I would argue that "incapacitated" and "unable to move" are two different things.
Those are 2 different things. That is why stunned specifies both if them.
Yes, I meant stunned, apologies. I think we're using the same wording to mean different things here, though ? I understand the "can't move" from stunned differently as the "can't move" from Paralyzed. A paralyzed character literally can't move, they're stuck in place, like a statue. A stunned character can't take a move action to move up to their speed, but they're probably "oscillating" on the spot. They can't really move correctly, but they're still moving, and I can see a character with Evasion still being able to jump out of the way out of instinct from an easily avoidable spell.
A stunned character also isn't Unconscious, they can still react to things, albeit not in any meaningful way normally.
But I'm not talking game rules here, it's more about my interpretation of the meaning of the terms in english, and how i represent them in my game.
Would you not allow Evasion to work for a stunned character ? Or would you allow it to work for both stunned and paralyzed, which would apparently be RAW ?
(also I realize we're probably a bit out-of-topic here, considering this is the "rules & game mechanics" section, but since the original question has been properly answered, I assume it's okay ?)
RAW says they can apply evasion to any successful DEX save, so I can't say it's wrong to apply it to a stunned character. At the same time, you could also argue that RAI says if you can't move, you can't evade. To take the way I handled the initial situation a step further, if I'm treating auto-success and auto-fail as canceling each other out a-la advantage and disadvantage (and I fully admit this was me flying by the seat of my pants), then it's reasonable to let the target roll for a DEX save and then apply evasion or not based on the result of the roll. While careful metamagic can explain the weirdness away by saying "Hey, it's magic. The spell is dodging the person," in this case, it's clearly the person who is expected to do the evading.
I wonder if you could say that the specific restriction of being unable to move while stunned would supercede the general rule that a successful DEX save allows evasion. I don't know if that holds up logically.
EDIT: ClementP is right. DM should either allow it based on RAW or disallow it based on being unable to move. There should be no roll in the case of evasion while stunned.
To take the way I handled the initial situation a step further, if I'm treating auto-success and auto-fail as canceling each other out a-la advantage and disadvantage (and I fully admit this was me flying by the seat of my pants), then it's reasonable to let the target roll for a DEX save and then apply evasion or not based on the result of the roll.
That would mean letting a paralyzed target roll a Dex save, which is weird to me.
I really don't think we should go by RAW here, because by RAW, both stunned and paralyzed would let someone trigger evasion on a careful spell. And by RAW both of these work pretty much the same way.
Evasion is a class feature not available to everyone, and it is a specific rule. Conditions--while applied to individual circumstances--follow general rules that apply to anyone inflicted with it.
I don't believe Evasion is necessarily tied to whether a creature is capable of moving or not. There's a luck factor too, and Evasion is always available. Evasion activates any time an effect calls for a Dex saving throw, and happens whether the creature is able to actually roll the saving throw or not.
Even without Careful Spell, a Unconscious, Paralyzed, or Stunned creature with Evasion automatically takes no more than half-damage from a Fireball. These conditions cause a creature to automatically fail its saving throw, yet a saving throw was still made. Since it was a failed saving throw, Evasion lets the creature only take half-damage.
Careful Spell causes the creature to automatically pass the saving throw against that specific spell, so Evasion lets that creature take zero damage.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Careful Spell allows you to take half damage from the Fireball. If your Evasion falls the Dex save you take half of the remaining damage. That is 1/4, right?
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.
I can definitely see a straightforward reading that says "Fireball allows you to make a DEX saving throw to take half damage" and therefore evasion applies. I can also see a reading that says "The stunned condition does not allow you to make a DEX saving throw" so evasion does not apply.
The Sage Advice compendium offers advice on a similar situation. "Can a rogue use Evasion if they are surprised? The rule states that if you are surprised, you can’t move or take an action. A surprised rogue can use Evasion, since that feature doesn’t require the rogue to take an action or move." I am not sure it is the same situation since the surprised condition still allows for DEX saving throws while the stunned condition does not.
EDIT: I found a problem with my own logic. Forget the stunned condition for a moment. If a sorcerer casts a careful fireball that hits someone with evasion, by my own logic above, evasion would not apply since the careful spell automatically makes them pass the saving throw and therefore no dexterity saving throw is allowed. It doesn't feel appropriate when I apply it that way.
Careful Spell allows you to take half damage from the Fireball. If your Evasion falls the Dex save you take half of the remaining damage. That is 1/4, right?
Fireball says if you succeed a DEX save, you take half damage. Careful spell says a creature automatically succeed the save. Evasion says if you are forced to make a DEX save for half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed and half damage if you fail.
There is never an instance of halving damage twice in these interactions.
DxJxC is right. the only way I can think of to take 1/4 damage from a fireball is to make the save and also have fire resistance. Due to D&D's rounding, if you took 11 damage from the fireball, it would be amazingly reduced to 2 points of fire damage.
The Evasion feature refers to you dodging, but it doesn't explicitly require you to be mobile. RAI: being paralyzed negates the feature. RAW: being paralyzed has no effect on the feature. Either way, being paralyzed causes you to automatically fail a Dexterity saving throw.
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.
I can definitely see a straightforward reading that says "Fireball allows you to make a DEX saving throw to take half damage" and therefore evasion applies. I can also see a reading that says "The stunned condition does not allow you to make a DEX saving throw" so evasion does not apply.
That's not true, but highlights the key point. The Stunned condition only makes you fail Str/Dex saving throws, not prevent you from making a Str/Dex saving throw at all.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
DxJxC is right. the only way I can think of to take 1/4 damage from a fireball is to make the save and also have fire resistance. Due to D&D's rounding, if you took 11 damage from the fireball, it would be amazingly reduced to 2 points of fire damage.
Yeah, Wouldn't really be fair to get two saves against the same spell.
That's not true, but highlights the key point. The Stunned condition only makes you fail Str/Dex saving throws, not prevent you from making a Str/Dex saving throw at all.
Respectfully, that is absurd. You are allowed to roll the die. It doesn't matter what you roll, but you can roll the die.
That's not true, but highlights the key point. The Stunned condition only makes you fail Str/Dex saving throws, not prevent you from making a Str/Dex saving throw at all.
Respectfully, that is absurd. You are allowed to roll the die. It doesn't matter what you roll, but you can roll the die.
Not sure what you think is absurd here... when you're Stunned and need to roll a Dex save, whether you actually roll a die or not is irrelevant; the Dex save happens, and the creature fails it. If that Dex save was triggered by a Careful Spell Fireball, rolling the die is still irrelevant; the Dex save happens, and the creature passes it.
There is a Dex save no matter what, pass or fail, and Evasion applies itself based on the result.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As illogical as it sounds, everything I have read goes against common sense and says that Evasion is a passive ability that applies to all DEX saves, regardless of the creatures state. So unless something actually prevents a DEX save, evasion would apply per RAW. Which is utterly ridiculous, but c'est la vie.
As illogical as it sounds, everything I have read goes against common sense and says that Evasion is a passive ability that applies to all DEX saves, regardless of the creatures state. So unless something actually prevents a DEX save, evasion would apply per RAW. Which is utterly ridiculous, but c'est la vie.
I think we agree, even the Sage Advice quoted earlier agrees that RAW and RAI are in conflict here:
The Evasion feature refers to you dodging, but it doesn't explicitly require you to be mobile. RAI: being paralyzed negates the feature. RAW: being paralyzed has no effect on the feature. Either way, being paralyzed causes you to automatically fail a Dexterity saving throw.
Those are 2 different things. That is why stunned specifies both if them.
Yes, I meant stunned, apologies. I think we're using the same wording to mean different things here, though ? I understand the "can't move" from stunned differently as the "can't move" from Paralyzed. A paralyzed character literally can't move, they're stuck in place, like a statue. A stunned character can't take a move action to move up to their speed, but they're probably "oscillating" on the spot. They can't really move correctly, but they're still moving, and I can see a character with Evasion still being able to jump out of the way out of instinct from an easily avoidable spell.
A stunned character also isn't Unconscious, they can still react to things, albeit not in any meaningful way normally.
But I'm not talking game rules here, it's more about my interpretation of the meaning of the terms in english, and how i represent them in my game.
Would you not allow Evasion to work for a stunned character ? Or would you allow it to work for both stunned and paralyzed, which would apparently be RAW ?
(also I realize we're probably a bit out-of-topic here, considering this is the "rules & game mechanics" section, but since the original question has been properly answered, I assume it's okay ?)
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RAW says they can apply evasion to any successful DEX save, so I can't say it's wrong to apply it to a stunned character. At the same time, you could also argue that RAI says if you can't move, you can't evade.
To take the way I handled the initial situation a step further, if I'm treating auto-success and auto-fail as canceling each other out a-la advantage and disadvantage (and I fully admit this was me flying by the seat of my pants), then it's reasonable to let the target roll for a DEX save and then apply evasion or not based on the result of the roll.While careful metamagic can explain the weirdness away by saying "Hey, it's magic. The spell is dodging the person," in this case, it's clearly the person who is expected to do the evading.I wonder if you could say that the specific restriction of being unable to move while stunned would supercede the general rule that a successful DEX save allows evasion. I don't know if that holds up logically.
EDIT: ClementP is right. DM should either allow it based on RAW or disallow it based on being unable to move. There should be no roll in the case of evasion while stunned.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That would mean letting a paralyzed target roll a Dex save, which is weird to me.
I really don't think we should go by RAW here, because by RAW, both stunned and paralyzed would let someone trigger evasion on a careful spell. And by RAW both of these work pretty much the same way.
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Evasion is a class feature not available to everyone, and it is a specific rule. Conditions--while applied to individual circumstances--follow general rules that apply to anyone inflicted with it.
I don't believe Evasion is necessarily tied to whether a creature is capable of moving or not. There's a luck factor too, and Evasion is always available. Evasion activates any time an effect calls for a Dex saving throw, and happens whether the creature is able to actually roll the saving throw or not.
Even without Careful Spell, a Unconscious, Paralyzed, or Stunned creature with Evasion automatically takes no more than half-damage from a Fireball. These conditions cause a creature to automatically fail its saving throw, yet a saving throw was still made. Since it was a failed saving throw, Evasion lets the creature only take half-damage.
Careful Spell causes the creature to automatically pass the saving throw against that specific spell, so Evasion lets that creature take zero damage.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Or would that be 1/4 damage in the case of Fireball?
Why would it be?
Careful Spell allows you to take half damage from the Fireball. If your Evasion falls the Dex save you take half of the remaining damage. That is 1/4, right?
I can definitely see a straightforward reading that says "Fireball allows you to make a DEX saving throw to take half damage" and therefore evasion applies. I can also see a reading that says "The stunned condition does not allow you to make a DEX saving throw" so evasion does not apply.
The Sage Advice compendium offers advice on a similar situation. "Can a rogue use Evasion if they are surprised? The rule states that if you are surprised, you can’t move or take an action. A surprised rogue can use Evasion, since that feature doesn’t require the rogue to take an action or move." I am not sure it is the same situation since the surprised condition still allows for DEX saving throws while the stunned condition does not.
EDIT: I found a problem with my own logic. Forget the stunned condition for a moment. If a sorcerer casts a careful fireball that hits someone with evasion, by my own logic above, evasion would not apply since the careful spell automatically makes them pass the saving throw and therefore no dexterity saving throw is allowed. It doesn't feel appropriate when I apply it that way.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Fireball says if you succeed a DEX save, you take half damage. Careful spell says a creature automatically succeed the save. Evasion says if you are forced to make a DEX save for half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed and half damage if you fail.
There is never an instance of halving damage twice in these interactions.
DxJxC is right. the only way I can think of to take 1/4 damage from a fireball is to make the save and also have fire resistance. Due to D&D's rounding, if you took 11 damage from the fireball, it would be amazingly reduced to 2 points of fire damage.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Of course there's a Sage Advice for it. I'm just really bad at finding them. And unsurprisingly, he has no time for my nitpickery :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That's not true, but highlights the key point. The Stunned condition only makes you fail Str/Dex saving throws, not prevent you from making a Str/Dex saving throw at all.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, Wouldn't really be fair to get two saves against the same spell.
Respectfully, that is absurd. You are allowed to roll the die. It doesn't matter what you roll, but you can roll the die.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Not sure what you think is absurd here... when you're Stunned and need to roll a Dex save, whether you actually roll a die or not is irrelevant; the Dex save happens, and the creature fails it. If that Dex save was triggered by a Careful Spell Fireball, rolling the die is still irrelevant; the Dex save happens, and the creature passes it.
There is a Dex save no matter what, pass or fail, and Evasion applies itself based on the result.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As illogical as it sounds, everything I have read goes against common sense and says that Evasion is a passive ability that applies to all DEX saves, regardless of the creatures state. So unless something actually prevents a DEX save, evasion would apply per RAW. Which is utterly ridiculous, but c'est la vie.
I think we agree, even the Sage Advice quoted earlier agrees that RAW and RAI are in conflict here:
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