Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A SINGLE CLASS sorcerer does NOT have MULTICLASS spell slots.
This is isn't difficult. One is not multiple.
I don't know how the rules could be more clear without being redundant. They even gave an example.
A multiclass character does NOT have single class character spells slots.
This is isn't difficult. I don't know how the rules could be more clear without being redundant.
What you are doing is not clever.
In general you are right. A multiclassed spellcaster ignores their individual class spell slots.
But you are specifically told to only use your single class chart when determining what spells you can learn and prepare. And specific trumps general.
Did I mention that there was even an example that shows this? You are alone arguing against the rules and 4 other people. If you didnt want to be wrong why did you even start this thread?
A multiclass character does NOT have single class character spells slots.
Except for when determining what spells are known or can be prepared. That's the entire crux of this issue.
Regarding hostility, I apologise if I've come across as such. I completely see how you are reading and understanding the rules - but you are missing a key ruling each time you parse this down.
The bit yall keep saying that has no text support is that you use only your sorcerer level to determine spell slots. I'm not sure where you are getting that from but nothing says to do that. Anywhere. At all. That is an invention, whole cloth.
That's not what is being said. But rather the spells you can cast or can be prepare must be determined as though you were a single member of a class. Let's parse this down:
I am determining the spells I am able to cast
Reading the Sorcerer rules, I can cast spells of any level I have slots for
I refer to the multiclass table to see which spell slots I have
As a 2Sorc/3Cleric, I have access to level 3 spell slots - therefore can I cast level 3 Sorcerer Spells? Keep going.
The multiclass rules say when determining what spells I am able to cast or prepare, I must consider myself a single class
For determining Sorcerer spells, I must therefore consider myself a level 2 Sorcerer - not a 2Sorc/3Cleric
As I am now looking at single-class rulings, I refer to the Sorcerer table to see which spell slots I have - I appreciate this is the bit you get stuck on, because you still think you should be referring to the multiclass table
As a 2nd Level Sorcerer, I have access to level 1 spell slots, because I am now no longer factoring in the additional levels from my cleric levels, and therefore have no need to refer to the mutlciass table
That is the RAW ruling, which completely makes sense to me. I am not sure how to explain this in any other way, but I'm willing to help - I don't believe you're wilfully trying ignore the rules, something just isn't clicking. So let's keep plugging away at it, until it makes sense!
Okay but the spell level you can learn from sorcerer spells is NOT based on sorcerer level. It is based only and exclusively on something else. Again, repeat after me, sorcerer spells known is NOT based on sorcerer level. Not once. Not ever.
It is instead based exclusively on...
Spell Slots Available.
And the only spell slots you have are from the multiclass table.
Because the multiclass rules tell you that is how it works.
You don't have those spell slots available if you don't have those extra class levels though.
Let's say you're Sorcerer 5/ Bard 8, and gain a sorcerer level.
You follow the rules:
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
So you only can only learn new spells as if you were a 6th level sorcerer. You can't have a 5th level spell slot, since in that moment, you don't count as Sorcerer 6/Bard 8, but only as sorcerer 6. This is the only way this sentence makes sense.
Also, your argument about the specific wording of the sorcerer spell learning doesn't hold, because ranger is worded the same way:
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the ranger spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Ranger table shows when you learn more ranger spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
How do you make the example from the rulebook make sense then ? By your interpretation, the ranger should be able to know spells of higher-level.
But really, go to reddit, go to boards, you can even go to twitter ask Jeremy Crawford himself, I guarantee you, you will never find anyone agreeing with you.
You determine the spells you know/prepare for each class individually, pretending you have just that class. The slots you get from the multiclassing rules don't apply. You have 1 level in cleric? You prepare cleric spells as a 1st-level cleric.
But really, go to reddit, go to boards, you can even go to twitter ask Jeremy Crawford himself, I guarantee you, you will never find anyone agreeing with you.
You determine the spells you know/prepare for each class individually, pretending you have just that class. The slots you get from the multiclassing rules don't apply. You have 1 level in cleric? You prepare cleric spells as a 1st-level cleric.
And this ends it really, because I think at the end of the day, Ravnodaus feels we're making a 'leap of logic' or an assumption.
He said, ''You've made a leap in logic there. An assumption, if you will, is being made in your interpretation, an assumption that "as if you were a single-classed member of that class" is always the same thing as "you know the spells a sorcerer who didn't multiclass might know".
This has been clarified by the game's designer. So it is no longer an assumption. I'd take it up with the writers if you're not happy that the rules are clear enough in the PhB, but I think we're just about done here in terms of clarifying the RAW.
So I went and reread all the spellslinging classes Spellcasting sections to see which ones reference their class charts and limit spells know to that, and which classes only care that you have slots available instead.
Bard - Chart
Cleric - Slots
Druid - Slots
Sorcerer - Slots
Warlock - Chart
Wizard Free-Spells - Chart
Wizard Found-Spells - Slots
Why are these classes spellcasting sections worded in such a way as to be contingent on different requirements for which spells they can learn and prepare?
Compare Warlock vs Sorcerer wording...
The Spells Known column of the Warlock table shows when you learn more warlock spells of your choice of 1st level and higher. A spell you choose must be of a level no higher than what’s shown in the table’s Slot Level column for your level.
vs
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
This distinction in wording and listed requirements surely is intentional and has meaning right?
TLDR;
Some classes direct you to their class chart for which level your spells known are limited to and some classes do not.
I'm not sure if you have an older version of the PHB where you are seeing differences here or are just paying attention to different parts for each one but the only one of these that reads differently for me (outside of the wizard found spells, which I didn't look for) is warlock and that's because the warlock slots work differently than all of the others. All of a Warlock's slots are always the same level and they level up along with the warlock. That's the only one that I saw that specifically referenced looking back at the chart and the rest referred to the spell slots available.
That said, I'm not sure how you can read the example of a ranger 4/wizard 3 and not see that it applies to your theoretical multiclassed sorcerer. In fact, if you swap out wizard for sorcerer, you would still have a 5th level spellcaster. The spell selection available and number of spells known would probably change (too late to verify, but I'm pretty certain wizard has more spells known at each corresponding level than a sorcerer. Therefore, if a ranger 4/Wizard 3 would be a 5th level spellcaster and would have access to 4 first level slots, 3 second level slots, and 2 third level slots, but could only learn three 1st level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class and the wizard spells could only be, at best 2nd level spells because of the wizard level... DESPITE the character having access to 2 third level spell slots, it would stand to reason that a ranger 4/sorcerer 3 would work the same factoring in the difference in the number of spells known that a sorcerer would have versus a wizard.
Now, working on the assumption that the differences that you pointed out here did have an effect and weren't clarified via errata, then there would be an example of how that would work or a secondary paragraph explaining how the interaction would be different for that class and others (similar to the Pact Magic). Considering the lack of the secondary example explicitly for sorcerer and for an exclusive paragraph for sorcerer similar to Pact Magic (warlock magic), it again stands to reason that the example of the ranger 4/wizard 3 can be the same as the ranger 4/sorcerer 3. Thus if the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 can have access to 2 third level spell slots but still be capped at casting second level spells, then that would be how the ranger 4/sorcerer 3 would work as well. That is how we are coming to the determination of what the character would know.
A final point. If the spell selection options that you are suggesting are RAW were actually RAW, then there would have to be an explanation for how the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 became a Ranger 4/Wizard 3. If they took 3 levels of Wizard first, then the character would already be a 3rd level caster at 4th level and would be able to select 2nd level ranger spells (which was already explained as not a possibility). If the character started out as a Ranger 4 and then took the three levels of wizard spells, then they would be able to select third level spells once they hit 7th level and became a 5th level caster with access to third level spell slots, which the example clearly stated was not the case.
At any rate, the explanation has been stated quite clearly by the others (I had to change my reply once I read the other replies to not be completely redundant). It appears from your comments that you at least play according to the rules. I won't fault you for sticking to your guns on this issue as I've done so as well on points (some of which I'm still not sure are not RAW by my reading, but hey the DM is the final say on how the rules work at your table. If your reading is more conservative than the RAW, you play it your way. If your reading is more liberal than the RAW, as in the case of being able to select 3rd level spells as a 3rd level sorcerer (or getting access to the always prepared spells that classes like cleric have based off character level rather than cleric level, one of my mistakes that I've come around on); then you'll want to get the approval of the DM before playing it that way.
Since the rules question is either clear, or will be impossible to clear, I will add that there are balance and "lore" reasons as to why this works this way.
If we had a Wizard 16, who suddenly discovered the godly life, and decided to become a Wizard 16/Cleric 1, it would mean that not only would they be instantly able to access the entire spell list of the cleric, but stopping their wizardly studies and becoming a cleric would actually make them more powerful as wizards as well, since they would now be able to cast Wish (they would, however, need to find a way to add it to their spellbook). Being a good wizard shouldn't mean that dabbbling in cleric instantly makes you the strongest cleric spellcaster there is.
Also, 5e tried to streamline a lot of things, and it's clearly not in its DNA to require you to remember the order you gained levels in, as you pointed out. It might be less important for Wizards, or Cleric, or any prepared spellcasters, but saying that taking 6 clerics levels and then 5 sorcerer levels means that your sorcerer can instantly learn 4th-level spell and end up learning up to 6th-level sorcerer spell, which taking 5 sorcerer levels then 6 cleric levels would mean that your sorcerer spells would all be of lv 1-3. And in both case, Cleric spell progression would be the same (since they would be able to select new cleric spells who would become available as they gain sorcerer level).
So not only is it not the rule, I would be very wary of making it the rule, because a 1lv dip in a class with a big spell list like Wizard or Cleric would grant you access to their entire spell list, as almost no cost, and would make these multiclassing way more attractive than any other. Also the issue of "multiclassing order", where spontaneous spellcasters would be impacted negatively by this compared to their prepared counterparts.
Ravnodaus, this has been very clearly adjudicated by the Wizards folk:
If you're a Sorc 2/Cleric 3:
You have the same number of Sorcerer spells that a Level 2 Sorcerer has. Therefore you have 4 Sorcerer cantrips, and 3 Sorcerer spells, all of which can only be 1st-level spells.
You "know" all of the spells available to a 3rd-level Cleric, meaning 1st- and 2nd-level spells, and can prepare a number of them equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier. You also know 3 Cleric cantrips.
When you cast a spell you chose off the Sorcerer list, Charisma is your spellcasting ability. When you cast a spell you chose off the Cleric list, you cast with Wisdom. It doesn't matter if the spell is available on both lists, you use the ability for the class you chose it from.
Since both classes use the Spellcasting class feature and not Pact Magic, you add your Sorcerer and Cleric levels together, and you are considered a 5th-level caster on the Multiclass Spellcaster table for determining how many spell slots and what level. Yes, you will have two 3rd-level spell slots, but no 3rd-level spells. So it would be a smart move to have some spells you can cast at higher levels for greater effect, like Burning Hands or Cure Wounds.
You seem determined to interpret the rules to say that you'd be able to learn 3rd-level spells because you're a 5th-level caster. This is not the case. It is EXPLICITLY not the case, as stated in the PHB. If your group wants to houserule this otherwise, obviously that's up to you and your fellow players. But it would be changing the rules as both written and intended.
That's not the bit he's quibbling jd. He fully understands the rules, but he's thinking we're making an assumption that 'you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class' means you can't factor the multiclass spell slots.
His reasoning is that the Sorcerer entry says 'The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.' In his mind, even if you considered yourself a single class (a level 2 sorcerer in this case), you can still use the spell slots from your multiclass table.
His reasoning for that is that in the multiclass rules, it says you refer to the multiclass table to know how many slots you have. He's not finding enough in the rules to abandon the multiclass table when looking at what spells he can learn. He thinks that is a leap in logic.
The rules have been clarified however, and so this is now flogging a deceased pegasus. Explaining the rules again doesn't satisfy his assumption that we're making a leap of logic. But Jeremy Crawford confirmed it. So that's all there is to it - his issue now, therefore, is with the PhB and the RAW - not what the actual ruling is.
The ironic bit of this entire thread is the sentence after the one that has been quoted back and forth for two pages of response:
from Spells Known of 1st level and Higher for the sorcerer:
”For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.”
There it is in the rules, plain as day. The only thing that matters when choosing spells known for your sorc class is levels in that class. You gain access to 2nd level sorc spells when you “reach third level in this class.”
I’m sure this will elicit a response of “I remain unconvinced” but I wondered after reading through this entire thread why no one has pointed that sentence out. It is as concrete as it gets. It would be quite tough to interpret that sentence in another way.
If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
The example given says that we only know 3 ranger spells, and that must all be of first level. This is indeed what would a ranger 3 who didn't multiclass would know.
The example also says that we have a spellbook with 10 wizard spells: 6 spells gained at wizard level 1, then 2 more at wizard level 2, then 2 more at wizard level 3. Because we add these spells to our spellbook as though we didn't multiclass, the only point where we're able to add 2nd level spells is when we reach Wizard level 3.
Ranger and Wizard aren't Sorcerers and their Spellcasting rules are different. How something works for one is not how it works for another... unless the rules actually say so.
The Ranger and Sorcerer spellcasting rules are actually word-for-word identical.
My question relates to the character builder. I created a new character Warlock 4/Rogue 1. The builder is not letting me access 2nd level spells. I created a Warlock 4 and it works correctly, which leads me to believe it has to be due to multi-classing. My understanding is that pact magic isn't affected by the "Spell casting" rules and warlock isn't listed in that rule. Also, since my Warlock is the only casting class, the spell casting rules under multi-classing wouldn't be in effect any way.
Am I missing something, or is the character builder bugged?
My question relates to the character builder. I created a new character Warlock 4/Rogue 1. The builder is not letting me access 2nd level spells. I created a Warlock 4 and it works correctly, which leads me to believe it has to be due to multi-classing. My understanding is that pact magic isn't affected by the "Spell casting" rules and warlock isn't listed in that rule. Also, since my Warlock is the only casting class, the spell casting rules under multi-classing wouldn't be in effect any way.
Am I missing something, or is the character builder bugged?
Try refreshing the builder after changing levels or choose your spells in the character sheet.
My question relates to the character builder. I created a new character Warlock 4/Rogue 1. The builder is not letting me access 2nd level spells. I created a Warlock 4 and it works correctly, which leads me to believe it has to be due to multi-classing. My understanding is that pact magic isn't affected by the "Spell casting" rules and warlock isn't listed in that rule. Also, since my Warlock is the only casting class, the spell casting rules under multi-classing wouldn't be in effect any way.
Am I missing something, or is the character builder bugged?
Try refreshing the builder after changing levels or choose your spells in the character sheet.
Thanks, refreshing the builder worked. Although I swear when I was originally testing it, I had closed and reopened the character. All that matters is that it worked.
Quick question regarding spell casting as a multi class. My effective character level is 8, (Barb 7/ Warlock 1 (it's a for fun build.)) but I'm only level 1 in my new spell casting class. Do my cantrips gain the benefit of being a level 8 character and have the extra effects or are they still considered level 1 cantrips?
Quick question regarding spell casting as a multi class. My effective character level is 8, (Barb 7/ Warlock 1 (it's a for fun build.)) but I'm only level 1 in my new spell casting class. Do my cantrips gain the benefit of being a level 8 character and have the extra effects or are they still considered level 1 cantrips?
Cantrips scale off character level. So you are level 8 as far as cantrip scale is concerned.
That's not the bit he's quibbling jd. He fully understands the rules, but he's thinking we're making an assumption that 'you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class' means you can't factor the multiclass spell slots.
His reasoning is that the Sorcerer entry says 'The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.' In his mind, even if you considered yourself a single class (a level 2 sorcerer in this case), you can still use the spell slots from your multiclass table.
His reasoning for that is that in the multiclass rules, it says you refer to the multiclass table to know how many slots you have. He's not finding enough in the rules to abandon the multiclass table when looking at what spells he can learn. He thinks that is a leap in logic.
The rules have been clarified however, and so this is now flogging a deceased pegasus. Explaining the rules again doesn't satisfy his assumption that we're making a leap of logic. But Jeremy Crawford confirmed it. So that's all there is to it - his issue now, therefore, is with the PhB and the RAW - not what the actual ruling is.
Not sure why this thread was necro'd... but I had stopped checking on it and missed out seeing this response. But this is exactly it, what I was getting at, and worded succinctly.
I wasn't looking for how to rule it in a game per se, or what was RAI, but just the RAW itself. I got my answer, the part of the rules I was looking for simply isn't printed in the rulebooks. That's fine, we simply use RAI anyway. I just for the life of me couldn't figure out why some folk claimed it was RAW when it was only RAI. Idk, maybe that distinction isn't very important. Pedantic semantics, maybe. But thank you for your comment, nice to know someone understood my rambling.
Rules are clear: You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A sorcerer 4 doesn't have level 3 slots. And a sorcerer 4 / wizard 10 is not a "single-classed member". A single-classed spellcaster doesn't use the multiclass table. If you used the multiclass table you would not be preparing your spells as if you were a single-classed sorcerer, so you would be breaking the rule. Ask your DM if you want that fireball so badly, but RAW is not contradicting or has a loophole.
What you are doing is not clever.
In general you are right. A multiclassed spellcaster ignores their individual class spell slots.
But you are specifically told to only use your single class chart when determining what spells you can learn and prepare. And specific trumps general.
Did I mention that there was even an example that shows this? You are alone arguing against the rules and 4 other people. If you didnt want to be wrong why did you even start this thread?
Except for when determining what spells are known or can be prepared. That's the entire crux of this issue.
Regarding hostility, I apologise if I've come across as such. I completely see how you are reading and understanding the rules - but you are missing a key ruling each time you parse this down.
That's not what is being said. But rather the spells you can cast or can be prepare must be determined as though you were a single member of a class. Let's parse this down:
That is the RAW ruling, which completely makes sense to me. I am not sure how to explain this in any other way, but I'm willing to help - I don't believe you're wilfully trying ignore the rules, something just isn't clicking. So let's keep plugging away at it, until it makes sense!
You don't have those spell slots available if you don't have those extra class levels though.
Let's say you're Sorcerer 5/ Bard 8, and gain a sorcerer level.
You follow the rules:
So you only can only learn new spells as if you were a 6th level sorcerer. You can't have a 5th level spell slot, since in that moment, you don't count as Sorcerer 6/Bard 8, but only as sorcerer 6. This is the only way this sentence makes sense.
Also, your argument about the specific wording of the sorcerer spell learning doesn't hold, because ranger is worded the same way:
How do you make the example from the rulebook make sense then ? By your interpretation, the ranger should be able to know spells of higher-level.
But really, go to reddit, go to boards, you can even go to twitter ask Jeremy Crawford himself, I guarantee you, you will never find anyone agreeing with you.
And a bit of googling actually tells me that he already did answer.
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And this ends it really, because I think at the end of the day, Ravnodaus feels we're making a 'leap of logic' or an assumption.
He said, ''You've made a leap in logic there. An assumption, if you will, is being made in your interpretation, an assumption that "as if you were a single-classed member of that class" is always the same thing as "you know the spells a sorcerer who didn't multiclass might know".
This has been clarified by the game's designer. So it is no longer an assumption. I'd take it up with the writers if you're not happy that the rules are clear enough in the PhB, but I think we're just about done here in terms of clarifying the RAW.
I'm not sure if you have an older version of the PHB where you are seeing differences here or are just paying attention to different parts for each one but the only one of these that reads differently for me (outside of the wizard found spells, which I didn't look for) is warlock and that's because the warlock slots work differently than all of the others. All of a Warlock's slots are always the same level and they level up along with the warlock. That's the only one that I saw that specifically referenced looking back at the chart and the rest referred to the spell slots available.
That said, I'm not sure how you can read the example of a ranger 4/wizard 3 and not see that it applies to your theoretical multiclassed sorcerer. In fact, if you swap out wizard for sorcerer, you would still have a 5th level spellcaster. The spell selection available and number of spells known would probably change (too late to verify, but I'm pretty certain wizard has more spells known at each corresponding level than a sorcerer. Therefore, if a ranger 4/Wizard 3 would be a 5th level spellcaster and would have access to 4 first level slots, 3 second level slots, and 2 third level slots, but could only learn three 1st level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class and the wizard spells could only be, at best 2nd level spells because of the wizard level... DESPITE the character having access to 2 third level spell slots, it would stand to reason that a ranger 4/sorcerer 3 would work the same factoring in the difference in the number of spells known that a sorcerer would have versus a wizard.
Now, working on the assumption that the differences that you pointed out here did have an effect and weren't clarified via errata, then there would be an example of how that would work or a secondary paragraph explaining how the interaction would be different for that class and others (similar to the Pact Magic). Considering the lack of the secondary example explicitly for sorcerer and for an exclusive paragraph for sorcerer similar to Pact Magic (warlock magic), it again stands to reason that the example of the ranger 4/wizard 3 can be the same as the ranger 4/sorcerer 3. Thus if the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 can have access to 2 third level spell slots but still be capped at casting second level spells, then that would be how the ranger 4/sorcerer 3 would work as well. That is how we are coming to the determination of what the character would know.
A final point. If the spell selection options that you are suggesting are RAW were actually RAW, then there would have to be an explanation for how the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 became a Ranger 4/Wizard 3. If they took 3 levels of Wizard first, then the character would already be a 3rd level caster at 4th level and would be able to select 2nd level ranger spells (which was already explained as not a possibility). If the character started out as a Ranger 4 and then took the three levels of wizard spells, then they would be able to select third level spells once they hit 7th level and became a 5th level caster with access to third level spell slots, which the example clearly stated was not the case.
At any rate, the explanation has been stated quite clearly by the others (I had to change my reply once I read the other replies to not be completely redundant). It appears from your comments that you at least play according to the rules. I won't fault you for sticking to your guns on this issue as I've done so as well on points (some of which I'm still not sure are not RAW by my reading, but hey the DM is the final say on how the rules work at your table. If your reading is more conservative than the RAW, you play it your way. If your reading is more liberal than the RAW, as in the case of being able to select 3rd level spells as a 3rd level sorcerer (or getting access to the always prepared spells that classes like cleric have based off character level rather than cleric level, one of my mistakes that I've come around on); then you'll want to get the approval of the DM before playing it that way.
Since the rules question is either clear, or will be impossible to clear, I will add that there are balance and "lore" reasons as to why this works this way.
If we had a Wizard 16, who suddenly discovered the godly life, and decided to become a Wizard 16/Cleric 1, it would mean that not only would they be instantly able to access the entire spell list of the cleric, but stopping their wizardly studies and becoming a cleric would actually make them more powerful as wizards as well, since they would now be able to cast Wish (they would, however, need to find a way to add it to their spellbook). Being a good wizard shouldn't mean that dabbbling in cleric instantly makes you the strongest cleric spellcaster there is.
Also, 5e tried to streamline a lot of things, and it's clearly not in its DNA to require you to remember the order you gained levels in, as you pointed out. It might be less important for Wizards, or Cleric, or any prepared spellcasters, but saying that taking 6 clerics levels and then 5 sorcerer levels means that your sorcerer can instantly learn 4th-level spell and end up learning up to 6th-level sorcerer spell, which taking 5 sorcerer levels then 6 cleric levels would mean that your sorcerer spells would all be of lv 1-3. And in both case, Cleric spell progression would be the same (since they would be able to select new cleric spells who would become available as they gain sorcerer level).
So not only is it not the rule, I would be very wary of making it the rule, because a 1lv dip in a class with a big spell list like Wizard or Cleric would grant you access to their entire spell list, as almost no cost, and would make these multiclassing way more attractive than any other. Also the issue of "multiclassing order", where spontaneous spellcasters would be impacted negatively by this compared to their prepared counterparts.
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Ravnodaus, this has been very clearly adjudicated by the Wizards folk:
If you're a Sorc 2/Cleric 3:
You have the same number of Sorcerer spells that a Level 2 Sorcerer has. Therefore you have 4 Sorcerer cantrips, and 3 Sorcerer spells, all of which can only be 1st-level spells.
You "know" all of the spells available to a 3rd-level Cleric, meaning 1st- and 2nd-level spells, and can prepare a number of them equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier. You also know 3 Cleric cantrips.
When you cast a spell you chose off the Sorcerer list, Charisma is your spellcasting ability. When you cast a spell you chose off the Cleric list, you cast with Wisdom. It doesn't matter if the spell is available on both lists, you use the ability for the class you chose it from.
Since both classes use the Spellcasting class feature and not Pact Magic, you add your Sorcerer and Cleric levels together, and you are considered a 5th-level caster on the Multiclass Spellcaster table for determining how many spell slots and what level. Yes, you will have two 3rd-level spell slots, but no 3rd-level spells. So it would be a smart move to have some spells you can cast at higher levels for greater effect, like Burning Hands or Cure Wounds.
You seem determined to interpret the rules to say that you'd be able to learn 3rd-level spells because you're a 5th-level caster. This is not the case. It is EXPLICITLY not the case, as stated in the PHB. If your group wants to houserule this otherwise, obviously that's up to you and your fellow players. But it would be changing the rules as both written and intended.
That's not the bit he's quibbling jd. He fully understands the rules, but he's thinking we're making an assumption that 'you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class' means you can't factor the multiclass spell slots.
His reasoning is that the Sorcerer entry says 'The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.' In his mind, even if you considered yourself a single class (a level 2 sorcerer in this case), you can still use the spell slots from your multiclass table.
His reasoning for that is that in the multiclass rules, it says you refer to the multiclass table to know how many slots you have. He's not finding enough in the rules to abandon the multiclass table when looking at what spells he can learn. He thinks that is a leap in logic.
The rules have been clarified however, and so this is now flogging a deceased pegasus. Explaining the rules again doesn't satisfy his assumption that we're making a leap of logic. But Jeremy Crawford confirmed it. So that's all there is to it - his issue now, therefore, is with the PhB and the RAW - not what the actual ruling is.
The ironic bit of this entire thread is the sentence after the one that has been quoted back and forth for two pages of response:
from Spells Known of 1st level and Higher for the sorcerer:
”For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.”
There it is in the rules, plain as day. The only thing that matters when choosing spells known for your sorc class is levels in that class. You gain access to 2nd level sorc spells when you “reach third level in this class.”
I’m sure this will elicit a response of “I remain unconvinced” but I wondered after reading through this entire thread why no one has pointed that sentence out. It is as concrete as it gets. It would be quite tough to interpret that sentence in another way.
An example is not a rule. This points us towards the correct interpretation, but the correct rule is in the multiclassing section.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
But it is a good example that contradicts what the OP was claiming and the follow ups were.
As for why it was overlooked... I didn't read that section until I skimmed it for my last response and I missed it then.
The Ranger and Sorcerer spellcasting rules are actually word-for-word identical.
My question relates to the character builder. I created a new character Warlock 4/Rogue 1. The builder is not letting me access 2nd level spells. I created a Warlock 4 and it works correctly, which leads me to believe it has to be due to multi-classing. My understanding is that pact magic isn't affected by the "Spell casting" rules and warlock isn't listed in that rule. Also, since my Warlock is the only casting class, the spell casting rules under multi-classing wouldn't be in effect any way.
Am I missing something, or is the character builder bugged?
Try refreshing the builder after changing levels or choose your spells in the character sheet.
Thanks, refreshing the builder worked. Although I swear when I was originally testing it, I had closed and reopened the character. All that matters is that it worked.
Quick question regarding spell casting as a multi class. My effective character level is 8, (Barb 7/ Warlock 1 (it's a for fun build.)) but I'm only level 1 in my new spell casting class. Do my cantrips gain the benefit of being a level 8 character and have the extra effects or are they still considered level 1 cantrips?
Cantrips scale off character level. So you are level 8 as far as cantrip scale is concerned.
Thanks for helping clarify.
Not sure why this thread was necro'd... but I had stopped checking on it and missed out seeing this response. But this is exactly it, what I was getting at, and worded succinctly.
I wasn't looking for how to rule it in a game per se, or what was RAI, but just the RAW itself. I got my answer, the part of the rules I was looking for simply isn't printed in the rulebooks. That's fine, we simply use RAI anyway. I just for the life of me couldn't figure out why some folk claimed it was RAW when it was only RAI. Idk, maybe that distinction isn't very important. Pedantic semantics, maybe. But thank you for your comment, nice to know someone understood my rambling.
I got quotes!
Rules are clear: You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A sorcerer 4 doesn't have level 3 slots. And a sorcerer 4 / wizard 10 is not a "single-classed member". A single-classed spellcaster doesn't use the multiclass table. If you used the multiclass table you would not be preparing your spells as if you were a single-classed sorcerer, so you would be breaking the rule. Ask your DM if you want that fireball so badly, but RAW is not contradicting or has a loophole.