So... Am I stupid or is this worded wrong... At level six for a wizard of the School of Invocation, you get the ability Potent Cantrip which reads:
Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip’s damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
Again, am I stupid? A creature succeeds a save then it typically takes 1/2 damage any ways... So... Why is this ability necessary? If it were an ability where they would tasks no damage I would see the benefit... But I can't think of any cantrips on the wizard spell list like that. I just don't see the point here...
On cantrips they generally take no damage if they make their save. Example, here is the text for the spell Acid Splash
You hurl a bubble of acid. Choose one or two creatures you can see within range. If you choose two, they must be within 5 feet of each other. A target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 acid damage.
This spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).
Again, am I stupid? A creature succeeds a save then it typically takes 1/2 damage any ways... So... Why is this ability necessary? If it were an ability where they would tasks no damage I would see the benefit... But I can't think of any cantrips on the wizard spell list like that. I just don't see the point here...
But yeah, you're not reading cantrips properly. Every single cantrip in the game (officially so far) that damages enemies is a "save or damage" type: if you save, you don't take any damage or suffer any effects. That's why they're cantrips.
'Toll the Dead' with Potent Cantrip has been pretty awesome. 1st it's wisdom save which many creatures don't have high wisdom. Second, first time you toll them it's d8's, 1/2 if failed then second time it's d12's, half if failed. You can stay in almost full cover since you only need to seem them. Even rogue evasion or a Shield Master doesn't help. Link it with multi-class sorcerer for quickened or twinned is even better. Too bad there isn't a Necromantic Dragon for dragonic blood line.
To expound on this slightly, a spell will explicitly say if the target(s) take half damage on a successful save (see: Fireball). If the spell does not say that the target takes half damage on a successful save, then the target(s) takes 0 damage on a successful save.
Given the examples above, Acid Splash and Toll the Dead do not state that the target(s) take half damage on a successful save. So, then, they take no damage on a successful save.
The spells are pretty good at describing what they do. A basic rule of thumb is that if a spell's description does not state it does x, y, or z, then the spell does not do x, y, or z.
I'm getting the feeling that, yes... I am stupid... Thank you crowdsourcing
A stupid person is unable or refuses to learn. You were just ignorant, now you are not.
This. Plus it is very easy to get confused with earlier editions and/or certain RPG video games with subtly different rules. A trap I've fallen into myself when I started in 5th edition!
So how would this work against people or monster's with abilities like the Monk's evasion skill which says,
"At 7th level, your instinctive agility lets you dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a blue dragon’s lightning breath or a fireball spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail."
Which ability trumps the other? For example, say I cast a cantrip at such a creature that succeeds its saving throw. Does it take half damage or no damage? And if it fails does it take half and avoid other effects?
So how would this work against people or monster's with abilities like the Monk's evasion skill which says,
"At 7th level, your instinctive agility lets you dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a blue dragon’s lightning breath or a fireball spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail."
Which ability trumps the other? For example, say I cast a cantrip at such a creature that succeeds its saving throw. Does it take half damage or no damage? And if it fails does it take half and avoid other effects?
My ruling would be that neither trumps the other; the monk ability doesn't apply at all. Cantrips are not "effect[s] that allow you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage." They're effects that allow you to make a saving throw to take no damage. The evoker ability doesn't come into play until the saving throw has already been rolled and passed.
This is what I believe to be the RAW of the situation, and I'm comfortable with ruling this way in actual play as well, for the following reason: the monk ability allows the monk to take half damage on a failed saving throw, but for the above reason, it normally doesn't work on cantrips. If we say that the evoker ability suddenly allows the monk ability to come into play (which I reiterate I do not think is RAW, but I DO think it makes superficial sense), the evoker ability makes cantrips weaker than they would be if cast without the ability. A non-evoker can deal full damage on a failed saving throw, but the evoker would only be able to deal half damage. That does not make sense.
So there's a sort of legalistic order-of-operations reason for what the RAW is, and a more intuitive reason for why what the RAW is should make sense.
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So... Am I stupid or is this worded wrong... At level six for a wizard of the School of Invocation, you get the ability Potent Cantrip which reads:
Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip’s damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
Again, am I stupid? A creature succeeds a save then it typically takes 1/2 damage any ways... So... Why is this ability necessary? If it were an ability where they would tasks no damage I would see the benefit... But I can't think of any cantrips on the wizard spell list like that. I just don't see the point here...
On cantrips they generally take no damage if they make their save. Example, here is the text for the spell Acid Splash
You hurl a bubble of acid. Choose one or two creatures you can see within range. If you choose two, they must be within 5 feet of each other. A target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 acid damage.
This spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).
So cantrips only cause damage on a failed save.
Acid Splash, Create Bonfire, Frostbite, Infestation, Lightning Lure, Mind Sliver, Poison Spray, Sword Burst, Thunderclap and Toll the Dead: "Am I a joke to you?"
But yeah, you're not reading cantrips properly. Every single cantrip in the game (officially so far) that damages enemies is a "save or damage" type: if you save, you don't take any damage or suffer any effects. That's why they're cantrips.
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'Toll the Dead' with Potent Cantrip has been pretty awesome. 1st it's wisdom save which many creatures don't have high wisdom. Second, first time you toll them it's d8's, 1/2 if failed then second time it's d12's, half if failed. You can stay in almost full cover since you only need to seem them. Even rogue evasion or a Shield Master doesn't help. Link it with multi-class sorcerer for quickened or twinned is even better. Too bad there isn't a Necromantic Dragon for dragonic blood line.
Creatures who save vs cantrips take 0 damage. So yes. It matters.
To expound on this slightly, a spell will explicitly say if the target(s) take half damage on a successful save (see: Fireball). If the spell does not say that the target takes half damage on a successful save, then the target(s) takes 0 damage on a successful save.
Given the examples above, Acid Splash and Toll the Dead do not state that the target(s) take half damage on a successful save. So, then, they take no damage on a successful save.
The spells are pretty good at describing what they do. A basic rule of thumb is that if a spell's description does not state it does x, y, or z, then the spell does not do x, y, or z.
I'm getting the feeling that, yes... I am stupid... Thank you crowdsourcing
We'll we tried to be nice to you. Glad we could help you on your journey of self discovery though 😀.
A stupid person is unable or refuses to learn. You were just ignorant, now you are not.
This. Plus it is very easy to get confused with earlier editions and/or certain RPG video games with subtly different rules. A trap I've fallen into myself when I started in 5th edition!
So how would this work against people or monster's with abilities like the Monk's evasion skill which says,
"At 7th level, your instinctive agility lets you dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a blue dragon’s lightning breath or a fireball spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail."
Which ability trumps the other? For example, say I cast a cantrip at such a creature that succeeds its saving throw. Does it take half damage or no damage? And if it fails does it take half and avoid other effects?
My ruling would be that neither trumps the other; the monk ability doesn't apply at all. Cantrips are not "effect[s] that allow you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage." They're effects that allow you to make a saving throw to take no damage. The evoker ability doesn't come into play until the saving throw has already been rolled and passed.
This is what I believe to be the RAW of the situation, and I'm comfortable with ruling this way in actual play as well, for the following reason: the monk ability allows the monk to take half damage on a failed saving throw, but for the above reason, it normally doesn't work on cantrips. If we say that the evoker ability suddenly allows the monk ability to come into play (which I reiterate I do not think is RAW, but I DO think it makes superficial sense), the evoker ability makes cantrips weaker than they would be if cast without the ability. A non-evoker can deal full damage on a failed saving throw, but the evoker would only be able to deal half damage. That does not make sense.
So there's a sort of legalistic order-of-operations reason for what the RAW is, and a more intuitive reason for why what the RAW is should make sense.