguments that get around this.
You must have overlooked part (all? the important part at least) of my comment.
And here is the rule to which I was referring:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/customization-options#Spellcasting
OK, I get that and I accept that. The fact that he gets level 2 spell slots at all needlessly adds confusion to something that should be straightforward. It's just really weird that he can cast level 2 spells, but he just doesn't have access to any of them.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Multiclassing is not straightforward. Multiclass spellcasting even less so.
If they got the spell slots separately from each class then they would end up with eight lvl 1 slots and other such nonsense. If they got shared slots and could learn spells regardless of their level in that specific class you would have crazy shit like 17th level Druids taking one level of Wizard to access Wish. Instead you get high-level Wizard spells only by being a high-level Wizard. The complexity is absolutely needed to keep the classes and multiclasses even vaguely balanced.
I also want to point out that the multiclassing rules suck for partial casters. The spell slots for single-classed paladins, rangers, eldritch knights and arcane tricksters are determined by dividing their level by 2 or 3 and rounding up, but the multiclassing rules round down. That means on any level that's not divisible by 3, an arcane trickster that's multiclassed into another spellcasting class loses 1 caster level due to rounding down. So they lose progress towards learning higher level spells and they're not even getting that extra spell slot from their first wizard level either.
As InquisitiveCoder mentioned, the multiclass rules for partial casters are terrible and should be errata'd IMHO. It gets even worse with 2 partial casters as both round down separately. So a level 5 Arcane Trickster / 5 Eldritch Knight has spell slots as a level 2 caster.
That aside, you don't need to know any second level spells to use second level spell slots. You can upcast the spells you know to second level, which will make many of them better.
If you are a level 5 arcane trickster and a level 5 eldritch knight, then you are a glutton for punishment.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Eh, it actually does make sense, but they could definitely do a better job explaining. The idea is that spell slots represent a character's innate well of magical power. While an MC character may be splitting their studies to divergent methods of harnessing/manifesting power (specific casting classes/spells), the amount of power they have to draw from continues to increase.
It's an especially important distinction as higher level spells themselves are no longer the only means for a caster to stay "competitive" in combat. You can upcast most spells to increase their effect. While an MC character may not have the highest level of individual spells, they can cast the spells they do know very well.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Maybe, but there's still no reason why the system should take away spell slots just because you multiclassed. A multiclassed character should be at least the sum of their parts. Sometimes that sum won't be as great as a single-classed character or a better multiclass combination with more synergy, but you shouldn't end up with less than you put in!
Right. It's a middle ground between the power of a single-classed spellcaster, and an alternate universe where the multiclassing rules don't let your spell slots progress. Upcasting is almost never as good as having a higher level spell, but it beats not having the option to upcast at all. It's similar to how cantrips scale with character level; if they didn't do that, they'd become irrelevant.
If I remember correctly this was discussed on this episode of Dragon Talk.
I suppose the moral of the story is that if you're a partial caster multiclass, make sure you end up on the divisor.
EDIT: spelling
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That and ideally delay multiclassing as much as possible so you don't get penalized while you're still on the way to a divisible level if you don't have to.
On that note, the latest artificer revision actually rounds its levels up when multiclassing, while the version from 3 months ago rounded down, so it seems Jeremy and the rest of the design team became aware of the problem. Maybe there's still hope for errata in the future.