My players asked me if by true polymorphing a party member into something else, waiting until it was permanent, then true polymorphing back into the character that they could eliminate their diseases and curses. Since the new form was not afflicted by a curse or disease, it would go away and transfer back over to their character when they switch back (according to them). I this would get rid of the need for spells such as the restoration spells, hero's feast, etc and there would be no point in getting them. Should I allow this since it is such a high level spell or would the disease/curse carry over when they polymorph and back when they polymorph to their original selves?
Part of me is pretty sure that's inaccurate, but I figure it's a 9th level spell that they'll need to cast twice to get the effect they're looking for, so you might as well let them have it. The way I see it they're not so much returning them to their original form as they are creating a new form that's identical to their original. So I'd say maybe make the caster roll an Intelligence check or something to see how accurately they can recreate the target's original body, that way if they screw up you can give some kind of silly detail to make things a little more interesting.
I don't understand why they are saying it replaces all restorative spells. As @TransmorpherDDS stated, True Polymorph is a 9th level spell, if they want to waste two 9th level spells to cure a disease them let them have at it. But personally I wouldn't allow any polymorh spell to remove a disease, unless they shape into a creature that is immune to that disease. Otherwise the new creature is now also affected by the disease in the same way the original character was. They didn't escape the disease, they simply have a new form.
Yeah, now that I"m looking at the spell properly, nothing about it says that it cures diseases or curses. I think Xaipher has a point, though... if they're first polymorphed into a form that's 100% immune to whatever condition that's trying to be healed, then that should probably take care of it.
Yeah, now that I"m looking at the spell properly, nothing about it says that it cures diseases or curses. I think Xaipher has a point, though... if they're first polymorphed into a form that's 100% immune to whatever condition that's trying to be healed, then that should probably take care of it.
I would argue that only surpresses the disease or curse, much like being petrified. That is more open to interpretation and DM ruling though.
As a DM, I'd probably make a snap judgement whether allowing this would make the game more fun or not.
RAW, I'm pretty sure True Polymorph does not do that. But I generally want to reward my players for clever solutions, so if someone came up with this as a one-off solution to a problem I'd probably allow it. But if they're metagaming spell selection (e.g. "I have True Polymorph, and that's basically equivalent to all restorative spells so the cleric doesn't need to get them") then I'd think that's lame and stick with RAW.
Yeah, now that I"m looking at the spell properly, nothing about it says that it cures diseases or curses. I think Xaipher has a point, though... if they're first polymorphed into a form that's 100% immune to whatever condition that's trying to be healed, then that should probably take care of it.
I would argue that only surpresses the disease or curse, much like being petrified. That is more open to interpretation and DM ruling though.
I'd say that could probably cure a disease, but I wouldn't let it dispel a curse. Of course, that's also sticking with the caveat I mentioned before where the player isn't actually restored to their original form, but rather they're transformed into a new form that's identical to their original.
Rules do what they say they do and nothing more. "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality." so the curse/disease definitely does not transfer to the new form unless the statistics of the new form include the curse/disease. As for whether the curse/disease comes back after... "when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed." There is no guidance at all on that so the DM has to make a call. I have not researched this issue further, so if there is a Sage Advice of errata on the subject, then I stand corrected.
Rules do what they say they do and nothing more. "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality." so the curse/disease definitely does not transfer to the new form unless the statistics of the new form include the curse/disease. As for whether the curse/disease comes back after... "when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed." There is no guidance at all on that so the DM has to make a call. I have not researched this issue further, so if there is a Sage Advice of errata on the subject, then I stand corrected.
I'd say that could probably cure a disease, but I wouldn't let it dispel a curse. Of course, that's also sticking with the caveat I mentioned before where the player isn't actually restored to their original form, but rather they're transformed into a new form that's identical to their original.
I think this is the best answer. I would even allow one casting true polymorph to change a character into their own body, but without the disease. Remember that true polymorph, even though it's "permanent", can still be dispelled. This would bring the disease right back, possibly even worse.
They could omit the dispel (which would need to be cast at ninth level or rolled) by turning the diseased/cursed PC into a low HP creature and punching/hitting it until it drops to 0hp and reverts as normal.
Rules do what they say they do and nothing more. "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality." so the curse/disease definitely does not transfer to the new form unless the statistics of the new form include the curse/disease. As for whether the curse/disease comes back after... "when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed." There is no guidance at all on that so the DM has to make a call. I have not researched this issue further, so if there is a Sage Advice of errata on the subject, then I stand corrected.
I would argue conditions are not statistics.
Conditions ARE NOT statistics.
Rules do what they say and nothing more. Your statistic and HP, etc change but your conditions, diseases, curses, attunements, and magic effects are not changed, so you still have them.
Rules do what they say and nothing more. Your statistic and HP, etc change but your conditions, diseases, curses, attunements, and magic effects are not changed, so you still have them.
I'm trying to understand your position better. How do you define statistics?
Rules do what they say and nothing more. Your statistic and HP, etc change but your conditions, diseases, curses, attunements, and magic effects are not changed, so you still have them.
I'm trying to understand your position better. How do you define statistics?
Just want you all to realize, D&D rules are entirely suggestive and ultimately the DM has final word on how things work in their own game. Both methods are correct, IF you're the DM.
And I agree with you that it's up to the DM to make the decision on how to play it. I have said since my first reply that RAW is ambiguous on the matter. DxJxC presents a great argument for keeping the curse/disease through the change. If someone at my table wanted to use two castings of True Polymorph to remove a disease or a curse, I would say, "How about you just use the (much lower level) spell that was made for that specific purpose?"
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My players asked me if by true polymorphing a party member into something else, waiting until it was permanent, then true polymorphing back into the character that they could eliminate their diseases and curses. Since the new form was not afflicted by a curse or disease, it would go away and transfer back over to their character when they switch back (according to them). I this would get rid of the need for spells such as the restoration spells, hero's feast, etc and there would be no point in getting them. Should I allow this since it is such a high level spell or would the disease/curse carry over when they polymorph and back when they polymorph to their original selves?
Part of me is pretty sure that's inaccurate, but I figure it's a 9th level spell that they'll need to cast twice to get the effect they're looking for, so you might as well let them have it. The way I see it they're not so much returning them to their original form as they are creating a new form that's identical to their original. So I'd say maybe make the caster roll an Intelligence check or something to see how accurately they can recreate the target's original body, that way if they screw up you can give some kind of silly detail to make things a little more interesting.
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I don't understand why they are saying it replaces all restorative spells. As @TransmorpherDDS stated, True Polymorph is a 9th level spell, if they want to waste two 9th level spells to cure a disease them let them have at it. But personally I wouldn't allow any polymorh spell to remove a disease, unless they shape into a creature that is immune to that disease. Otherwise the new creature is now also affected by the disease in the same way the original character was. They didn't escape the disease, they simply have a new form.
Ultimately it's up to you, the DM.
Where does true polymorph say that diseases and curses dont transfer to the new form?
Yeah, now that I"m looking at the spell properly, nothing about it says that it cures diseases or curses. I think Xaipher has a point, though... if they're first polymorphed into a form that's 100% immune to whatever condition that's trying to be healed, then that should probably take care of it.
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I would argue that only surpresses the disease or curse, much like being petrified. That is more open to interpretation and DM ruling though.
As a DM, I'd probably make a snap judgement whether allowing this would make the game more fun or not.
RAW, I'm pretty sure True Polymorph does not do that. But I generally want to reward my players for clever solutions, so if someone came up with this as a one-off solution to a problem I'd probably allow it. But if they're metagaming spell selection (e.g. "I have True Polymorph, and that's basically equivalent to all restorative spells so the cleric doesn't need to get them") then I'd think that's lame and stick with RAW.
I'd say that could probably cure a disease, but I wouldn't let it dispel a curse. Of course, that's also sticking with the caveat I mentioned before where the player isn't actually restored to their original form, but rather they're transformed into a new form that's identical to their original.
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Where does it say that they do? :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You know that isn't how game rules work right?
Rules do what they say they do and nothing more. "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality." so the curse/disease definitely does not transfer to the new form unless the statistics of the new form include the curse/disease. As for whether the curse/disease comes back after... "when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed." There is no guidance at all on that so the DM has to make a call. I have not researched this issue further, so if there is a Sage Advice of errata on the subject, then I stand corrected.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I would argue conditions are not statistics.
I think this is the best answer. I would even allow one casting true polymorph to change a character into their own body, but without the disease. Remember that true polymorph, even though it's "permanent", can still be dispelled. This would bring the disease right back, possibly even worse.
They could omit the dispel (which would need to be cast at ninth level or rolled) by turning the diseased/cursed PC into a low HP creature and punching/hitting it until it drops to 0hp and reverts as normal.
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Conditions ARE NOT statistics.
Rules do what they say and nothing more. Your statistic and HP, etc change but your conditions, diseases, curses, attunements, and magic effects are not changed, so you still have them.
I'm trying to understand your position better. How do you define statistics?
According to the rules, how else?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/monsters#MonsterStatistics
Fortunately, the spell text tells us explicitly what is retained when a creature undergoes true polymorph: Its personality and its alignment.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Wow, this really went off the rails.
Just want you all to realize, D&D rules are entirely suggestive and ultimately the DM has final word on how things work in their own game. Both methods are correct, IF you're the DM.
This is the rules forum. It's what we do here :)
And I agree with you that it's up to the DM to make the decision on how to play it. I have said since my first reply that RAW is ambiguous on the matter. DxJxC presents a great argument for keeping the curse/disease through the change. If someone at my table wanted to use two castings of True Polymorph to remove a disease or a curse, I would say, "How about you just use the (much lower level) spell that was made for that specific purpose?"
"Not all those who wander are lost"