I know reading the entirety of these threads is tiring, but I do say that. That's not surprise though, that's just sneaking up on them; they won't have the Surprise condition for the first round of combat, but the player(s) that beat their Passive Perception will, indeed, still be hidden from them.
So, if I understand your view correctly, as long as they are aware of a threat they cannot be surprised.
Even though it's done on a per creature basis, say the enemy misses 4/5 passive Perception checks, he is not surprised by any of the opponents?
I know reading the entirety of these threads is tiring, but I do say that. That's not surprise though, that's just sneaking up on them; they won't have the Surprise condition for the first round of combat, but the player(s) that beat their Passive Perception will, indeed, still be hidden from them.
I think I was still typing my post when you stated that, but yes that is correct.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I know reading the entirety of these threads is tiring, but I do say that. That's not surprise though, that's just sneaking up on them; they won't have the Surprise condition for the first round of combat, but the player(s) that beat their Passive Perception will, indeed, still be hidden from them.
So, if I understand your view correctly, as long as they are aware of a threat they cannot be surprised.
Even though it's done on a per creature basis, say the enemy misses 4/5 passive Perception checks, he is not surprised by any of the opponents?
Correct. Surprised isn't really even an actual condition. A creature that successfully notices any of the ambushing creatures is not "surprised" during the 1st round of combat, but any creatures it did not personally notice are hidden from it.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I know reading the entirety of these threads is tiring, but I do say that. That's not surprise though, that's just sneaking up on them; they won't have the Surprise condition for the first round of combat, but the player(s) that beat their Passive Perception will, indeed, still be hidden from them.
So, if I understand your view correctly, as long as they are aware of a threat they cannot be surprised.
Even though it's done on a per creature basis, say the enemy misses 4/5 passive Perception checks, he is not surprised by any of the opponents?
Correct. Surprised isn't really even an actual condition. A creature that successfully notices any of the ambushing creatures is not "surprised" during the 1st round of combat, but any creatures it did not personally notice are hidden from it.
Well that really makes the Assassinate ability lackluster.
I have to hope that the entire party is able to sneak up on the entire group of enemies we're approaching and I have to roll higher than my intended target.
The chances of both of those things occurring are pretty small, it's better to just go into combat under Stealth and get the advantage from that. Every other Rogue archetype can do the same thing and has abilities that will work without such stringent clauses.
Eh, Assassin can still be quite powerful if used right. Very easy to surprise a creature with a ranged attack, particularly if your Assassin has longbow proficiency (elf weapons or through feat/multiclass)
Or you can go ahead of the party. This is easy for a rogue as they can move faster by default with their bonus action dash/hide, and the party can probably catch up by the first actual round of combat. An assassin surprising a group of enemies wouldn't leave the rest of his party - who's a ways behind him - surprised; they could catch up during the "surprise round" while the assassin does his stabbing.
Granted, if you fail your stealth check, you're gonna be in trouble lol. But again, bonus disengage/dash/hide goes a long way.
In my opinion, rogues should always be at least 30 feet ahead of the rest of the party.
Edit addition: Everything about surprise makes me wish they had implement rules, or at least guidelines, for more complex stealth. Things like how far sound travels/how far things can hear. Really just up to the DM, but as a DM I really like stealth and wish there were more built in options for it.
I know reading the entirety of these threads is tiring, but I do say that. That's not surprise though, that's just sneaking up on them; they won't have the Surprise condition for the first round of combat, but the player(s) that beat their Passive Perception will, indeed, still be hidden from them.
So, if I understand your view correctly, as long as they are aware of a threat they cannot be surprised.
Even though it's done on a per creature basis, say the enemy misses 4/5 passive Perception checks, he is not surprised by any of the opponents?
Correct. Surprised isn't really even an actual condition. A creature that successfully notices any of the ambushing creatures is not "surprised" during the 1st round of combat, but any creatures it did not personally notice are hidden from it.
Well that really makes the Assassinate ability lackluster.
I have to hope that the entire party is able to sneak up on the entire group of enemies we're approaching and I have to roll higher than my intended target.
The chances of both of those things occurring are pretty small, it's better to just go into combat under Stealth and get the advantage from that. Every other Rogue archetype can do the same thing and has abilities that will work without such stringent clauses.
Correct, the Assassinate ability is rather lackluster in most circumstances. As Jay mentioned, there are plenty of ways to maximize your opportunities, but it has always been an issue with the subclass design (prestige class in previous editions).
My best advice has always been: "If you want to play an assassin, don't be an Assassin."
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Visibility, in a situation that benefits the Assassin, can be assumed to reach 60 feet. Darkvision, on average, is 60 ft.
So the Assassin would need to be beyond that range to ensure that the party couldn't be seen, 30 ft just isn't enough. At 61 ft the Assassin is guaranteed to spend 1 entire round without any backup. The party can't help him until they enter combat, If they enter combat at the same time as the Assassin they could ruin the Assassinate attempt.
Otherwise the only way an Assassin is able to use the ability, with any regularity, is to use ranged weapons. Assuming the party is 30 ft behind the Assassin, the Assassin is using a Longbow, and the Assassin attacks from beyond Darkvision range, the party would be 91 feet away, giving the enemy advanced notice of an oncoming attack.
So, yea...an Assassin Rogue really does have a poor setup, and strategically doesn't make sense.
It makes more strategic sense in 2-3 person parties that all have stealth as their intended play style... which is pretty niche outside of 1-shots.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Visibility, in a situation that benefits the Assassin, can be assumed to reach 60 feet. Darkvision, on average, is 60 ft.
So the Assassin would need to be beyond that range to ensure that the party couldn't be seen, 30 ft just isn't enough. At 61 ft the Assassin is guaranteed to spend 1 entire round without any backup. The party can't help him until they enter combat, If they enter combat at the same time as the Assassin they could ruin the Assassinate attempt.
Otherwise the only way an Assassin is able to use the ability, with any regularity, is to use ranged weapons. Assuming the party is 30 ft behind the Assassin, the Assassin is using a Longbow, and the Assassin attacks from beyond Darkvision range, the party would be 91 feet away, giving the enemy advanced notice of an oncoming attack.
So, yea...an Assassin Rogue really does have a poor setup, and strategically doesn't make sense.
Well, that depends on the situation, and unless creatures have blindsight or tremorsense they don't see everything all around them constantly. If you're moving through a dungeon, city streets, a forest, etc. there's plenty of opportunity to get a little closer than 60 feet without being spotted or requiring active Stealth checks for the whole party, if they're moving along silently (possibly half speed.)
Assassins can enter rooms or move down alleyways or whatever without the rest of the party, and as I mentioned the party can catch up during the "surprise round" even if they need to dash to move 60 feet. There's no reason they would be Surprised during it, as they're already moving to catch up to the Rogue and know what his intent is, it's not like they would just stop for 6 seconds. They won't get to attack during the surprise round, but they can be there in time for the actual initiative order to begin and the Assassin can have done a tonne of damage to an enemy in that time.
I am just trying to question the common concept that "DM has total control over surprise."
There is a clearly stated mechanic. There are also pretty clear mechanics for breaking contact. If I ambush and get surprise, and then accomplish the "sneak in" objective to end the encounter on the other side of the enemy, I think RAW I can attempt to surprise again by jumping them from the other direction.
Yes, make my stealth check at disadvantage or give the enemy active search with advantage, but the opportunity is still there.
If I am running max dex with expertise on stealth, fair odds. Wisdom is not a buff monster ability like Con or Str.
But it is largely up to the DM, as there aren't a lot of specific rules.
RAW what you suggest wouldn't work. You could break contact and circle back to attack from stealth again, but unless you've waited at least a short rests worth of time then the enemy is going to be on guard (if they haven't just left entirely or something; again, this isn't a video game, enemies don't just reset to a default in DnD) and Surprise requires them to be totally unaware of any threat. You can certainly sneak up again and attack from stealth to get advantage/sneak attack, but they're expecting an attack now and won't be surprised by it.
It's already been confirmed that the only checks necessary are Stealth vs passive Perception and whether the targets are unaware of any threat. As long as those two conditions are met then you can achieve Surprise.
I have found no reference that you must break combat for any amount of time before you can attempt Surprise again. By that, it is entirely possible for the party to declare combat, decide to remain hidden and not reveal themselves, and then try again once combat has ended. It would be entirely up to the DM to decide how long combat lasts even if they don't reveal themselves, how far they have to retreat before combat ends, and how long they have to wait before engaging again.
It can be argued that the "Ending a Chase" section in the DMG (page 253) gives a definition that can be used in this situation. The only requisite is that the quarry, the group trying to get away, beats the pursuer's passive Perception vs Stealth. Even in this situation there is no time frame given, only a contested check.
No where in the combat or chase section does it detail that creatures remain "aware of a threat" for any amount of time. So it is, by RAW, entirely possible to declare combat immediately after combat ends and Surprise would be reassessed.
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You are correct this isn't a video game, however if we're quoting RAW and running all of the previous Surprise information as stringently as that, then this must be taken into account as well.
I agree with most of that, but surprise to me indicates that they are completely unaware that they are being attacked, and not at all prepared for it. Weapons aren't drawn, guard isn't up, not actively searching for or even trying to be aware of threats. If you sneak up and surprise someone once, they're not going to be surprised by you sneaking up on them again right away even if you manage the "sneaking up" part.
It would certainly depend on the situation, but in most that I can think of, if you attack someone and slip away they're going to be pretty high strung for a while after that. They'll likely keep their weapons out, keep on guard, constantly scanning around and perhaps setting up traps and whatnot. You can sneak up and attack them again, certainly, but would they really be unable to act for 6 seconds once you do? I don't think so; they're raring to go.
Now, if they think they made you run away with your tail between your legs and feel confident that you're not going to return, then sure you could probably surprise them again. Thus, in my opinion, it is all very situational and anything that is situational in 5e is up to the DM's discretion.
I am just trying to question the common concept that "DM has total control over surprise."
There is a clearly stated mechanic. There are also pretty clear mechanics for breaking contact. If I ambush and get surprise, and then accomplish the "sneak in" objective to end the encounter on the other side of the enemy, I think RAW I can attempt to surprise again by jumping them from the other direction.
Yes, make my stealth check at disadvantage or give the enemy active search with advantage, but the opportunity is still there.
If I am running max dex with expertise on stealth, fair odds. Wisdom is not a buff monster ability like Con or Str.
Sooo... aside from the whole "they are on alert now, so they cannot be surprised again" argument (which is factually true), how are you rationalizing this sequence of events?
If you've ambushed someone guarding an area you are trying to infiltrate, and they are still conscious when you try to end the encounter, you've failed to "sneak in". They know you're there, and they can alert everyone else.
If all you're doing is trying to hide before attacking the same target again, then you aren't ending the encounter either. All you're doing is taking the Hide action in order to attack again with advantage next round.
You can't surprise someone again without a plausible in-game reason for that person/group to no longer be on alert, and that has to include a significant amount of time to have passed.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I agree with most of that, but surprise to me indicates that they are completely unaware that they are being attacked, and not at all prepared for it. Weapons aren't drawn, guard isn't up, not actively searching for or even trying to be aware of threats. If you sneak up and surprise someone once, they're not going to be surprised by you sneaking up on them again right away even if you manage the "sneaking up" part.
It would certainly depend on the situation, but in most that I can think of, if you attack someone and slip away they're going to be pretty high strung for a while after that. They'll likely keep their weapons out, keep on guard, constantly scanning around and perhaps setting up traps and whatnot. You can sneak up and attack them again, certainly, but would they really be unable to act for 6 seconds once you do? I don't think so; they're raring to go.
Now, if they think they made you run away with your tail between your legs and feel confident that you're not going to return, then sure you could probably surprise them again. Thus, in my opinion, it is all very situational and anything that is situational in 5e is up to the DM's discretion.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree completely, I would narrate it the exact same way.
The thing I want to point out though is, with the Surprise conversation, there was an adherence to what the RAW indicated vs what the DM would say/narrate. You are, in this situation, using your narrative to overrule what RAW indicates.
When it comes down to it though, the RAW, the Narrative, and the Home brew, the entirety of the game is up to DM discretion. Serf2Sovereign, you've gotten quite the thread out of your question, a lot of back and forth, and some differing perspective. It's up to you, your players, and your DM, to decide how you want to make this work and what feels right for your games.
I really wish there were some more concrete rules for not only surprise, but Stealth and Hiding in general. I get that 5e is all about being basic and flexible, but sometimes too much of that is just even more confusing.
I really wish there were some more concrete rules for not only surprise, but Stealth and Hiding in general. I get that 5e is all about being basic and flexible, but sometimes too much of that is just even more confusing.
Agreed. There is a lot of ambiguity in areas that really need at least basic examples.
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So, if I understand your view correctly, as long as they are aware of a threat they cannot be surprised.
Even though it's done on a per creature basis, say the enemy misses 4/5 passive Perception checks, he is not surprised by any of the opponents?
I think I was still typing my post when you stated that, but yes that is correct.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Correct. Surprised isn't really even an actual condition. A creature that successfully notices any of the ambushing creatures is not "surprised" during the 1st round of combat, but any creatures it did not personally notice are hidden from it.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well that really makes the Assassinate ability lackluster.
I have to hope that the entire party is able to sneak up on the entire group of enemies we're approaching and I have to roll higher than my intended target.
The chances of both of those things occurring are pretty small, it's better to just go into combat under Stealth and get the advantage from that. Every other Rogue archetype can do the same thing and has abilities that will work without such stringent clauses.
Eh, Assassin can still be quite powerful if used right. Very easy to surprise a creature with a ranged attack, particularly if your Assassin has longbow proficiency (elf weapons or through feat/multiclass)
Or you can go ahead of the party. This is easy for a rogue as they can move faster by default with their bonus action dash/hide, and the party can probably catch up by the first actual round of combat. An assassin surprising a group of enemies wouldn't leave the rest of his party - who's a ways behind him - surprised; they could catch up during the "surprise round" while the assassin does his stabbing.
Granted, if you fail your stealth check, you're gonna be in trouble lol. But again, bonus disengage/dash/hide goes a long way.
In my opinion, rogues should always be at least 30 feet ahead of the rest of the party.
Edit addition: Everything about surprise makes me wish they had implement rules, or at least guidelines, for more complex stealth. Things like how far sound travels/how far things can hear. Really just up to the DM, but as a DM I really like stealth and wish there were more built in options for it.
Correct, the Assassinate ability is rather lackluster in most circumstances. As Jay mentioned, there are plenty of ways to maximize your opportunities, but it has always been an issue with the subclass design (prestige class in previous editions).
My best advice has always been: "If you want to play an assassin, don't be an Assassin."
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Visibility, in a situation that benefits the Assassin, can be assumed to reach 60 feet. Darkvision, on average, is 60 ft.
So the Assassin would need to be beyond that range to ensure that the party couldn't be seen, 30 ft just isn't enough. At 61 ft the Assassin is guaranteed to spend 1 entire round without any backup. The party can't help him until they enter combat, If they enter combat at the same time as the Assassin they could ruin the Assassinate attempt.
Otherwise the only way an Assassin is able to use the ability, with any regularity, is to use ranged weapons. Assuming the party is 30 ft behind the Assassin, the Assassin is using a Longbow, and the Assassin attacks from beyond Darkvision range, the party would be 91 feet away, giving the enemy advanced notice of an oncoming attack.
So, yea...an Assassin Rogue really does have a poor setup, and strategically doesn't make sense.
It makes more strategic sense in 2-3 person parties that all have stealth as their intended play style... which is pretty niche outside of 1-shots.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, that depends on the situation, and unless creatures have blindsight or tremorsense they don't see everything all around them constantly. If you're moving through a dungeon, city streets, a forest, etc. there's plenty of opportunity to get a little closer than 60 feet without being spotted or requiring active Stealth checks for the whole party, if they're moving along silently (possibly half speed.)
Assassins can enter rooms or move down alleyways or whatever without the rest of the party, and as I mentioned the party can catch up during the "surprise round" even if they need to dash to move 60 feet. There's no reason they would be Surprised during it, as they're already moving to catch up to the Rogue and know what his intent is, it's not like they would just stop for 6 seconds. They won't get to attack during the surprise round, but they can be there in time for the actual initiative order to begin and the Assassin can have done a tonne of damage to an enemy in that time.
I am just trying to question the common concept that "DM has total control over surprise."
There is a clearly stated mechanic. There are also pretty clear mechanics for breaking contact. If I ambush and get surprise, and then accomplish the "sneak in" objective to end the encounter on the other side of the enemy, I think RAW I can attempt to surprise again by jumping them from the other direction.
Yes, make my stealth check at disadvantage or give the enemy active search with advantage, but the opportunity is still there.
If I am running max dex with expertise on stealth, fair odds. Wisdom is not a buff monster ability like Con or Str.
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But it is largely up to the DM, as there aren't a lot of specific rules.
RAW what you suggest wouldn't work. You could break contact and circle back to attack from stealth again, but unless you've waited at least a short rests worth of time then the enemy is going to be on guard (if they haven't just left entirely or something; again, this isn't a video game, enemies don't just reset to a default in DnD) and Surprise requires them to be totally unaware of any threat. You can certainly sneak up again and attack from stealth to get advantage/sneak attack, but they're expecting an attack now and won't be surprised by it.
RAW doesn't give that kind of limitation though.
It's already been confirmed that the only checks necessary are Stealth vs passive Perception and whether the targets are unaware of any threat. As long as those two conditions are met then you can achieve Surprise.
I have found no reference that you must break combat for any amount of time before you can attempt Surprise again. By that, it is entirely possible for the party to declare combat, decide to remain hidden and not reveal themselves, and then try again once combat has ended. It would be entirely up to the DM to decide how long combat lasts even if they don't reveal themselves, how far they have to retreat before combat ends, and how long they have to wait before engaging again.
It can be argued that the "Ending a Chase" section in the DMG (page 253) gives a definition that can be used in this situation. The only requisite is that the quarry, the group trying to get away, beats the pursuer's passive Perception vs Stealth. Even in this situation there is no time frame given, only a contested check.
No where in the combat or chase section does it detail that creatures remain "aware of a threat" for any amount of time. So it is, by RAW, entirely possible to declare combat immediately after combat ends and Surprise would be reassessed.
---
You are correct this isn't a video game, however if we're quoting RAW and running all of the previous Surprise information as stringently as that, then this must be taken into account as well.
I agree with most of that, but surprise to me indicates that they are completely unaware that they are being attacked, and not at all prepared for it. Weapons aren't drawn, guard isn't up, not actively searching for or even trying to be aware of threats. If you sneak up and surprise someone once, they're not going to be surprised by you sneaking up on them again right away even if you manage the "sneaking up" part.
It would certainly depend on the situation, but in most that I can think of, if you attack someone and slip away they're going to be pretty high strung for a while after that. They'll likely keep their weapons out, keep on guard, constantly scanning around and perhaps setting up traps and whatnot. You can sneak up and attack them again, certainly, but would they really be unable to act for 6 seconds once you do? I don't think so; they're raring to go.
Now, if they think they made you run away with your tail between your legs and feel confident that you're not going to return, then sure you could probably surprise them again. Thus, in my opinion, it is all very situational and anything that is situational in 5e is up to the DM's discretion.
Sooo... aside from the whole "they are on alert now, so they cannot be surprised again" argument (which is factually true), how are you rationalizing this sequence of events?
If you've ambushed someone guarding an area you are trying to infiltrate, and they are still conscious when you try to end the encounter, you've failed to "sneak in". They know you're there, and they can alert everyone else.
If all you're doing is trying to hide before attacking the same target again, then you aren't ending the encounter either. All you're doing is taking the Hide action in order to attack again with advantage next round.
You can't surprise someone again without a plausible in-game reason for that person/group to no longer be on alert, and that has to include a significant amount of time to have passed.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree completely, I would narrate it the exact same way.
The thing I want to point out though is, with the Surprise conversation, there was an adherence to what the RAW indicated vs what the DM would say/narrate. You are, in this situation, using your narrative to overrule what RAW indicates.
When it comes down to it though, the RAW, the Narrative, and the Home brew, the entirety of the game is up to DM discretion. Serf2Sovereign, you've gotten quite the thread out of your question, a lot of back and forth, and some differing perspective. It's up to you, your players, and your DM, to decide how you want to make this work and what feels right for your games.
I really wish there were some more concrete rules for not only surprise, but Stealth and Hiding in general. I get that 5e is all about being basic and flexible, but sometimes too much of that is just even more confusing.
Agreed. There is a lot of ambiguity in areas that really need at least basic examples.