Hi, I would like to ask y'all for some help in understanding the rules on multi-class spells known. I know how just about any/everyone rules on this topic, in practice, but for the life of me I simply cannot find or track down the rules that actually govern how any of this is supposed to work as written.
Let's talk about a hypothetical fourth level Sorcerer/Cleric 1/3.
He's got four 1st level slots, and three 2nd levels, according to the multi-class table. Let's say for simplicity sake he started as a sorcerer and has been advancing as a cleric. So he's got some 1st level known sorc spells, and can prepare some 2nd level cleric ones. Everything here makes sense and the rules work fine so far.
But then let's say he levels up as Sorc. Now he's Fifth level Sorc/Cleric 2/3. This is where I'm lost. The multiclass chart shows that he now gets two 3rd level spell slots. And his sorcerer class says: "The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
This, by raw, says he can simply choose to learn a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level sorcerer spell at this point. Since he has spell slots of those levels.
I get why that isn't okay, power and balance-wise and stuff. But... why does the books say he can do it if he can't? Where is the rules saying that isn't how it actually works?
The sorc also gets to re-select spells, and that says "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots." So this again seems to be clearly saying if you have the slots for it you can learn whatever level you wanna learn.
Anyway, any help tracking down where any of this is clarified would be greatly appreciated.
That says you determine what spells you can learn and prepare as if you were a single class character of that class level. In other words, can a level 2 sorcerer (no multiclass) learn level 3 spells?
Yes, it’s important to read all the rules around using tables. Further to what DxJxC said, the bit you’re looking for is:
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
That says you determine what spells you can learn and prepare as if you were a single class character of that class level. In other words, can a level 2 sorcerer (no multiclass) learn level 3 spells?
Yes.
Yes a level 2 sorcerer with no multiclass could in fact learn a 3rd level spell. If, of course, they had spell slots of that level. Because that is literally what their Spells Known feature says...
"The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
It says nothing about where or why you have those spell slots, just that you have them.
I didn't overlook that section... it simply points back to a rules section that doesn't parse the result in the ruling that everyone all agrees is how it should work. So I'm now doubly confused because if that's the only rules section that informs us how it works then RAW and RAI don't agree with each other.
You should remember that multiclassing is an optional rule. The sorcerer section of the rules tells you what happens when you're only a sorcerer.
If you want to multiclass, you have to follow the rules of the multiclass section, and there's no ambiguity here: you may gain additional spells slots, but you still only learn/prepare spells for each spellcasting class as a single class character.
There's no room for ambiguity or interpretation here, and RAW and RAI don't contradict each other: multiclassing helps you with getting spells slot, but you still get delayed spell learning.
It feels like you're fishing for a different response, but there's not. Your Sorcerer 4/Wizard 14 turning Sorcerer 5/Wizard 14 can only learn spells of level 3 or lower, even though they may cast those spells using high-level slots. That's working as intended.
Yes, it’s important to read all the rules around using tables. Further to what DxJxC said, the bit you’re looking for is:
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
That section details the case for if you do have spells slots and no spells of the same level available, and how that would work out in practice. It in no way contains any language that states that will always be the case while multiclassing. It just says "might". And then describes what that would look like.
The example even uses wizard/ranger and wizard for example specifically references the wizard chart for new spells learned upon level up. That's an important distinction from sorcerer which does not reference any chart and instead just says you must have slots of that level. Again, Ranger, like wizard, specifically references their class chart to determine their available spells. The difference in these language choices seems pretty obvious.
Going back to Wizard, their free spells are bound entirely by their wizard level... but their ability to find and learn new spells is not tied up in that same chart-referencing language. For leaning a found-spell, they are limited in a similar way to the sorcerer, by only having a spell slot of that level.
'Your capacity for spellcasting depends partly on your combined levels in all your spellcasting classes and partly on your individual levels in those classes.'
This is the key line:
'If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare'
And this can happen because:
'You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.'
So in your hypothetical Sorcerer/Cleric, you must identify which spells you know and can prepare individually for each class. Then refer to the multiclass table to see how many slots you have.
Critically, as a 5th level Multiclass Spellcaster, you do not have two 3rd level sorcerer slots. You have two 3rd level Multiclass Spellcaster slots - the spells you can learn are not determined by Multiclass Spellcaster slots, but by the individual classes that make up your Multiclass Spellcaster.
So I went and reread all the spellslinging classes Spellcasting sections to see which ones reference their class charts and limit spells know to that, and which classes only care that you have slots available instead.
Bard - Chart
Cleric - Slots
Druid - Slots
Sorcerer - Slots
Warlock - Chart
Wizard Free-Spells - Chart
Wizard Found-Spells - Slots
Why are these classes spellcasting sections worded in such a way as to be contingent on different requirements for which spells they can learn and prepare?
Compare Warlock vs Sorcerer wording...
The Spells Known column of the Warlock table shows when you learn more warlock spells of your choice of 1st level and higher. A spell you choose must be of a level no higher than what’s shown in the table’s Slot Level column for your level.
vs
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
This distinction in wording and listed requirements surely is intentional and has meaning right?
TLDR;
Some classes direct you to their class chart for which level your spells known are limited to and some classes do not.
Again, you're trying to parse a few words that sometimes appear and sometimes don't, who simply serve as reminder.
The Warlock is the only one to have definite different wording, and that's because they can't learn any spell of 6th level or higher, except from their Mystic Arcanum feature.
If you multiclass, you follow the multiclassing rules, and they tell you explicitely that "you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class", as it's been pointed out several times to you.
This is the rule answer. There's no ambiguity here. Now, you make take it up with your DM, and try to see if he'll allow something else, but this is the Rules section of the forum, and the rules are clear.
As ClementP states, you're overlooking the specific rules around multiclassing. The bottom line is, when determining whether you can cast, learn, or prepare a spell of a certain level, you have see if you'd be able to achieve that as a non-multiclassed character of the level of the spellcasting class that you have reached. If you are a 2Sorc/3Cleric, then for the purpose of determining whether you can learn, prepare, or cast sorcerer spells, you are for all intents and purposes, a level 2 sorcerer.
You're confused, because it says you have level 3 spell slots as a 2Sorc/3Cleric in the multiclassing rules. But there is a specific rule as to why you cannot use them for sorcerer spells, because if you seperated your classes you would only be a level 2 sorcerer - who cannot learn level 3 spells.
If you are a 2Sorc/3Cleric, then for the purpose of determining whether you can learn, prepare, or cast sorcerer spells, you are for all intents and purposes, a level 2 sorcerer.
You're confused, because it says you have level 3 spell slots as a 2Sorc/3Cleric in the multiclassing rules. But there is a specific rule as to why you cannot use them for sorcerer spells, because if you seperated your classes you would only be a level 2 sorcerer - who cannot learn level 3 spells.
But a 2nd level sorcerer with level 3 spells slots can learn level 3 spells. The sorcerer entry literally says they can learn any spell so-long-as-they-have-spell-slot-for-it. So any 2nd level sorcerer who has a 3rd level spell slot could learn a 3rd level spell when their class feature grants a new known spell.
Hypothetical: A feat grants a 3rd level spell slot.
Broken feat, sure. But if you read the sorcerer entry again, and parse it as a Human Sorcerer with this feat at 1st level. When he hits level 2, he can, because he has a 3rd level spell slot from his feat, choose a 3rd level known spell, because again... the sorcerer entry says that's all he needs to have... is a spell slot of that level.
So, this 2nd level sorc with this broken feat would totally have 3rd level spells known.
Because that's how his class feature is worded and says it works.
So if a single class level 2 sorc could, under any circumstance that grants him spell slots... choose spells known of those spell slots...
Why then can a multiclass sorcerer who has muticlass spell slots not do the same?
If you multiclass, you follow the multiclassing rules, and they tell you explicitely that "you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class", as it's been pointed out several times to you.
I get that... yall keep saying the same thing but it doesn't clarify the issue at all because a single class sorcerer could pick spells of any level for which they have spell slots...
So if you determine spells known as if you were single class, you learn the spells you want for any slots you have. And you have higher level slots.
If you are a 2Sorc/3Cleric, then for the purpose of determining whether you can learn, prepare, or cast sorcerer spells, you are for all intents and purposes, a level 2 sorcerer.
You're confused, because it says you have level 3 spell slots as a 2Sorc/3Cleric in the multiclassing rules. But there is a specific rule as to why you cannot use them for sorcerer spells, because if you seperated your classes you would only be a level 2 sorcerer - who cannot learn level 3 spells.
But a 2nd level sorcerer with level 3 spells slots can learn level 3 spells. The sorcerer entry literally says they can learn any spell so-long-as-they-have-spell-slot-for-it. So any 2nd level sorcerer who has a 3rd level spell slot could learn a 3rd level spell when their class feature grants a new known spell.
[SNIP]
Why then can a multiclass sorcerer who has muticlass spell slots not do the same?
Because there is a specific multiclassing rule that explains why.
You need to stop thinking your character has access to third level slots when it comes to choosing spells. He doesn't.
He DOES have access to third level slots for casting spells. But for choosing and preparing sorcerer spells, he must consider himself a 2nd level sorcerer, which doesn't have access to third level slots - so he cannot choose third level spells. And that's the part of the multiclassing rules you're missing.
It even talks about what happens in this very situation, where you might have slots available at a higher level that you can't use (which I referred to in my first post).
To your hypothetical: 'A feat grants a 3rd level spell slot.' Yes! A Sorcerer could fill this with a 3rd level spell, because of the reasons you mention.
But that's because he would not be using the multiclass rules to determine which spells he knows, which state: ''You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.'
That says you determine what spells you can learn and prepare as if you were a single class character of that class level. In other words, can a level 2 sorcerer (no multiclass) learn level 3 spells?
Yes.
Yes a level 2 sorcerer with no multiclass could in fact learn a 3rd level spell. If, of course, they had spell slots of that level. Because that is literally what their Spells Known feature says...
"The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
It says nothing about where or why you have those spell slots, just that you have them.
I didn't overlook that section... it simply points back to a rules section that doesn't parse the result in the ruling that everyone all agrees is how it should work. So I'm now doubly confused because if that's the only rules section that informs us how it works then RAW and RAI don't agree with each other.
But a level 2 sorcerer without multiclass slot does not have level 3 slots. So, no. Why would you even try to argue that a level 2 spellcaster can learn spells as if it was level 5? That is asinine, 2=/=5.
You want a wizard with 1 level in cleric and druid to be able to prepare any and every spell in the game, and that is just overpowered, and the game is better balanced than that.
If you are a 2Sorc/3Cleric, then for the purpose of determining whether you can learn, prepare, or cast sorcerer spells, you are for all intents and purposes, a level 2 sorcerer.
You're confused, because it says you have level 3 spell slots as a 2Sorc/3Cleric in the multiclassing rules. But there is a specific rule as to why you cannot use them for sorcerer spells, because if you seperated your classes you would only be a level 2 sorcerer - who cannot learn level 3 spells.
But a 2nd level sorcerer with level 3 spells slots can learn level 3 spells. The sorcerer entry literally says they can learn any spell so-long-as-they-have-spell-slot-for-it. So any 2nd level sorcerer who has a 3rd level spell slot could learn a 3rd level spell when their class feature grants a new known spell.
Hypothetical: A feat grants a 3rd level spell slot.
Broken feat, sure. But if you read the sorcerer entry again, and parse it as a Human Sorcerer with this feat at 1st level. When he hits level 2, he can, because he has a 3rd level spell slot from his feat, choose a 3rd level known spell, because again... the sorcerer entry says that's all he needs to have... is a spell slot of that level.
So, this 2nd level sorc with this broken feat would totally have 3rd level spells known.
Because that's how his class feature is worded and says it works.
So if a single class level 2 sorc could, under any circumstance that grants him spell slots... choose spells known of those spell slots...
Why then can a multiclass sorcerer who has muticlass spell slots not do the same?
The multiclass rules specifically state you ignore multiclass slots when learning and preparing spells.
If your hypothetical feat did exist, and it did not have the same clause, then yes, by RAW you could learn higher level spells. But we are refering to rules that do have a clause about for learning and preparing spells, so that is moot.
Your question has been answered. I'm sorry it isn't the answer you wanted. If you are still confused we can help clarify, but stop arguing against it.
If you are a 2Sorc/3Cleric, then for the purpose of determining whether you can learn, prepare, or cast sorcerer spells, you are for all intents and purposes, a level 2 sorcerer.
You're confused, because it says you have level 3 spell slots as a 2Sorc/3Cleric in the multiclassing rules. But there is a specific rule as to why you cannot use them for sorcerer spells, because if you seperated your classes you would only be a level 2 sorcerer - who cannot learn level 3 spells.
But a 2nd level sorcerer with level 3 spells slots can learn level 3 spells. The sorcerer entry literally says they can learn any spell so-long-as-they-have-spell-slot-for-it. So any 2nd level sorcerer who has a 3rd level spell slot could learn a 3rd level spell when their class feature grants a new known spell.
Hypothetical: A feat grants a 3rd level spell slot.
Broken feat, sure. But if you read the sorcerer entry again, and parse it as a Human Sorcerer with this feat at 1st level. When he hits level 2, he can, because he has a 3rd level spell slot from his feat, choose a 3rd level known spell, because again... the sorcerer entry says that's all he needs to have... is a spell slot of that level.
So, this 2nd level sorc with this broken feat would totally have 3rd level spells known.
Because that's how his class feature is worded and says it works.
So if a single class level 2 sorc could, under any circumstance that grants him spell slots... choose spells known of those spell slots...
Why then can a multiclass sorcerer who has muticlass spell slots not do the same?
You need to remember that specific beats general when it comes to D&D. A feat is a more specific case than multiclass rules, and could overrule more general application of the multiclass rules. Barring such a specific rule, multiclass rules tell you that you treat each class as it's own entity when choosing and preparing spells. As a sorcerer 2, you will never have access to 3rd level spell slots barring some broken feat or house rule (more specific to that particular game). Anything that you can say that would give a sorcerer 2 access to third level spell slots would be a specific rule. Multiclass rules specifically tell you that you treat each as if you are only that class when selecting your spells. Therefore, anything that you could do as a single classed caster of that level, you could do as a multiclassed character with the specific exceptions set out in other sections of the multiclass rules or other specific rules such as racial traits, feats, or houserules.
TLDR. Specific does beat general, but barring a more specific rule, you go with the general rule. You're a sorcerer 2 and therefore will never have 3rd level slots from a source that let's you choose 3rd level spells until you gain an appropriate number of sorcerer levels to gain third level spell slots if you were only a sorcerer. Alternatively, another, more specific rule may somehow also grant you that ability. The more specific that you have to get to make your point, the more specific the rule is that governs it and those edge cases can apply.
Thus, from least specific to more specific:
Sorcerer --> sorcerer who has multiclassed --> feats, racial traits, sub class traits, magical items, homebrew rules and items not already covered, other specific rules not already covered, including game rules governing specific adventures and/or areas.
You need to remember that specific beats general when it comes to D&D. A feat is a more specific case than multiclass rules, and could overrule more general application of the multiclass rules. Barring such a specific rule, multiclass rules tell you that you treat each class as it's own entity when choosing and preparing spells. As a sorcerer 2, you will never have access to 3rd level spell slots barring some broken feat or house rule (more specific to that particular game). Anything that you can say that would give a sorcerer 2 access to third level spell slots would be a specific rule. Multiclass rules specifically tell you that you treat each as if you are only that class when selecting your spells. Therefore, anything that you could do as a single classed caster of that level, you could do as a multiclassed character with the specific exceptions set out in other sections of the multiclass rules or other specific rules such as racial traits, feats, or houserules.
Okay, the Multiclass rules say to treat yourself as a 2nd level Sorcerer for Preparing and Known Spells rules. True.
Sorcerer Preparing and Known Spells Rules states you know a number of them based on your sorc level, and I totally get that. It says you can know spells for which you have spell slots.
Multiclass rules ALSO says:
Your capacity for spellcasting depends partly on your combined levels in all your spellcasting classes and partly on your individual levels in those classes. Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, and half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
So the Multiclass Rules tell us that we use the Multiclass table for determining spell slots available, and the sorcerer rules say we use available spell slots to determine the spell level we can learn.
So again: Single Class Sorcerer Rules for determining Spells Known and Prepared...
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
I didn't start this thread to argue that this is how it is supposed to work. I wanted help finding the rules that shows why it doesn't work this way. Clearly though, since other respondents here are a bit hostile about this issue I'm pretty much done caring. I really just wanted to understand where it was written how it is supposed to work how everyone actually plays it. I'm convinced now that it isn't written anywhere and people just make it up because it is better balanced that way and universal across all classes. Technically speaking though, it isn't RAW.
The bit yall keep saying that has no text support is that you use only your sorcerer level to determine spell slots. I'm not sure where you are getting that from but nothing says to do that. Anywhere. At all. That is an invention, whole cloth.
Multiclass says you have higher level slots. Multiclass Known says single class rules. Single Class Sorc known rules says available slots. And you are not using single class Sorc spellslot rules because they have been superseded entirely and nothing says to reference them again at any point.
Maybe yall are missing the fact that Spells Known and Spell Slots are two different rules? Is that it? So when it says you determine spells known as a single class you get confused and think that means you also determine spell slots like you were single class? But nothing says to do that.... not in the Sorcerer class anyway. Other classes do reference the class specific slot chart in their known/prepared section. Sorc doesn't.
Feels like being the only member of the party that succeeded the wisdom save against a mass illusion spell and yall trying to convince me I'm the one seeing things.
The rules about spells known in case of multiclass:
Your capacity for spellcasting depends partly on your combined levels in all your spellcasting classes and partly on your individual levels in those classes. Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below. If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
Let's parse them:
If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.
So as soon as you multiclass, you have to abide by all the rules in this section.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
So if you have more than one class, they each determine which spells you mean know or be able to prepare, as if you weren't multi-classed. Which means that if you're a bard 5/sorcerer 3, you know the spells a bard 5 who didn't multiclass might know, and you know the spells a sorcerer 3 who didn't multiclass might know. This interpretation is supported by the example that follows.
If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
The example given says that we only know 3 ranger spells, and that must all be of first level. This is indeed what would a ranger 3 who didn't multiclass would know.
The example also says that we have a spellbook with 10 wizard spells: 6 spells gained at wizard level 1, then 2 more at wizard level 2, then 2 more at wizard level 3. Because we add these spells to our spellbook as though we didn't multiclass, the only point where we're able to add 2nd level spells is when we reach Wizard level 3.
The most important sentence here is this one:
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
This sentence means that, when you're determining what spells you might know or be able to prepare, you do not consider the extra spells slots given by the multiclassing rules. Yes, these spells slots will be available during play, but they do not count as available when it comes to your spell selection.
The rule is repeated below, with have another example, which dismisses any remaining doubt we may have, which reads:
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
Again, let's parse this phrase by phrase.
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare.
This is indeed something that could happen, and is what we're interested in. It does not always happen though, hence the word "might". A sorcerer 5/bard 1 would have no spells slots of level higher than spells he knows (unless the sorcerer deliberately refused to learn a 3rd level spell when he hit sorcerer level 5). But a Sorcerer 6/Bard 1 would get a 4th level slot, with no 4th level spell know, since we followed the rule above.
If we followed your rules, this case could only happen if someone deliberately chose to not learn a spell as soon as their class reach a level where they can cast it (such as a single-class sorcerer reaching level 5 and learning no 3rd level spell). If the rule was about this case, it would have no business being in the "multiclass" section, so that interpretation doesn't make sense.
You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
The rules goes on to say that such slots can only be used to cast lower-level spells, and in that case, we get the heightened effect, working as normal.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
The example given repeats the first example, and explicitly say that a ranger 4/wizard 3 do not know any 3rd level spells, and they also do not know any 2nd-level spells from the ranger class. But the extra spell slots given by multiclassing are still available to both these classes, to heighten the spells they do know.
Again, the example here says that the ranger 4/wizard 3 cannot know any 3rd level spell. Because the spells know were determined as per the first rule, as if they were single-classed character:
So the Multiclass Rules tell us that we use the Multiclass table for determining spell slots available, and the sorcerer rules say we use available spell slots to determine the spell level we can learn.
You're ignoring the fact that the multiclass rules tells you to consider spells know "as if you were a single-classed member of that class".
So the Multiclass Rules tell us that we use the Multiclass table for determining spell slots available, and the sorcerer rules say we use available spell slots to determine the spell level we can learn.
So again: Single Class Sorcerer Rules for determining Spells Known and Prepared...
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
But since you are not considered as a multi-class character, but as a single-class character, when determining spells known, you do not use the multiclass table to determine spells slots available. A sorcerer 5/Bard 8 gaining a sorcerer level and turning Sorcerer 6/Bard 8 would only consider to have available 4 slot of 1st level, 3 slots of 2nd level, and 3 slots of 3rd level. Because the rules about spells know tell us that we're considered a single-classed sorcerer 5, and to forget our bard levels.
I didn't start this thread to argue that this is how it is supposed to work. I wanted help finding the rules that shows why it doesn't work this way. Clearly though, since other respondents here are a bit hostile about this issue I'm pretty much done caring. I really just wanted to understand where it was written how it is supposed to work how everyone actually plays it. I'm convinced now that it isn't written anywhere and people just make it up because it is better balanced that way and universal across all classes. Technically speaking though, it isn't RAW.
Feel free to try and make sense of either of the example given in the multiclass section about spellcasting with your interpretation. It's not possible. This is definitely RAW, you're trying to use spell slots made available by multiclassing when you're explicitely told that you should be considered not-multiclassed (aka single-classed).
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A SINGLE CLASS sorcerer does NOT have MULTICLASS spell slots.
This is isn't difficult. One is not multiple.
I don't know how the rules could be more clear without being redundant. They even gave an example.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A SINGLE CLASS sorcerer does NOT have MULTICLASS spell slots.
This is isn't difficult. One is not multiple.
I don't know how the rules could be more clear without being redundant. They even gave an example.
A multiclass character does NOT have single class character spells slots.
This is isn't difficult. I don't know how the rules could be more clear without being redundant.
If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.
So as soon as you multiclass, you have to abide by all the rules in this section.
Yes. Including the multiclass rule about not following the single class rule for spell slots.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
So if you have more than one class, they each determine which spells you mean know or be able to prepare, as if you weren't multi-classed. Which means that if you're a bard 5/sorcerer 3, you know the spells a bard 5 who didn't multiclass might know, and you know the spells a sorcerer 3 who didn't multiclass might know. This interpretation is supported by the example that follows.
That is an interpretation and does not directly follow, strictly speaking, from the wording of the rules. You've made a leap in logic there. An assumption, if you will, is being made in your interpretation, an assumption that "as if you were a single-classed member of that class" is always the same thing as "you know the spells a sorcerer who didn't multiclass might know". But, that is basically just leading the question... Like saying "I know it works this way because I made the assumption that it works this way".
If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
The example given says that we only know 3 ranger spells, and that must all be of first level. This is indeed what would a ranger 3 who didn't multiclass would know.
The example also says that we have a spellbook with 10 wizard spells: 6 spells gained at wizard level 1, then 2 more at wizard level 2, then 2 more at wizard level 3. Because we add these spells to our spellbook as though we didn't multiclass, the only point where we're able to add 2nd level spells is when we reach Wizard level 3.
Ranger and Wizard aren't Sorcerers and their Spellcasting rules are different. How something works for one is not how it works for another... unless the rules actually say so.
The example, by the by, is entirely wrong about most wizard spellbooks. They're very, very likely have more spells in it than it says they would, from finding and adding it. So trying to draw any conclusion from the example provided is more than a little questionable.
The most important sentence here is this one:
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
This sentence means that, when you're determining what spells you might know or be able to prepare, you do not consider the extra spells slots given by the multiclassing rules. Yes, these spells slots will be available during play, but they do not count as available when it comes to your spell selection.
You don't have "extra spell slots" from multiclassing rules. There is no such thing as that. Multiclass spell slots are the ONLY spell slots you have, because by the multiclassing rules you DO NOT follow the single class spell slots rules any longer.
What that sentence means is that the only rules section you use for determine your Known and Prepared spells are those from your class entry, and you parse the rules as if you were a single class character of the level in that class. It does not mean you make up phantom spell slot levels out of nowhere that you don't actually have. That's the part yall are trying to say you're supposed to do.
But it doesn't say to do that.
What it says is to follow the single class rules as if you were whatever level in that class... okay, well what do the single class Sorcerer rules say? They say you learn new spells of whatever slot level you have available. You have. You don't have the single class slots. You do have the multiclass slots.
The rule is repeated below, with have another example, which dismisses any remaining doubt we may have, which reads:
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
Again, let's parse this phrase by phrase.
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare.
This is indeed something that could happen, and is what we're interested in. It does not always happen though, hence the word "might". A sorcerer 5/bard 1 would have no spells slots of level higher than spells he knows (unless the sorcerer deliberately refused to learn a 3rd level spell when he hit sorcerer level 5). But a Sorcerer 6/Bard 1 would get a 4th level slot, with no 4th level spell know, since we followed the rule above.
If we followed your rules, this case could only happen if someone deliberately chose to not learn a spell as soon as their class reach a level where they can cast it (such as a single-class sorcerer reaching level 5 and learning no 3rd level spell). If the rule was about this case, it would have no business being in the "multiclass" section, so that interpretation doesn't make sense.
Sorcerer is not the only class. This section applies to all classes. Just because it wouldn't always or ever apply to just one of those classes doesn't mean it wouldn't be applicable in other cases.
You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
The rules goes on to say that such slots can only be used to cast lower-level spells, and in that case, we get the heightened effect, working as normal.
If you did have slots higher than spells you knew, then yes, you would be able to use them for only lower level spells. That's pretty straightforward.... and entirely offtopic. A single class Sorcerer could pick only 1st level spells for his entire career and at higher levels the same thing applies to him. He could only use those slots with his lower level spells because he obviously doesn't have any higher level ones.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
The example given repeats the first example, and explicitly say that a ranger 4/wizard 3 do not know any 3rd level spells, and they also do not know any 2nd-level spells from the ranger class. But the extra spell slots given by multiclassing are still available to both these classes, to heighten the spells they do know.
Again, the example here says that the ranger 4/wizard 3 cannot know any 3rd level spell. Because the spells know were determined as per the first rule, as if they were single-classed character:
So the Multiclass Rules tell us that we use the Multiclass table for determining spell slots available, and the sorcerer rules say we use available spell slots to determine the spell level we can learn.
You're ignoring the fact that the multiclass rules tells you to consider spells know "as if you were a single-classed member of that class".
No I'm not. I'm just actually reading what those single class sorc rules actually say. "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
So the Multiclass Rules tell us that we use the Multiclass table for determining spell slots available, and the sorcerer rules say we use available spell slots to determine the spell level we can learn.
So again: Single Class Sorcerer Rules for determining Spells Known and Prepared...
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
But since you are not considered as a multi-class character, but as a single-class character, when determining spells known, you do not use the multiclass table to determine spells slots available. A sorcerer 5/Bard 8 gaining a sorcerer level and turning Sorcerer 6/Bard 8 would only consider to have available 4 slot of 1st level, 3 slots of 2nd level, and 3 slots of 3rd level. Because the rules about spells know tell us that we're considered a single-classed sorcerer 5, and to forget our bard levels.
Those spell slots are your characters ONLY spell slots. Once you multiclass you DO NOT follow single class rules for spell slots any longer. The multiclass section states this very clearly.
The rules about multiclass say to determine spells known based on single class, and spell slots based on multiclass.
But in the case of the sorcerer, the single class sorcerer then redirects us back to determining spell level available based entirely on slots.
So multiclass slots are the only slots you even have. You don't have any other ones.
Multiclass says you have higher level slots. Multiclass Known says single class rules.
Multiclass doesn't say "single class rules", multiclass says "forget your other levels when considering spell-known".
Okay but the spell level you can learn from sorcerer spells is NOT based on sorcerer level. It is based only and exclusively on something else. Again, repeat after me, sorcerer spells level known is NOT based on sorcerer level. Not once. Not ever.
It is instead based exclusively on...
Spell Slots Available.
And the only spell slots you have are from the multiclass table.
Because the multiclass rules tell you that is how it works.
I didn't start this thread to argue that this is how it is supposed to work. I wanted help finding the rules that shows why it doesn't work this way. Clearly though, since other respondents here are a bit hostile about this issue I'm pretty much done caring. I really just wanted to understand where it was written how it is supposed to work how everyone actually plays it. I'm convinced now that it isn't written anywhere and people just make it up because it is better balanced that way and universal across all classes. Technically speaking though, it isn't RAW.
Feel free to try and make sense of either of the example given in the multiclass section about spellcasting with your interpretation. It's not possible. This is definitely RAW, you're trying to use spell slots made available by multiclassing when you're explicitely told that you should be considered not-multiclassed (aka single-classed).
No. The examples make perfect sense. Don't strawman me.
Anyway... the part I bolded is the part that no one has actually shown the book says to do. I understand that is what you are assuming it to want you to do. It just doesn't actually say to do that anywhere.
I thought I had glossed passed it at first but now it is very clear it just isn't in there and yall drinking the koolaid.
Hi, I would like to ask y'all for some help in understanding the rules on multi-class spells known. I know how just about any/everyone rules on this topic, in practice, but for the life of me I simply cannot find or track down the rules that actually govern how any of this is supposed to work as written.
Let's talk about a hypothetical fourth level Sorcerer/Cleric 1/3.
He's got four 1st level slots, and three 2nd levels, according to the multi-class table. Let's say for simplicity sake he started as a sorcerer and has been advancing as a cleric. So he's got some 1st level known sorc spells, and can prepare some 2nd level cleric ones. Everything here makes sense and the rules work fine so far.
But then let's say he levels up as Sorc. Now he's Fifth level Sorc/Cleric 2/3. This is where I'm lost. The multiclass chart shows that he now gets two 3rd level spell slots. And his sorcerer class says: "The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
This, by raw, says he can simply choose to learn a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level sorcerer spell at this point. Since he has spell slots of those levels.
I get why that isn't okay, power and balance-wise and stuff. But... why does the books say he can do it if he can't? Where is the rules saying that isn't how it actually works?
The sorc also gets to re-select spells, and that says "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots." So this again seems to be clearly saying if you have the slots for it you can learn whatever level you wanna learn.
Anyway, any help tracking down where any of this is clarified would be greatly appreciated.
I got quotes!
You and everybody else that asks this question have overlooked the "spells known and prepared" section of the multiclass rules (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/customization-options#Spellcasting).
That says you determine what spells you can learn and prepare as if you were a single class character of that class level. In other words, can a level 2 sorcerer (no multiclass) learn level 3 spells?
Yes, it’s important to read all the rules around using tables. Further to what DxJxC said, the bit you’re looking for is:
Yes.
Yes a level 2 sorcerer with no multiclass could in fact learn a 3rd level spell. If, of course, they had spell slots of that level. Because that is literally what their Spells Known feature says...
"The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
It says nothing about where or why you have those spell slots, just that you have them.
I didn't overlook that section... it simply points back to a rules section that doesn't parse the result in the ruling that everyone all agrees is how it should work. So I'm now doubly confused because if that's the only rules section that informs us how it works then RAW and RAI don't agree with each other.
I got quotes!
You should remember that multiclassing is an optional rule. The sorcerer section of the rules tells you what happens when you're only a sorcerer.
If you want to multiclass, you have to follow the rules of the multiclass section, and there's no ambiguity here: you may gain additional spells slots, but you still only learn/prepare spells for each spellcasting class as a single class character.
There's no room for ambiguity or interpretation here, and RAW and RAI don't contradict each other: multiclassing helps you with getting spells slot, but you still get delayed spell learning.
It feels like you're fishing for a different response, but there's not. Your Sorcerer 4/Wizard 14 turning Sorcerer 5/Wizard 14 can only learn spells of level 3 or lower, even though they may cast those spells using high-level slots. That's working as intended.
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That section details the case for if you do have spells slots and no spells of the same level available, and how that would work out in practice. It in no way contains any language that states that will always be the case while multiclassing. It just says "might". And then describes what that would look like.
The example even uses wizard/ranger and wizard for example specifically references the wizard chart for new spells learned upon level up. That's an important distinction from sorcerer which does not reference any chart and instead just says you must have slots of that level. Again, Ranger, like wizard, specifically references their class chart to determine their available spells. The difference in these language choices seems pretty obvious.
Going back to Wizard, their free spells are bound entirely by their wizard level... but their ability to find and learn new spells is not tied up in that same chart-referencing language. For leaning a found-spell, they are limited in a similar way to the sorcerer, by only having a spell slot of that level.
I got quotes!
Firstly:
This is the key line:
And this can happen because:
So in your hypothetical Sorcerer/Cleric, you must identify which spells you know and can prepare individually for each class. Then refer to the multiclass table to see how many slots you have.
Critically, as a 5th level Multiclass Spellcaster, you do not have two 3rd level sorcerer slots. You have two 3rd level Multiclass Spellcaster slots - the spells you can learn are not determined by Multiclass Spellcaster slots, but by the individual classes that make up your Multiclass Spellcaster.
So I went and reread all the spellslinging classes Spellcasting sections to see which ones reference their class charts and limit spells know to that, and which classes only care that you have slots available instead.
Bard - Chart
Cleric - Slots
Druid - Slots
Sorcerer - Slots
Warlock - Chart
Wizard Free-Spells - Chart
Wizard Found-Spells - Slots
Why are these classes spellcasting sections worded in such a way as to be contingent on different requirements for which spells they can learn and prepare?
Compare Warlock vs Sorcerer wording...
This distinction in wording and listed requirements surely is intentional and has meaning right?
TLDR;
Some classes direct you to their class chart for which level your spells known are limited to and some classes do not.
I got quotes!
Again, you're trying to parse a few words that sometimes appear and sometimes don't, who simply serve as reminder.
The Warlock is the only one to have definite different wording, and that's because they can't learn any spell of 6th level or higher, except from their Mystic Arcanum feature.
If you multiclass, you follow the multiclassing rules, and they tell you explicitely that "you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class", as it's been pointed out several times to you.
This is the rule answer. There's no ambiguity here. Now, you make take it up with your DM, and try to see if he'll allow something else, but this is the Rules section of the forum, and the rules are clear.
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As ClementP states, you're overlooking the specific rules around multiclassing. The bottom line is, when determining whether you can cast, learn, or prepare a spell of a certain level, you have see if you'd be able to achieve that as a non-multiclassed character of the level of the spellcasting class that you have reached. If you are a 2Sorc/3Cleric, then for the purpose of determining whether you can learn, prepare, or cast sorcerer spells, you are for all intents and purposes, a level 2 sorcerer.
You're confused, because it says you have level 3 spell slots as a 2Sorc/3Cleric in the multiclassing rules. But there is a specific rule as to why you cannot use them for sorcerer spells, because if you seperated your classes you would only be a level 2 sorcerer - who cannot learn level 3 spells.
That's all there really is to it.
But a 2nd level sorcerer with level 3 spells slots can learn level 3 spells. The sorcerer entry literally says they can learn any spell so-long-as-they-have-spell-slot-for-it. So any 2nd level sorcerer who has a 3rd level spell slot could learn a 3rd level spell when their class feature grants a new known spell.
Hypothetical: A feat grants a 3rd level spell slot.
Broken feat, sure. But if you read the sorcerer entry again, and parse it as a Human Sorcerer with this feat at 1st level. When he hits level 2, he can, because he has a 3rd level spell slot from his feat, choose a 3rd level known spell, because again... the sorcerer entry says that's all he needs to have... is a spell slot of that level.
So, this 2nd level sorc with this broken feat would totally have 3rd level spells known.
Because that's how his class feature is worded and says it works.
So if a single class level 2 sorc could, under any circumstance that grants him spell slots... choose spells known of those spell slots...
Why then can a multiclass sorcerer who has muticlass spell slots not do the same?
I got quotes!
I get that... yall keep saying the same thing but it doesn't clarify the issue at all because a single class sorcerer could pick spells of any level for which they have spell slots...
So if you determine spells known as if you were single class, you learn the spells you want for any slots you have. And you have higher level slots.
I got quotes!
Because there is a specific multiclassing rule that explains why.
You need to stop thinking your character has access to third level slots when it comes to choosing spells. He doesn't.
He DOES have access to third level slots for casting spells. But for choosing and preparing sorcerer spells, he must consider himself a 2nd level sorcerer, which doesn't have access to third level slots - so he cannot choose third level spells. And that's the part of the multiclassing rules you're missing.
It even talks about what happens in this very situation, where you might have slots available at a higher level that you can't use (which I referred to in my first post).
To your hypothetical: 'A feat grants a 3rd level spell slot.' Yes! A Sorcerer could fill this with a 3rd level spell, because of the reasons you mention.
But that's because he would not be using the multiclass rules to determine which spells he knows, which state: ''You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.'
But a level 2 sorcerer without multiclass slot does not have level 3 slots. So, no. Why would you even try to argue that a level 2 spellcaster can learn spells as if it was level 5? That is asinine, 2=/=5.
You want a wizard with 1 level in cleric and druid to be able to prepare any and every spell in the game, and that is just overpowered, and the game is better balanced than that.
The multiclass rules specifically state you ignore multiclass slots when learning and preparing spells.
If your hypothetical feat did exist, and it did not have the same clause, then yes, by RAW you could learn higher level spells. But we are refering to rules that do have a clause about for learning and preparing spells, so that is moot.
Your question has been answered. I'm sorry it isn't the answer you wanted. If you are still confused we can help clarify, but stop arguing against it.
You need to remember that specific beats general when it comes to D&D. A feat is a more specific case than multiclass rules, and could overrule more general application of the multiclass rules. Barring such a specific rule, multiclass rules tell you that you treat each class as it's own entity when choosing and preparing spells. As a sorcerer 2, you will never have access to 3rd level spell slots barring some broken feat or house rule (more specific to that particular game). Anything that you can say that would give a sorcerer 2 access to third level spell slots would be a specific rule. Multiclass rules specifically tell you that you treat each as if you are only that class when selecting your spells. Therefore, anything that you could do as a single classed caster of that level, you could do as a multiclassed character with the specific exceptions set out in other sections of the multiclass rules or other specific rules such as racial traits, feats, or houserules.
TLDR. Specific does beat general, but barring a more specific rule, you go with the general rule. You're a sorcerer 2 and therefore will never have 3rd level slots from a source that let's you choose 3rd level spells until you gain an appropriate number of sorcerer levels to gain third level spell slots if you were only a sorcerer. Alternatively, another, more specific rule may somehow also grant you that ability. The more specific that you have to get to make your point, the more specific the rule is that governs it and those edge cases can apply.
Thus, from least specific to more specific:
Sorcerer --> sorcerer who has multiclassed --> feats, racial traits, sub class traits, magical items, homebrew rules and items not already covered, other specific rules not already covered, including game rules governing specific adventures and/or areas.
Okay, the Multiclass rules say to treat yourself as a 2nd level Sorcerer for Preparing and Known Spells rules. True.
Sorcerer Preparing and Known Spells Rules states you know a number of them based on your sorc level, and I totally get that. It says you can know spells for which you have spell slots.
Multiclass rules ALSO says:
So the Multiclass Rules tell us that we use the Multiclass table for determining spell slots available, and the sorcerer rules say we use available spell slots to determine the spell level we can learn.
So again: Single Class Sorcerer Rules for determining Spells Known and Prepared...
I didn't start this thread to argue that this is how it is supposed to work. I wanted help finding the rules that shows why it doesn't work this way. Clearly though, since other respondents here are a bit hostile about this issue I'm pretty much done caring. I really just wanted to understand where it was written how it is supposed to work how everyone actually plays it. I'm convinced now that it isn't written anywhere and people just make it up because it is better balanced that way and universal across all classes. Technically speaking though, it isn't RAW.
The bit yall keep saying that has no text support is that you use only your sorcerer level to determine spell slots. I'm not sure where you are getting that from but nothing says to do that. Anywhere. At all. That is an invention, whole cloth.
Multiclass says you have higher level slots. Multiclass Known says single class rules. Single Class Sorc known rules says available slots. And you are not using single class Sorc spellslot rules because they have been superseded entirely and nothing says to reference them again at any point.
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Maybe yall are missing the fact that Spells Known and Spell Slots are two different rules? Is that it? So when it says you determine spells known as a single class you get confused and think that means you also determine spell slots like you were single class? But nothing says to do that.... not in the Sorcerer class anyway. Other classes do reference the class specific slot chart in their known/prepared section. Sorc doesn't.
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Feels like being the only member of the party that succeeded the wisdom save against a mass illusion spell and yall trying to convince me I'm the one seeing things.
I got quotes!
Ok, I'm giving this one last try.
The rules about spells known in case of multiclass:
Let's parse them:
So as soon as you multiclass, you have to abide by all the rules in this section.
So if you have more than one class, they each determine which spells you mean know or be able to prepare, as if you weren't multi-classed. Which means that if you're a bard 5/sorcerer 3, you know the spells a bard 5 who didn't multiclass might know, and you know the spells a sorcerer 3 who didn't multiclass might know. This interpretation is supported by the example that follows.
The example given says that we only know 3 ranger spells, and that must all be of first level. This is indeed what would a ranger 3 who didn't multiclass would know.
The example also says that we have a spellbook with 10 wizard spells: 6 spells gained at wizard level 1, then 2 more at wizard level 2, then 2 more at wizard level 3. Because we add these spells to our spellbook as though we didn't multiclass, the only point where we're able to add 2nd level spells is when we reach Wizard level 3.
The most important sentence here is this one:
This sentence means that, when you're determining what spells you might know or be able to prepare, you do not consider the extra spells slots given by the multiclassing rules. Yes, these spells slots will be available during play, but they do not count as available when it comes to your spell selection.
The rule is repeated below, with have another example, which dismisses any remaining doubt we may have, which reads:
Again, let's parse this phrase by phrase.
This is indeed something that could happen, and is what we're interested in. It does not always happen though, hence the word "might". A sorcerer 5/bard 1 would have no spells slots of level higher than spells he knows (unless the sorcerer deliberately refused to learn a 3rd level spell when he hit sorcerer level 5). But a Sorcerer 6/Bard 1 would get a 4th level slot, with no 4th level spell know, since we followed the rule above.
If we followed your rules, this case could only happen if someone deliberately chose to not learn a spell as soon as their class reach a level where they can cast it (such as a single-class sorcerer reaching level 5 and learning no 3rd level spell). If the rule was about this case, it would have no business being in the "multiclass" section, so that interpretation doesn't make sense.
The rules goes on to say that such slots can only be used to cast lower-level spells, and in that case, we get the heightened effect, working as normal.
The example given repeats the first example, and explicitly say that a ranger 4/wizard 3 do not know any 3rd level spells, and they also do not know any 2nd-level spells from the ranger class. But the extra spell slots given by multiclassing are still available to both these classes, to heighten the spells they do know.
Again, the example here says that the ranger 4/wizard 3 cannot know any 3rd level spell. Because the spells know were determined as per the first rule, as if they were single-classed character:
Ranger 4 only knows 1st-level spell.
Wizard 3 only knows spells up to 2nd level.
You're ignoring the fact that the multiclass rules tells you to consider spells know "as if you were a single-classed member of that class".
But since you are not considered as a multi-class character, but as a single-class character, when determining spells known, you do not use the multiclass table to determine spells slots available. A sorcerer 5/Bard 8 gaining a sorcerer level and turning Sorcerer 6/Bard 8 would only consider to have available 4 slot of 1st level, 3 slots of 2nd level, and 3 slots of 3rd level. Because the rules about spells know tell us that we're considered a single-classed sorcerer 5, and to forget our bard levels.
Multiclass doesn't say "single class rules", multiclass says "forget your other levels when considering spell-known".
Feel free to try and make sense of either of the example given in the multiclass section about spellcasting with your interpretation. It's not possible. This is definitely RAW, you're trying to use spell slots made available by multiclassing when you're explicitely told that you should be considered not-multiclassed (aka single-classed).
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A SINGLE CLASS sorcerer does NOT have MULTICLASS spell slots.
This is isn't difficult. One is not multiple.
I don't know how the rules could be more clear without being redundant. They even gave an example.
A multiclass character does NOT have single class character spells slots.
This is isn't difficult. I don't know how the rules could be more clear without being redundant.
I got quotes!
Yes. Including the multiclass rule about not following the single class rule for spell slots.
That is an interpretation and does not directly follow, strictly speaking, from the wording of the rules. You've made a leap in logic there. An assumption, if you will, is being made in your interpretation, an assumption that "as if you were a single-classed member of that class" is always the same thing as "you know the spells a sorcerer who didn't multiclass might know". But, that is basically just leading the question... Like saying "I know it works this way because I made the assumption that it works this way".
Ranger and Wizard aren't Sorcerers and their Spellcasting rules are different. How something works for one is not how it works for another... unless the rules actually say so.
The example, by the by, is entirely wrong about most wizard spellbooks. They're very, very likely have more spells in it than it says they would, from finding and adding it. So trying to draw any conclusion from the example provided is more than a little questionable.
You don't have "extra spell slots" from multiclassing rules. There is no such thing as that. Multiclass spell slots are the ONLY spell slots you have, because by the multiclassing rules you DO NOT follow the single class spell slots rules any longer.
What that sentence means is that the only rules section you use for determine your Known and Prepared spells are those from your class entry, and you parse the rules as if you were a single class character of the level in that class. It does not mean you make up phantom spell slot levels out of nowhere that you don't actually have. That's the part yall are trying to say you're supposed to do.
But it doesn't say to do that.
What it says is to follow the single class rules as if you were whatever level in that class... okay, well what do the single class Sorcerer rules say? They say you learn new spells of whatever slot level you have available. You have. You don't have the single class slots. You do have the multiclass slots.
Sorcerer is not the only class. This section applies to all classes. Just because it wouldn't always or ever apply to just one of those classes doesn't mean it wouldn't be applicable in other cases.
If you did have slots higher than spells you knew, then yes, you would be able to use them for only lower level spells. That's pretty straightforward.... and entirely offtopic. A single class Sorcerer could pick only 1st level spells for his entire career and at higher levels the same thing applies to him. He could only use those slots with his lower level spells because he obviously doesn't have any higher level ones.
No I'm not. I'm just actually reading what those single class sorc rules actually say. "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Those spell slots are your characters ONLY spell slots. Once you multiclass you DO NOT follow single class rules for spell slots any longer. The multiclass section states this very clearly.
The rules about multiclass say to determine spells known based on single class, and spell slots based on multiclass.
But in the case of the sorcerer, the single class sorcerer then redirects us back to determining spell level available based entirely on slots.
So multiclass slots are the only slots you even have. You don't have any other ones.
Okay but the spell level you can learn from sorcerer spells is NOT based on sorcerer level. It is based only and exclusively on something else. Again, repeat after me, sorcerer spells level known is NOT based on sorcerer level. Not once. Not ever.
It is instead based exclusively on...
Spell Slots Available.
And the only spell slots you have are from the multiclass table.
Because the multiclass rules tell you that is how it works.
No. The examples make perfect sense. Don't strawman me.
Anyway... the part I bolded is the part that no one has actually shown the book says to do. I understand that is what you are assuming it to want you to do. It just doesn't actually say to do that anywhere.
I thought I had glossed passed it at first but now it is very clear it just isn't in there and yall drinking the koolaid.
I got quotes!