Epic magic is extremely rare these days, but is there a way for a mortal PC to bypass the weave, and weild truly epic magic, the kind that the Netherese Arcanists used to weild at the hight of their power?
Maybe with extremely strict conditions. So they can use 10th and 11th and 12th level magic, but only in certain circumstances, and after certain conditions have been met.
I don't want this PC to be able to just weild epic magic like it was nothing but I do want them to be able to weild it.
Like maybe if they were to sacrifice say 5 years of their lifespan, they could weild 10th level magic for an hour, 10 years, 11th level magic, 15 years, 12th level magic and they had to pick the spell they wanted to use, and could only use that one spell at epic levels.
They could choose another spell, but they'd have to sacrifice more of their life, to cast another.
Maybe if they sacrificed their entire life,could they weild 1 spell at 12th level, whose effects were permanent unless undone by a 12th level counter spell.
Is this something that a mortal can do, or is it not even possible?
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I am an online author and sci-fi lover who plays table too roleplaying games in his free time. See all my character concepts at: Character Bios – Jays Blog (jaytelford.me)
Social, there is no official rules on above 20th level play or 10th+ magic. Previous editions did and I mention them side by side because they were linked - it required beyond 20th level play.
2nd edition included realms netherese empire setting material and it covered some 10th level spells, I dont know if you can find it but its out there.
3rd had the epic level hand book, they did away with 10th+ spells introducing 'seeds' that 21'st + mages could use to build 'epic spells (although, fair warning so much of that book didnt work at all) That might help you.
In lore / game terms, Karsus died because of his spell and the God of magic at the time banned all use of 10th+ magic right then and there. The issue past game mechanics you would need to introduce is that the current goddess of magic would probably enforce that edict with fatal results.
If you can find a copy of it the 2nd edition Birthright supplement might offer you what you need, epic level spell casting with a mechanic that makes it almost improbable to achieve and turns even the most social of mages into lunatics living alone in the wilds - and fiercely antagonistic of anyone encroaching on it.
Summary: No official rules. Old edition material had parts you could harvest to build on.
#I would advise you to think carefully about introducing epic magic into a game where those without magic are playing - the vast gulf that will between casters /noncaster when encounters come down to 'I cast Oblivion' makes non caster play lacklustre, especially so if the players were unaware this would occur going into the campaign.
Magic in the forgotten realms requires the weave. Mystra put a limit on the amount of the weave that could be influenced by any individual creature. Multiple high level spellcasters working together can possibly cast epic level spells.
There are naturally magical creatures that don't use the weave, such as Dragon's breath, elementals, beholders, etc.
So if they are a Warlock of a dragon god or a half dragon or something, would they be able to cast magic not using the weave, or would they have to use the weave regardless
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I am an online author and sci-fi lover who plays table too roleplaying games in his free time. See all my character concepts at: Character Bios – Jays Blog (jaytelford.me)
So if they are a Warlock of a dragon god or a half dragon or something, would they be able to cast magic not using the weave, or would they have to use the weave regardless
That comment was specifically referring to the Breath Weapon attack of Dragons (and, by extension, Dragonborn). It is considered a magical attack, but they are not actually casting any spells. They are exploiting a feature of their biology the allows them to expel fire/acid/cold/whatever from their mouths.
There are naturally magical creatures that don't use the weave, such as Dragon's breath, elementals, beholders, etc.
All forms of magic uses the weave in 5e, whether it's a spell or not. This is mentioned in the Player's Handbook chapter on spellcasting. (Also, a dragon's breath isn't magical.)
There are naturally magical creatures that don't use the weave, such as Dragon's breath, elementals, beholders, etc.
All forms of magic uses the weave in 5e, whether it's a spell or not. This is mentioned in the Player's Handbook chapter on spellcasting. (Also, a dragon's breath isn't magical.)
Could have sworn I heard some lore that dragons and elementals taped into raw magic of the elemental planes. At the very least that does not appear to be true for rules purposes.
So if they are a Warlock of a dragon god or a half dragon or something, would they be able to cast magic not using the weave, or would they have to use the weave regardless
All spellcasting requires the weave. Even Dragon wizards/sorcerers use the weave for spells. And any sort of warlock magic will use the same medium for its spells as well.
Social, In the Realms the goddess of magic controls the weave. (unlike other game worlds) It doesnt matter what is bothering with magic it has to obey her rules for the weave. A cleric warlock / dragon hippowizard still couldnt manipulate the lore as they arent the god of magic. Fun lore fact, Karsus died because his spell tried to usurp the role of the god of magic for himself, he blew up in a few seconds and in those seconds magic failed, all the netherese flying cities crashed, that broke the empire. So to get round the restriction would be calamitously traumatic.
That being said third edition (dont know about 4th) introduce Shar the goddess of night sneaking in with a shadow weave, burning up her energy to make a dark mirror of the weave to subvert Midnight/Mystra's monopoly and give her a shot at stealing her portfolio. The results of that, and her presumable epic fail werent resolved before 4th came out as far as I can recollect so I cant speak for what happened in the end. The short term was that mages using the shadow weave cropped up. Even then they wouldnt be able to use epic 10th+ spells unless shar was prepared to take the hit in power and again in hiding the signature from Mystra.
DxJxC. I understand your confusion about dragons in regard to I.C.s comment. The monster manual text describes dragons as magical beings who fuel their breath with their inherent magic. But because it doesnt say in the stat block that a dragons fire / lightning that defies the path of least resistance / a strangely propelled stream of acid, is magical I.C. asserts its non magical science based regularly occurring elemental stuff and so ignores antimagic shell.
It seems that magic is bound to tightly with the weave, that there is no escaping it's laws. That is a shame because I had really wanted to give a character the ability to cast spells at epic levels.
Spell casters in 5e, seem so weak compared to their earlier counterparts. They take a hit in terms of true combat effectiveness and lack the specialisations of earlier editions.
It's almost like they have been relegated exclusively to behind the scenes support/healing/social roles for melee or close quarters combat characters.
Low level spell casters in 5e are so squishy and weak, they get little better at higher levels because they get spells that do large amounts of damage in nova type attacks, but even those nova attacks at one trick ponies. One strike, and you're done and if your oponants makes the save, you've wasted your chance.
It gets even worse for Spellcasters when you eventually get barbarians with +3 greatswords, or rogues with sneak attack and +3 poison or magical daggers, and things ike that.
So in short, I am somewhat sad that there is no way at all to get around the weave and it's laws and allow spell casters to weild the kind of power that it feels like they should, considering they are masters of magic.
I am an online author and sci-fi lover who plays table too roleplaying games in his free time. See all my character concepts at: Character Bios – Jays Blog (jaytelford.me)
Game balance issues. I'm not always a fan of them myself, but it seems that having everybody feel like they can contribute meaningfully to one of the "three pillars" is important to keeping as many players satisfied as possible. Happier players means more game sales, etc.
Social, If this is in response to percieved weakness in wizards and sorcerers, dont worry they arent weak they just cant throw spells like candy on a halloween night. Each cast must be weighed and measured on its effect. As Song said a lot of it is trying to make the classes more closely tied to a level output.
Sorcerers macguffin is sorcery points - they can make an already amazing spell a battle ender if your choices and timing is correct.
Wizards macguffin is they have rituals which are support based, the largest potential of spells known to prep from and at the last few levels two spells they can cast like cantrips
So if you cant resist casting a spell every round you will be out of spells in 1 or 2 encounters unless your spell ended it in one cast. This is what cantrips are there for, filling up the rounds with average damage attacks in line with a set level that is below a cookie cutter weapon damage dealer. Clever play is generally rewarded regardless of class, and when you start getting devious with an arsenal of spells at your disposal then what cant you do?
I feel the need to add that support role casting is much less likely in 5th. Most support spells require concentration and that prevents you helping two people. It reinforces that if you have armoured / armed an ally with magic your very likely to be falling back on cantrips whilst they do their thing.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I love playing magic users and I love to be a DM for games, where a lot of the players at the table are bringing magic users.
In general, I just love magic.
Whenever I play a magic user though, it seems that I am playing a balancing act. Do I use one of my spell slots, knowing that the barbarian is going next and might deal enough damage to kill the enemy, or do I try to do something else instead.
Invariably I always end up using my cantrips, because I don't want to waste my spell slots. Using cantrips like Acid Splash to do 1 to 4d6; or Ray of Frost, to deal 1 to 4d8 damage.
Or I act as the bait, to lure the enemy into an ambush, where my parties melee attackers can do their thing, while I run away, so that I don't get hit and risk loosing the few Hit Points that I have, and dying.
Because I usually have high scores in one of the social stats, I tend to be really good at behind the scenes stuff. If my party needs to investigate some person or some place, where there won't be combat, I do that. Or if they need to get information out of somebody, I do that, or need to lie to somebody, I'd do that.
Or I perform other utility tasks like shopping, maintaining the base, hideout or whatever.
I feel really constrained. I don't want to be a burden to my party and have to have them start healing me all the time because my HP is so low, and I don't want to waste what few good spells I have, because what if my party gets attached by a roving band of war orcs, before I have managed to recover my spell slots and they really need me to cast my offensive spells, or to use my spells to keep them healed or get them away from harm.
I am not the only one who feels this way either. I have had players that I have been DMing for, ask me if they can have more long or short rests than the the book technically advises, or the module calls for, because they feel like they are not able to play their magic users to their full potential.
They have these really powerful masters or magic that they feel should be able to do so much more than they actually are.
I am an online author and sci-fi lover who plays table too roleplaying games in his free time. See all my character concepts at: Character Bios – Jays Blog (jaytelford.me)
I agree there is a large tonal shift in the role of the wizard (and sorcerer). The spells used to be big risk, big reward, but now seem big risk mediocre reward.
The melee classes have been changed so that they can decide to use their limited abilities after they see if they hit or crit. Casters can't - they use the ability and then see if it works. They seem to have been left behind in the tonal change of 5e. Having said that they are definitely more balanced and survivable at low levels. I liked the "advanced skill level" required to keep a wizard alive in previous editions however - leading to a powerful payoff at higher levels (if you could get there).
In regards to your main question however, I would look at creating rituals. Most of the spells that are official are written as battle spells - quick cast effects in the heat of battle. Given time and resources however maybe they can put together a custom ritual to do what they need to do. I would certainly be behind this as a DM. Eg Glass castle fortress of solitude style. No problem. 50k or 100k gold in reagents (maybe a quest to find some of the rare ones, or farm it out to an adventuring party), a year (or whatever the create artifact rules say in time) and it is done. Can add in extra casters for more money but reduced time.
Creates something special, but not unbalanced IMO. I would allow pocket dimensions and the like as well. Imagination is the limit, but there will be an in game cost.
I love playing magic users and I love to be a DM for games, where a lot of the players at the table are bringing magic users.
In general, I just love magic.
Whenever I play a magic user though, it seems that I am playing a balancing act. Do I use one of my spell slots, knowing that the barbarian is going next and might deal enough damage to kill the enemy, or do I try to do something else instead.
Invariably I always end up using my cantrips, because I don't want to waste my spell slots. Using cantrips like Acid Splash to do 1 to 4d6; or Ray of Frost, to deal 1 to 4d8 damage.
Or I act as the bait, to lure the enemy into an ambush, where my parties melee attackers can do their thing, while I run away, so that I don't get hit and risk loosing the few Hit Points that I have, and dying.
Because I usually have high scores in one of the social stats, I tend to be really good at behind the scenes stuff. If my party needs to investigate some person or some place, where there won't be combat, I do that. Or if they need to get information out of somebody, I do that, or need to lie to somebody, I'd do that.
Or I perform other utility tasks like shopping, maintaining the base, hideout or whatever.
I feel really constrained. I don't want to be a burden to my party and have to have them start healing me all the time because my HP is so low, and I don't want to waste what few good spells I have, because what if my party gets attached by a roving band of war orcs, before I have managed to recover my spell slots and they really need me to cast my offensive spells, or to use my spells to keep them healed or get them away from harm.
I am not the only one who feels this way either. I have had players that I have been DMing for, ask me if they can have more long or short rests than the the book technically advises, or the module calls for, because they feel like they are not able to play their magic users to their full potential.
They have these really powerful masters or magic that they feel should be able to do so much more than they actually are.
It sounds like this is a different issue than having access to higher level magic... Having higher tiers will still limit the number of times you can use them, and you'll still find yourself holding on to them wondering if it's the right time to use it - and when you do, and the Barbarian could have finished the enemy next turn, it'll still feel bad. It's the Elixir effect. :p
I'm not sure access to higher tiers will solve the issue, if you feel it's a big enough issue to homebrew solutions to it, you may want to look at other approaches to the issue.
Has anybody here tried a homebrew to permit 2 ongoing concentration spells at the same time, as long as they are on different targets?
Does this actually make spellcasters overpowered or just increase their risk-reward calculations?
I made a homebrew sorcerer subclass that could concentrate on 2 spells at level 18. I was assured by many comments that 2 concentration spells is overpowered, but I haven't been given any significant examples (best was Wall of stone and cloudkill)
I was thinking of permitting a feat that lets 2 concentration spells up at the same time, but one of them can only have one target, that target being the caster or an ally. That would prevent the Stinking Cloud+Wall of Water kinds of combos unless the players work together.
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Epic magic is extremely rare these days, but is there a way for a mortal PC to bypass the weave, and weild truly epic magic, the kind that the Netherese Arcanists used to weild at the hight of their power?
Maybe with extremely strict conditions. So they can use 10th and 11th and 12th level magic, but only in certain circumstances, and after certain conditions have been met.
I don't want this PC to be able to just weild epic magic like it was nothing but I do want them to be able to weild it.
Like maybe if they were to sacrifice say 5 years of their lifespan, they could weild 10th level magic for an hour, 10 years, 11th level magic, 15 years, 12th level magic and they had to pick the spell they wanted to use, and could only use that one spell at epic levels.
They could choose another spell, but they'd have to sacrifice more of their life, to cast another.
Maybe if they sacrificed their entire life,could they weild 1 spell at 12th level, whose effects were permanent unless undone by a 12th level counter spell.
Is this something that a mortal can do, or is it not even possible?
I am an online author and sci-fi lover who plays table too roleplaying games in his free time. See all my character concepts at: Character Bios – Jays Blog (jaytelford.me)
You'll have to ask your DM.
Social, there is no official rules on above 20th level play or 10th+ magic. Previous editions did and I mention them side by side because they were linked - it required beyond 20th level play.
2nd edition included realms netherese empire setting material and it covered some 10th level spells, I dont know if you can find it but its out there.
3rd had the epic level hand book, they did away with 10th+ spells introducing 'seeds' that 21'st + mages could use to build 'epic spells (although, fair warning so much of that book didnt work at all) That might help you.
In lore / game terms, Karsus died because of his spell and the God of magic at the time banned all use of 10th+ magic right then and there. The issue past game mechanics you would need to introduce is that the current goddess of magic would probably enforce that edict with fatal results.
If you can find a copy of it the 2nd edition Birthright supplement might offer you what you need, epic level spell casting with a mechanic that makes it almost improbable to achieve and turns even the most social of mages into lunatics living alone in the wilds - and fiercely antagonistic of anyone encroaching on it.
Summary: No official rules. Old edition material had parts you could harvest to build on.
#I would advise you to think carefully about introducing epic magic into a game where those without magic are playing - the vast gulf that will between casters /noncaster when encounters come down to 'I cast Oblivion' makes non caster play lacklustre, especially so if the players were unaware this would occur going into the campaign.
This sounds like something that would come up if WotC ever releases official Dark Sun material for 5th ed. Maybe Spelljammer as well.
Magic in the forgotten realms requires the weave. Mystra put a limit on the amount of the weave that could be influenced by any individual creature. Multiple high level spellcasters working together can possibly cast epic level spells.
There are naturally magical creatures that don't use the weave, such as Dragon's breath, elementals, beholders, etc.
So if they are a Warlock of a dragon god or a half dragon or something, would they be able to cast magic not using the weave, or would they have to use the weave regardless
I am an online author and sci-fi lover who plays table too roleplaying games in his free time. See all my character concepts at: Character Bios – Jays Blog (jaytelford.me)
That comment was specifically referring to the Breath Weapon attack of Dragons (and, by extension, Dragonborn). It is considered a magical attack, but they are not actually casting any spells. They are exploiting a feature of their biology the allows them to expel fire/acid/cold/whatever from their mouths.
All forms of magic uses the weave in 5e, whether it's a spell or not. This is mentioned in the Player's Handbook chapter on spellcasting. (Also, a dragon's breath isn't magical.)
Could have sworn I heard some lore that dragons and elementals taped into raw magic of the elemental planes. At the very least that does not appear to be true for rules purposes.
All spellcasting requires the weave. Even Dragon wizards/sorcerers use the weave for spells. And any sort of warlock magic will use the same medium for its spells as well.
Social, In the Realms the goddess of magic controls the weave. (unlike other game worlds) It doesnt matter what is bothering with magic it has to obey her rules for the weave. A cleric warlock / dragon hippowizard still couldnt manipulate the lore as they arent the god of magic. Fun lore fact, Karsus died because his spell tried to usurp the role of the god of magic for himself, he blew up in a few seconds and in those seconds magic failed, all the netherese flying cities crashed, that broke the empire. So to get round the restriction would be calamitously traumatic.
That being said third edition (dont know about 4th) introduce Shar the goddess of night sneaking in with a shadow weave, burning up her energy to make a dark mirror of the weave to subvert Midnight/Mystra's monopoly and give her a shot at stealing her portfolio. The results of that, and her presumable epic fail werent resolved before 4th came out as far as I can recollect so I cant speak for what happened in the end. The short term was that mages using the shadow weave cropped up. Even then they wouldnt be able to use epic 10th+ spells unless shar was prepared to take the hit in power and again in hiding the signature from Mystra.
DxJxC. I understand your confusion about dragons in regard to I.C.s comment. The monster manual text describes dragons as magical beings who fuel their breath with their inherent magic. But because it doesnt say in the stat block that a dragons fire / lightning that defies the path of least resistance / a strangely propelled stream of acid, is magical I.C. asserts its non magical science based regularly occurring elemental stuff and so ignores antimagic shell.
It seems that magic is bound to tightly with the weave, that there is no escaping it's laws. That is a shame because I had really wanted to give a character the ability to cast spells at epic levels.
Spell casters in 5e, seem so weak compared to their earlier counterparts. They take a hit in terms of true combat effectiveness and lack the specialisations of earlier editions.
It's almost like they have been relegated exclusively to behind the scenes support/healing/social roles for melee or close quarters combat characters.
Low level spell casters in 5e are so squishy and weak, they get little better at higher levels because they get spells that do large amounts of damage in nova type attacks, but even those nova attacks at one trick ponies. One strike, and you're done and if your oponants makes the save, you've wasted your chance.
It gets even worse for Spellcasters when you eventually get barbarians with +3 greatswords, or rogues with sneak attack and +3 poison or magical daggers, and things ike that.
So in short, I am somewhat sad that there is no way at all to get around the weave and it's laws and allow spell casters to weild the kind of power that it feels like they should, considering they are masters of magic.
I am an online author and sci-fi lover who plays table too roleplaying games in his free time. See all my character concepts at: Character Bios – Jays Blog (jaytelford.me)
Game balance issues. I'm not always a fan of them myself, but it seems that having everybody feel like they can contribute meaningfully to one of the "three pillars" is important to keeping as many players satisfied as possible. Happier players means more game sales, etc.
Social, If this is in response to percieved weakness in wizards and sorcerers, dont worry they arent weak they just cant throw spells like candy on a halloween night. Each cast must be weighed and measured on its effect. As Song said a lot of it is trying to make the classes more closely tied to a level output.
Sorcerers macguffin is sorcery points - they can make an already amazing spell a battle ender if your choices and timing is correct.
Wizards macguffin is they have rituals which are support based, the largest potential of spells known to prep from and at the last few levels two spells they can cast like cantrips
So if you cant resist casting a spell every round you will be out of spells in 1 or 2 encounters unless your spell ended it in one cast. This is what cantrips are there for, filling up the rounds with average damage attacks in line with a set level that is below a cookie cutter weapon damage dealer. Clever play is generally rewarded regardless of class, and when you start getting devious with an arsenal of spells at your disposal then what cant you do?
I feel the need to add that support role casting is much less likely in 5th. Most support spells require concentration and that prevents you helping two people. It reinforces that if you have armoured / armed an ally with magic your very likely to be falling back on cantrips whilst they do their thing.
Try playing a Cleric of any domain. 😉
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I love playing magic users and I love to be a DM for games, where a lot of the players at the table are bringing magic users.
In general, I just love magic.
Whenever I play a magic user though, it seems that I am playing a balancing act. Do I use one of my spell slots, knowing that the barbarian is going next and might deal enough damage to kill the enemy, or do I try to do something else instead.
Invariably I always end up using my cantrips, because I don't want to waste my spell slots. Using cantrips like Acid Splash to do 1 to 4d6; or Ray of Frost, to deal 1 to 4d8 damage.
Or I act as the bait, to lure the enemy into an ambush, where my parties melee attackers can do their thing, while I run away, so that I don't get hit and risk loosing the few Hit Points that I have, and dying.
Because I usually have high scores in one of the social stats, I tend to be really good at behind the scenes stuff. If my party needs to investigate some person or some place, where there won't be combat, I do that. Or if they need to get information out of somebody, I do that, or need to lie to somebody, I'd do that.
Or I perform other utility tasks like shopping, maintaining the base, hideout or whatever.
I feel really constrained. I don't want to be a burden to my party and have to have them start healing me all the time because my HP is so low, and I don't want to waste what few good spells I have, because what if my party gets attached by a roving band of war orcs, before I have managed to recover my spell slots and they really need me to cast my offensive spells, or to use my spells to keep them healed or get them away from harm.
I am not the only one who feels this way either. I have had players that I have been DMing for, ask me if they can have more long or short rests than the the book technically advises, or the module calls for, because they feel like they are not able to play their magic users to their full potential.
They have these really powerful masters or magic that they feel should be able to do so much more than they actually are.
I am an online author and sci-fi lover who plays table too roleplaying games in his free time. See all my character concepts at: Character Bios – Jays Blog (jaytelford.me)
I agree there is a large tonal shift in the role of the wizard (and sorcerer). The spells used to be big risk, big reward, but now seem big risk mediocre reward.
The melee classes have been changed so that they can decide to use their limited abilities after they see if they hit or crit. Casters can't - they use the ability and then see if it works. They seem to have been left behind in the tonal change of 5e. Having said that they are definitely more balanced and survivable at low levels. I liked the "advanced skill level" required to keep a wizard alive in previous editions however - leading to a powerful payoff at higher levels (if you could get there).
In regards to your main question however, I would look at creating rituals. Most of the spells that are official are written as battle spells - quick cast effects in the heat of battle. Given time and resources however maybe they can put together a custom ritual to do what they need to do. I would certainly be behind this as a DM. Eg Glass castle fortress of solitude style. No problem. 50k or 100k gold in reagents (maybe a quest to find some of the rare ones, or farm it out to an adventuring party), a year (or whatever the create artifact rules say in time) and it is done. Can add in extra casters for more money but reduced time.
Creates something special, but not unbalanced IMO. I would allow pocket dimensions and the like as well. Imagination is the limit, but there will be an in game cost.
It sounds like this is a different issue than having access to higher level magic... Having higher tiers will still limit the number of times you can use them, and you'll still find yourself holding on to them wondering if it's the right time to use it - and when you do, and the Barbarian could have finished the enemy next turn, it'll still feel bad. It's the Elixir effect. :p
I'm not sure access to higher tiers will solve the issue, if you feel it's a big enough issue to homebrew solutions to it, you may want to look at other approaches to the issue.
Has anybody here tried a homebrew to permit 2 ongoing concentration spells at the same time, as long as they are on different targets?
Does this actually make spellcasters overpowered or just increase their risk-reward calculations?
I made a homebrew sorcerer subclass that could concentrate on 2 spells at level 18. I was assured by many comments that 2 concentration spells is overpowered, but I haven't been given any significant examples (best was Wall of stone and cloudkill)
I was thinking of permitting a feat that lets 2 concentration spells up at the same time, but one of them can only have one target, that target being the caster or an ally. That would prevent the Stinking Cloud+Wall of Water kinds of combos unless the players work together.