You CAN cast 3rd level spells: Multiclass rules say "spells known as if you were a single class" > "as if you were a single class" is actually just referring us to the more specific sorcerer class rules for learning/replacing spells > sorcerer rule specifically states you can learn a new spell "for which you have a spell slot of that level" > RAW don't say where those slots must come from > my level 5 char DOES have 3rd level slots as provided by the multiclassing spell slot rules which overwrite the individual class ones > therefore I can learn it. END. (This reading suggests that in this case the general multiclassing rule is directing us to the more specific sorcerer class rule for knowing spells - we know specific beats general)
The problem with this presentation is that the sorcerer single class rules are the general rule and multiclass rules are the specific rule. Turning around and saying that the specific rule is now the general rule and vice versa makes no sense. If you have a problem with this line of thinking, consider that the sorcerer single class (along with all of the other classes of the PHB) are presented as rules available for all players. However, the multiclass rules are presented as optional rules. A DM can overrule the availability of classes, but generally that is not done. While it seems that multiclassing is a generally accepted way of playing, the 6th chapter point out that your DM must OK the customization rules which includes multiclassing. Therefore, multiclassing would be the exception to the rule like limiting sorcerers would be. Since specific beats general, the multiclass rules trump the general rules. The example:
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
If you compare a ranger 4 single class to the description given, you will find that they will correspond. Likewise, you will find that a Wizard 3 will know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. However, a Ranger 4 is a second level caster and a Wizard 3 is a third level caster. A multiclass character with those options would be a 5th level caster and have 2 3rd level spell slots.
The Wizard's Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher:
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).
This has the exact same language that the Sorcerer has as far as the spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. If the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 has third level spell slots, why would they not say that you could choose a Third Level Spell in the example unless you can't? Dismissing the example as if it's not rules and carries as much weight as a JC tweet is ridiculous considering that it is in the rule book.
Now, if a DM wants to rule that a Wizard 1/Cleric 16/Barbarian 3 to cast Wishbecause that character has a 9th level spell slot, they can do so. But that's because they are the DM and can overrule the rules, not because the rules say that the character can.
I know this is an older thread, and a lot of you are sick of it, but I thought I'd try to point out the key phrase.
"Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
The key phrase I would like to point out is "as if you were a single-classed member of that class". When you prepare or learn your spells, it is as if you are single class and therefore as if you are not multiclass. You pretend to only have the levels for the class whose spells you are preparing or learning. You are pretending to not be multiclassed.
So, yes, multiclass rules point you to single class rules. Then sorcerer rules tell you to learn spells for which you have slots. But remember, we are pretending to only have sorcerer levels. We are pretending to not be multiclass. We are pretending that we are only a level 3 sorcerer, not a sorcerer 3/wizard 8. We are pretending that we don't have multiclass spell slots, because we are pretending to be a single class, level 3 sorcerer. So how would you choose spells for a level 3 sorcerer with no other class levels? That is how you choose spells for a sorcerer 3/anything else X.
It is only after you have prepared or learned spells for each individual class you have levels in, that reality rushes back in, you stop pretending and you are once again a multiclass with multiclass spell slots that are higher than any spell slots you would receive from any of your individual classes.
I've seen the argument that this approach means you ignore any extra spells known or prepared based on ability score increases granted by class levels other than the one you are currently preparing for. Well RAW, that is correct. It is as if you never got that +2 Int from your 6th fighter level. You do prepare one less wizard spell.
RAI is another matter. I think most people would say "No, prepare wizard spells as if you only had wizard levels, but you still had your current Int score.", and I would agree to that, but RAW it is as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
I know this is an older thread, and a lot of you are sick of it, but I thought I'd try to point out the key phrase.
"Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
The key phrase I would like to point out is "as if you were a single-classed member of that class". When you prepare or learn your spells, it is as if you are single class and therefore as if you are not multiclass. You pretend to only have the levels for the class whose spells you are preparing or learning. You are pretending to not be multiclassed.
So, yes, multiclass rules point you to single class rules. Then sorcerer rules tell you to learn spells for which you have slots. But remember, we are pretending to only have sorcerer levels. We are pretending to not be multiclass. We are pretending that we are only a level 3 sorcerer, not a sorcerer 3/wizard 8. We are pretending that we don't have multiclass spell slots, because we are pretending to be a single class, level 3 sorcerer. So how would you choose spells for a level 3 sorcerer with no other class levels? That is how you choose spells for a sorcerer 3/anything else X.
It is only after you have prepared or learned spells for each individual class you have levels in, that reality rushes back in, you stop pretending and you are once again a multiclass with multiclass spell slots that are higher than any spell slots you would receive from any of your individual classes.
I've seen the argument that this approach means you ignore any extra spells known or prepared based on ability score increases granted by class levels other than the one you are currently preparing for. Well RAW, that is correct. It is as if you never got that +2 Int from your 6th fighter level. You do prepare one less wizard spell.
RAI is another matter. I think most people would say "No, prepare wizard spells as if you only had wizard levels, but you still had your current Int score.", and I would agree to that, but RAW it is as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
To expound on this since this will now likely take off like wildfire:
Your capacity for spellcasting depends partly on your combined levels in all your spellcasting classes and partly on your individual levels in those classes. Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below. If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.
If a cantrip of yours increases in power at higher levels, the increase is based on your character level, not your level in a particular class.
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
Sorcerer rules from the PHB specifically from Spells known (boldfaced emphasis added):
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Ranger rules from the PHB specifically from Spells known (boldfaced emphasis added):
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the ranger spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Ranger table shows when you learn more ranger spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 5th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the ranger spells you know and replace it with another spell from the ranger spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Wizard rules from the PHB specifically from Preparing and Casting Spells (boldfaced emphasis added):
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
For example, if you’re a 3rd-level wizard, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With an Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spellbook. If you prepare the 1st-level spell magic missile, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of wizard spells requires time spent studying your spellbook and memorizing the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
In each of these cases, you must be of a level for which you had spells slots and the Ranger rules have the exact same wording as Sorcerer. The example of the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 in the Player's Handbook is Rules As Written and is there for clarification just in case this type of confusion occurred. See my post #61 for the explanation of the consequences of the example. Now, as barleyregal stated, I am sick of this thread. I will not be contributing to this thread any more and will simply unsubscribe if anyone wants to start yammering on about how the PHB example is wrong because it contradicts what is in the single class rules about the spell slots.
I know this is an older thread, and a lot of you are sick of it, but I thought I'd try to point out the key phrase.
"Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
The key phrase I would like to point out is "as if you were a single-classed member of that class". When you prepare or learn your spells, it is as if you are single class and therefore as if you are not multiclass. You pretend to only have the levels for the class whose spells you are preparing or learning. You are pretending to not be multiclassed.
Nothing about that suggests you pretend you're a lower character level. So if you were to pretend you were just a single class then you'd be your character level in that class.... So if you're a 5 cleric/5 wizard, and pretended you were just a single class, you would pretend you're a 10 cleric or a 10 wizard.
I know this is an older thread, and a lot of you are sick of it, but I thought I'd try to point out the key phrase.
"Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
The key phrase I would like to point out is "as if you were a single-classed member of that class". When you prepare or learn your spells, it is as if you are single class and therefore as if you are not multiclass. You pretend to only have the levels for the class whose spells you are preparing or learning. You are pretending to not be multiclassed.
Nothing about that suggests you pretend you're a lower character level. So if you were to pretend you were just a single class then you'd be your character level in that class.... So if you're a 5 cleric/5 wizard, and pretended you were just a single class, you would pretend you're a 10 cleric or a 10 wizard.
You're absolutely correct. The rules explicitly state you prepare spells as if you were a single class, but do not explicitly state what level you must pretend to be.
But you aren't thinking big enough! It also doesn't state that you have to pretend to be the level you already are! You could pretend to be a 20th level spellcaster and gain access to all of the ritual spells! Ritual spells can be cast without expending spell slots so you could be a wizard 1/cleric 1 and instantly gain access to the 6th level ritual spell forbiddance!
I know this is an older thread, and a lot of you are sick of it, but I thought I'd try to point out the key phrase.
"Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
The key phrase I would like to point out is "as if you were a single-classed member of that class". When you prepare or learn your spells, it is as if you are single class and therefore as if you are not multiclass. You pretend to only have the levels for the class whose spells you are preparing or learning. You are pretending to not be multiclassed.
Nothing about that suggests you pretend you're a lower character level. So if you were to pretend you were just a single class then you'd be your character level in that class.... So if you're a 5 cleric/5 wizard, and pretended you were just a single class, you would pretend you're a 10 cleric or a 10 wizard.
Aren't you missing a bit from that section that actually provides an example?
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
The example provided in the section immediately after the sentence you quoted explains how you use class levels (not character levels) to determine spells prepared and/or known
The example provided in the section immediately after the sentence you quoted explains how you use class levels (not character levels) to determine spells prepared and/or known
This is what boggles my mind. The text of the PHB is quite explicit about how multiclassed spellcasting works, yet some people continue to deny the words right in front of their face.
This time the example is in the text of the rules that you have to ignore to live in your invented rule system, Rav.
There are different rules for the various classes, even in a similar feature, such as Spellcasting. It doesn't work the same way for each class. And example of how it works for one class doesn't, necessarily, mean it works the same way for another set of classes. I am fully aware of this nuance, and you... maybe aren't?
I just go by what is actually on the page. So if that's my invention? Well...
I know this is an older thread, and a lot of you are sick of it, but I thought I'd try to point out the key phrase.
"Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
The key phrase I would like to point out is "as if you were a single-classed member of that class". When you prepare or learn your spells, it is as if you are single class and therefore as if you are not multiclass. You pretend to only have the levels for the class whose spells you are preparing or learning. You are pretending to not be multiclassed.
Nothing about that suggests you pretend you're a lower character level. So if you were to pretend you were just a single class then you'd be your character level in that class.... So if you're a 5 cleric/5 wizard, and pretended you were just a single class, you would pretend you're a 10 cleric or a 10 wizard.
Aren't you missing a bit from that section that actually provides an example?
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
The example provided in the section immediately after the sentence you quoted explains how you use class levels (not character levels) to determine spells prepared and/or known
Hi there. I was responding to someone who was entirely inventing a new "rule" and trying to tell us to follow it. What they suggested to do isn't in the book. At no time does the bok call for the players to "pretend they are single class" and so i responded to that false claim and demonstrated how it would be a poor rule even if we did follow it. Your response to that, seems... off the mark. Like maybe you didn't follow the content of what was being discussed.
This time the example is in the text of the rules that you have to ignore to live in your invented rule system, Rav.
There are different rules for the various classes, even in a similar feature, such as Spellcasting. It doesn't work the same way for each class. And example of how it works for one class doesn't, necessarily, mean it works the same way for another set of classes. I am fully aware of this nuance, and you... maybe aren't?
I just go by what is actually on the page. So if that's my invention? Well...
Sure. but none of them says that you can pretend that you've got more levels in the class than you currently do or are any more complex than a ranger/wizard MC. Don't be daft on purpose -- that is trolling.
And No, by the way, you don't go by what is actually on the page, you go by the part of what is actually on the page that gets the rule to say what you think it does and ignore the rest.
This time the example is in the text of the rules that you have to ignore to live in your invented rule system, Rav.
There are different rules for the various classes, even in a similar feature, such as Spellcasting. It doesn't work the same way for each class. And example of how it works for one class doesn't, necessarily, mean it works the same way for another set of classes. I am fully aware of this nuance, and you... maybe aren't?
I just go by what is actually on the page. So if that's my invention? Well...
Sure. but none of them says that you can pretend that you've got more levels in the class than you currently do or are any more complex than a ranger/wizard MC. Don't be daft on purpose -- that is trolling.
And No, by the way, you don't go by what is actually on the page, you go by the part of what is actually on the page that gets the rule to say what you think it does and ignore the rest.
Well, some tell you that you choose spells based on the table, and others tell you to choose spells based on available spell slots.
So, there is, in fact, a very relevant difference between them. You're free to ignore anything in the books that you like to. Tends to not be considered RAW when you do, though.
They also refer to the table which tells you how many slots you have. The multiclass rules still tell you to consider yourself a single classed member of that class, and go on to show you how you are supposed to ignore your other class levels. It isn't rocket science, it is one guy refusing to understand purposefully.
They also refer to the table which tells you how many slots you have. The multiclass rules still tell you to consider yourself a single classed member of that class, and go on to show you how you are supposed to ignore your other class levels. It isn't rocket science, it is one guy refusing to understand purposefully.
You now what's funny about this Wolf? You should agree with me on this one. Because the whole argument is you only interact with the relevant rules section when it is relevant. To see you arguing against that idea is just weird.
For a Wizard, for example, he specifically invokes the Preparing and Casting Spells section of his Spellcasting rules, for determining which spells he can cast as a Wizard.
But, a Sorcerer, has Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher section of his spellcasting rules. This section alone tells him which spells he can know as a sorcerer.
Why is this important? Because we only use the rules that are relevant when they are relevant.
So, lets compare the difference between these rules excerpts.
The Wizard table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your Spells of 1st Level and higher. To cast one of these Spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.
For example, if you're a 3rd-level Wizard, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level Spell Slots. With an Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared Spells can include six Spells of 1st or 2nd Level, in any combination, chosen from your Spellbook. If you prepare the 1st-level spell Magic Missile, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn't remove it from your list of prepared Spells.
You can change your list of prepared Spells when you finish a Long Rest. Preparing a new list of Wizard Spells requires time spent studying your Spellbook and memorizing the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per Spell Level for each spell on your list.
You know two 1st-level Spells of your choice from the Sorcerer spell list.
You learn an additional Sorcerer spell of your choice at each level except 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 19th, and 20th. Each of these Spellsmust be of a level for which you have Spell Slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd Level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd Level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the Sorcerer Spells you know and replace it with another spell from the Sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have Spell Slots.
As a single class sorcerer you can learn spells for any level of which you have spell slots. A wizard, on the other hand, can only learn spells for the levels listed on their table.
Per their individual respective rules text. That's RAW.
RAI? Naw, no one plays it like that. RAW? Yes, that's what the rules says.
They also refer to the table which tells you how many slots you have. The multiclass rules still tell you to consider yourself a single classed member of that class, and go on to show you how you are supposed to ignore your other class levels. It isn't rocket science, it is one guy refusing to understand purposefully.
They also refer to the table which tells you how many slots you have. The multiclass rules still tell you to consider yourself a single classed member of that class, and go on to show you how you are supposed to ignore your other class levels. It isn't rocket science, it is one guy refusing to understand purposefully.
But then it's hard to remain consistent when you say that you don't have to hold a spellcasting focus but must do so all in the same thread.
Do you want RAW or RAI? Don't conflate them. RAW is what the page says. RAI is what they are trying to tell us. The RAI is perfectly clear. No one is arguing against the RAI.
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Multiclass rules has two sections for this spellcasting bit that are relevant here. Spells Known/Prepared and Spell Slots. Because these are 2 separate sections, they work independently of one another. Both of these sections tell us to supersede the related rules of our single class with these new muticlass rules. They both do this independently.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook. Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.
This section modifies the Spells Known or Spells Prepared functionality of other classes.
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, and half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table. If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level. For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
This section modifies the Spell Slots functionality of the other classes.
...............................
They operate individually.
Only the fist one tells us to act as a single class for one specific purpose: Which spells we know.
The second one tells us which spell slots are available to us, and does not have us ever act as a single class.
This multiclass Spell Slots rule is the specific rule that overrides the general class rules for Spell Slots.
The request to treat yourself as a single class is only in regard to spells known, and not in regard to spell slots.
And a single class sorcerer can learn spells for which they have spell slots.
..........................
Hypothetical: A god grants a L1 Sorcerer a 3rd level spell slot. Yes, we're in the weeds here, but follow along.
When the sorcerer levels up. Can he learn Fireball or not? He is level 2 now. Character level and class level... but has a 3rd level slot. Can he learn Fireball?
Yes. Yes he can.
A single class sorcerer can learn a spell for which he has spell slots.
You now what's funny about this Wolf? You should agree with me on this one. Because the whole argument is you only interact with the relevant rules section when it is relevant. To see you arguing against that idea is just weird.
For a Wizard, for example, he specifically invokes the Preparing and Casting Spells section of his Spellcasting rules, for determining which spells he can cast as a Wizard.
But, a Sorcerer, has Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher section of his spellcasting rules. This section alone tells him which spells he can know as a sorcerer...
I will say again what I said before here. The spellcasting section for a Sorcerer is identical - absolutely word-for-word identical - to the Ranger spellcasting description. That means the example in the PHB which involves a Wizard/Ranger would work the same as a Wizard/Sorcerer. That example clarifies the rule and allows only one interpretation.
The sorcerer rule is not written with multiclassing in mind -- With that said, the rule tells you how it works and even uses the words "in this class" in its example (which, again, you have to ignore if you want to invent a non-standard reading of the rule); the rule in one sentence refers you to your class table then in the next sentence continues on talking about information in that table without a second reference to that table.
The problem with this presentation is that the sorcerer single class rules are the general rule and multiclass rules are the specific rule. Turning around and saying that the specific rule is now the general rule and vice versa makes no sense. If you have a problem with this line of thinking, consider that the sorcerer single class (along with all of the other classes of the PHB) are presented as rules available for all players. However, the multiclass rules are presented as optional rules. A DM can overrule the availability of classes, but generally that is not done. While it seems that multiclassing is a generally accepted way of playing, the 6th chapter point out that your DM must OK the customization rules which includes multiclassing. Therefore, multiclassing would be the exception to the rule like limiting sorcerers would be. Since specific beats general, the multiclass rules trump the general rules. The example:
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
If you compare a ranger 4 single class to the description given, you will find that they will correspond. Likewise, you will find that a Wizard 3 will know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. However, a Ranger 4 is a second level caster and a Wizard 3 is a third level caster. A multiclass character with those options would be a 5th level caster and have 2 3rd level spell slots.
The Wizard's Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher:
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).
This has the exact same language that the Sorcerer has as far as the spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. If the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 has third level spell slots, why would they not say that you could choose a Third Level Spell in the example unless you can't? Dismissing the example as if it's not rules and carries as much weight as a JC tweet is ridiculous considering that it is in the rule book.
Now, if a DM wants to rule that a Wizard 1/Cleric 16/Barbarian 3 to cast Wishbecause that character has a 9th level spell slot, they can do so. But that's because they are the DM and can overrule the rules, not because the rules say that the character can.
I know this is an older thread, and a lot of you are sick of it, but I thought I'd try to point out the key phrase.
"Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
The key phrase I would like to point out is "as if you were a single-classed member of that class". When you prepare or learn your spells, it is as if you are single class and therefore as if you are not multiclass. You pretend to only have the levels for the class whose spells you are preparing or learning. You are pretending to not be multiclassed.
So, yes, multiclass rules point you to single class rules. Then sorcerer rules tell you to learn spells for which you have slots. But remember, we are pretending to only have sorcerer levels. We are pretending to not be multiclass. We are pretending that we are only a level 3 sorcerer, not a sorcerer 3/wizard 8. We are pretending that we don't have multiclass spell slots, because we are pretending to be a single class, level 3 sorcerer. So how would you choose spells for a level 3 sorcerer with no other class levels? That is how you choose spells for a sorcerer 3/anything else X.
It is only after you have prepared or learned spells for each individual class you have levels in, that reality rushes back in, you stop pretending and you are once again a multiclass with multiclass spell slots that are higher than any spell slots you would receive from any of your individual classes.
I've seen the argument that this approach means you ignore any extra spells known or prepared based on ability score increases granted by class levels other than the one you are currently preparing for. Well RAW, that is correct. It is as if you never got that +2 Int from your 6th fighter level. You do prepare one less wizard spell.
RAI is another matter. I think most people would say "No, prepare wizard spells as if you only had wizard levels, but you still had your current Int score.", and I would agree to that, but RAW it is as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
To expound on this since this will now likely take off like wildfire:
Player's Handbook Multiclass Spellcasting rules from DnDBeyond here. Basic Rules Multiclass spellcasting rules here. Ranger PHB Spellcasting rules here. Ranger Basic Rules Spellcasting rules here. Wizard PHB Spellcasting rules here. Wizard BR spellcasting rules here. Sorcerer PHB Spellcasting rules here. Sorcerer BR Spellcasting rules here.
Sorcerer rules from the PHB specifically from Spells known (boldfaced emphasis added):
Ranger rules from the PHB specifically from Spells known (boldfaced emphasis added):
Wizard rules from the PHB specifically from Preparing and Casting Spells (boldfaced emphasis added):
In each of these cases, you must be of a level for which you had spells slots and the Ranger rules have the exact same wording as Sorcerer. The example of the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 in the Player's Handbook is Rules As Written and is there for clarification just in case this type of confusion occurred. See my post #61 for the explanation of the consequences of the example. Now, as barleyregal stated, I am sick of this thread. I will not be contributing to this thread any more and will simply unsubscribe if anyone wants to start yammering on about how the PHB example is wrong because it contradicts what is in the single class rules about the spell slots.
Nothing about that suggests you pretend you're a lower character level. So if you were to pretend you were just a single class then you'd be your character level in that class.... So if you're a 5 cleric/5 wizard, and pretended you were just a single class, you would pretend you're a 10 cleric or a 10 wizard.
I got quotes!
This time the example is in the text of the rules that you have to ignore to live in your invented rule system, Rav.
You're absolutely correct. The rules explicitly state you prepare spells as if you were a single class, but do not explicitly state what level you must pretend to be.
But you aren't thinking big enough! It also doesn't state that you have to pretend to be the level you already are! You could pretend to be a 20th level spellcaster and gain access to all of the ritual spells! Ritual spells can be cast without expending spell slots so you could be a wizard 1/cleric 1 and instantly gain access to the 6th level ritual spell forbiddance!
Aren't you missing a bit from that section that actually provides an example?
The example provided in the section immediately after the sentence you quoted explains how you use class levels (not character levels) to determine spells prepared and/or known
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This is what boggles my mind. The text of the PHB is quite explicit about how multiclassed spellcasting works, yet some people continue to deny the words right in front of their face.
There are different rules for the various classes, even in a similar feature, such as Spellcasting. It doesn't work the same way for each class. And example of how it works for one class doesn't, necessarily, mean it works the same way for another set of classes. I am fully aware of this nuance, and you... maybe aren't?
I just go by what is actually on the page. So if that's my invention? Well...
I got quotes!
Hi there. I was responding to someone who was entirely inventing a new "rule" and trying to tell us to follow it. What they suggested to do isn't in the book. At no time does the bok call for the players to "pretend they are single class" and so i responded to that false claim and demonstrated how it would be a poor rule even if we did follow it. Your response to that, seems... off the mark. Like maybe you didn't follow the content of what was being discussed.
I got quotes!
Sure. but none of them says that you can pretend that you've got more levels in the class than you currently do or are any more complex than a ranger/wizard MC. Don't be daft on purpose -- that is trolling.
And No, by the way, you don't go by what is actually on the page, you go by the part of what is actually on the page that gets the rule to say what you think it does and ignore the rest.
Well, some tell you that you choose spells based on the table, and others tell you to choose spells based on available spell slots.
So, there is, in fact, a very relevant difference between them. You're free to ignore anything in the books that you like to. Tends to not be considered RAW when you do, though.
I got quotes!
They also refer to the table which tells you how many slots you have. The multiclass rules still tell you to consider yourself a single classed member of that class, and go on to show you how you are supposed to ignore your other class levels. It isn't rocket science, it is one guy refusing to understand purposefully.
You now what's funny about this Wolf? You should agree with me on this one. Because the whole argument is you only interact with the relevant rules section when it is relevant. To see you arguing against that idea is just weird.
For a Wizard, for example, he specifically invokes the Preparing and Casting Spells section of his Spellcasting rules, for determining which spells he can cast as a Wizard.
But, a Sorcerer, has Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher section of his spellcasting rules. This section alone tells him which spells he can know as a sorcerer.
Why is this important? Because we only use the rules that are relevant when they are relevant.
So, lets compare the difference between these rules excerpts.
vs
As a single class sorcerer you can learn spells for any level of which you have spell slots. A wizard, on the other hand, can only learn spells for the levels listed on their table.
Per their individual respective rules text. That's RAW.
RAI? Naw, no one plays it like that.
RAW? Yes, that's what the rules says.
I got quotes!
I see I called it correctly. I wonder which would be chosen: to follow "only the pertinent rules" to allow sorcerers multiclass but still get the benefits of selecting whatever spells that they like despite the language of the spell slots being exactly the same as Ranger as shown in #63 or to follow "all the rules" to allow for casting S, no M spells as argued in https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/49286-spellcasting-focus-prevents-somatic-components?page=28.
But then it's hard to remain consistent when you say that you don't have to hold a spellcasting focus but must do so all in the same thread.
Do you want RAW or RAI? Don't conflate them. RAW is what the page says. RAI is what they are trying to tell us. The RAI is perfectly clear. No one is arguing against the RAI.
.........................
Multiclass rules has two sections for this spellcasting bit that are relevant here. Spells Known/Prepared and Spell Slots. Because these are 2 separate sections, they work independently of one another. Both of these sections tell us to supersede the related rules of our single class with these new muticlass rules. They both do this independently.
This section modifies the Spells Known or Spells Prepared functionality of other classes.
This section modifies the Spell Slots functionality of the other classes.
...............................
They operate individually.
Only the fist one tells us to act as a single class for one specific purpose: Which spells we know.
The second one tells us which spell slots are available to us, and does not have us ever act as a single class.
This multiclass Spell Slots rule is the specific rule that overrides the general class rules for Spell Slots.
The request to treat yourself as a single class is only in regard to spells known, and not in regard to spell slots.
And a single class sorcerer can learn spells for which they have spell slots.
..........................
Hypothetical: A god grants a L1 Sorcerer a 3rd level spell slot. Yes, we're in the weeds here, but follow along.
When the sorcerer levels up. Can he learn Fireball or not? He is level 2 now. Character level and class level... but has a 3rd level slot. Can he learn Fireball?
Yes. Yes he can.
A single class sorcerer can learn a spell for which he has spell slots.
RAI? Get outta here with that cheese!
RAW? Technically... yeah.
I got quotes!
OMFG! Not this thread too.
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I will say again what I said before here. The spellcasting section for a Sorcerer is identical - absolutely word-for-word identical - to the Ranger spellcasting description. That means the example in the PHB which involves a Wizard/Ranger would work the same as a Wizard/Sorcerer. That example clarifies the rule and allows only one interpretation.
The sorcerer rule is not written with multiclassing in mind -- With that said, the rule tells you how it works and even uses the words "in this class" in its example (which, again, you have to ignore if you want to invent a non-standard reading of the rule); the rule in one sentence refers you to your class table then in the next sentence continues on talking about information in that table without a second reference to that table.
Maybe we should all start writing our replies one sentence at a time, since that is all you ever seem to take from the rules, Rav.