Fighting a mimic book that was attached to my arm while in a library. I asked the DM what the floor was. Made out of and he said stone. I said i planted the mimic on the floor, used Mold Earth to hold it down, and pulled my arm free. He gave me advantage to break free of this. In hind sight, would that have technically been 2 actions? Mold Earth and the break free?
My actual question for this thread would be how would you rule the difficulty for this Improvised Grapple? I like to play the game fare and it is our groups first time, so our DM actually references to me pretty often on the rullings for some things. For this it would make sense for it to be a fairly high save against the grapple since I am holding a book down with a stone floor (I was thinking 15 maybe?) But because I like a fair game I. Said that the default for most saves seems to be around 10 with some sort of modifier and I let him set the difficulty of the save (which he defaulted to 10 allowing the book to break free).
Because Mold Earth doesn't look to be designed for combat use, there is nothing on this. On top of this, would the save needed to break free be the same for all situations? If I use Mold Earth to plant the foot of a giant walking tree in the dirt, would it be the same as holding a book down with a stone floor?
There definitely isn't any sort of ruling for how to use Mold Earth to get a mimic to let go of you. But it seems like a clever way to try to break free, and at the end of the day all the spell did was give you advantage on a check to break a grapple, so I'd allow it. "A little bit of clever role-play and problem solving gets you advantage on a check" isn't a bad precedent.
I probably wouldn't change the difficulty of breaking the grapple, though. The mimic already has rules for what its grapple strength is, and escaping it is DC13. (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/mimic). And reading that, it says that ability checks to escape the grapple have *disadvantage*, so the advantage and disadvantage would cancel out and it would be a straight roll.
I probably wouldn't allow the same Mold Earth trick against things that aren't small and immobile like the Mimic in book form. I think a giant that you tried to hold down with Mold Earth would just keep walking with a 5-foot chunk of earth stuck to its feet. Someone of comparable size to you could still hold you just as effectively if they had some earth around their feet.
I don't know where you got the idea that the default for most saves is 10; 10 is a pretty easy check.
So, Mold Earth, does not describe an effect like you mention, so we are already in home-rule territory, rather than actual rules. The spell does have a direct combat utility, in that it can make a patch of ground difficult terrain. That is only a very slight advantage, so any improvised use should not be expected to be much greater. It is even specifically limited when working with stone, since the first dot-point about moving can only be done with loose earth.
So, the DM has allowed you to use the spell in an unorthodox fashion, and it sounds like it was cool and all had fun so good job. Your follow-up questions are all along the lines of "was the DM correct..." and the answer to that (when you've already departed from written rules) is always "yes, the DM is correct". The DM decides if your plan is possible. The DM decides how many actions are used. The DM decides what checks to roll and what the DC might be.
The final question, "would the spell work the same way against a giant tree?". No. The DM is not bound by their earlier rulings. Even another attempt against a book-shaped enemy need not work out the same. The DM is well within their rights to say the spell won't work for that at all, or they might give you an even better result. Personally, I would let this work only once or twice, but welcome and reward other imaginative uses.
I think the original poster is asking about the DC of using Mold Earth to pin / grapple / hold down the mimic, not to actually break free of the mimic, which they already did prior to attempting to hold down this mimic. The question is regarding their "improvised grapple" using the stone of a floor via Mold Cantrip.
A lot of good replies, thanks for the feedback guys. Going to give a bit of context real quick before replying to each post in reverse order because, ironically, it will make more sense if answered that way. I am treating Mold Earth as a type of silver bullet for its grapple capability. I have no intention of abusing this but I want to know the extent of how it should work so if we get into a tight spot I know how I can use this to help my group out. This Mimic fight was the third fight we were involved in. In the first two fights I wound up going down before it ever got to my turn and had to make Death/Save roles to keep my character alive for the entire fight. In the library we were in hunting this thing I suggested that we do some research on the creature before we actually got real involved with the hunt, had our barbarian poke the book on mimics and it didn't move, but the book of mimics turned into the mimic and latched onto me when I tried to remove it from the shelf. Having it grappled to me makes me the target of all its attacks and it was doing bite AND poison damage every round... against a lvl 2 Sorcerer. #LoadSilverBullet.
@Cyb3rM1nd
Yes, My initial and primary question is about what the DC is to break the Improvised Grapple caused by Mold Earth. I figured it would be different depending on the Earth used. For stone, it would be higher then with dirt. For dirt, it would be higher then with sand or gravel.
@RegentCorreo
The first point has to deal with moving the Target Earth in question from one location to another if I understand it correctly. The second point indicates that the Target Earth can be altered in shape or design. "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour." Reading back on it this could be understood as the earth shape shifts to create the shapes or the shapes are magically placed on the surface of the Target Earth. Because this concept overlaps so closely with Prestidigitation but they are different spells, I was looking at this from the aspect of I can change the way the stone looks in some way, but not be able to excavate it as the first point indicates. If this is the case, Simply creating a hook shape out of the stone allowing me to hold the creature pinned by the stone down would fall into this category. Ill be discussing it further with my DM to make sure that this is ok. I also totally agree that said spell would not work the same for all creatures.
A bit of further context because it sounds like people think that i'm questioning the decisions of my DM and i'm not. Our campaign basically has our DM running it with two extra people that are in the campaign acting as backup help. His wife to be helps spot check the story to make sure there are no major plot holes or problems with the story to help ensure that everyone has a good time with how the story is layed out. This also works really well as it lets her act as an unofficial guide to help us move forward. There was a big story hook that required us to each speak to someone in our family to get the story started. We were starting off the adventure by just leaving the first town to go on an adventure. Had she not gone to her house first, we would not know that we needed to go to each of ours as well. Similarly, I do a lot of research into how certain things work via the rulings in D&D because I have recently gotten addicted to D&D for some reason. I guess I failed that save to resist its effects. He only has enough time to really create the story, layout the monsters, and figure out where we are going next so he doesn't have the time to figure out how all of our abilities work, what they all do, how our stats compare, ect. When we need to lvl up I basically help the other 3 party members in our group to make sure something doesn't get fked up along the way and that they have a basic idea of how their skills work. Similarly, it is very often that he will ask me for confirmation as to how something should be ruled. I always answer in such a way that it still gives him the choice to make the final call. DM - "Would that be a Dex or Athletics check?" Me - "I think that would be a Dex check because blah blah blah." Not "That Is a Dex check because reasons." When he does decide on one, regardless of weather or not I think it was right, I back him up and don't question his decision. I'm not interested in cheating because it would ruin the spirit of the game, but I also don't want to misuse a spell because of my misunderstanding of it, but I also want to have a silver bullet or two up my sleeve in-case he pits us against a "Oh shit this is way out of yalls level" type situation by accident.
@ftl
I think I got the 10 on the default dc for a save from how some of the spells work. At the time I think I thought it was the base for a dc check before any modifiers to your spells/skills but I wasn't sure and I didn't want to hold up the entire game to figure out what the default was and how it "Should" work. As can be seen here, one post, 3 comments later, and i'm still making sure I'm doing it right, lol. I set 10, more then anything, because it was half of 20 so I wouldn't completely ruin the DM's combat plan and the creature would be able to break out pretty quick (Ended up being the next turn) preventing the rest of the fight from being a "Just stab the book in the floor till it dies since it can't fight back now" type of fight.
A final question, I recently found the Mold Earth video by the Animated Spell Book that talks about the spell. Although this idea wasn't brought up he did mention something else I found somewhat interesting. He comments on the fact that you can technically move a 5ft cube of earth into an area that is occupied by another creature. This was followed up by an animation of the earth moving into the creatures spot causing the creature to phase into the cube without being pushed around. Would this imply that I can technically turn the earth beneath a creature into temporary quick sand causing a creature to sink into it before it hardens, holding them in the ground? If I was a DM I would rule this as a creature with less armor/weight would sink into the soil less changing what the DC is to break free of the dirt then a creature that is heavily burdened by armor, weapons, ect. Reason for this is that if you buried a Sorcerer in the ground, it would take about 3 hits on what would be classified as a prone enemy to kill them off. If you buried a Paladin in full plate armor with a shield in the ground, his AC would be high enough he would still have a chance to break free before the attacks killed him off. Also because its only his lower half, he could still technically swing at anyone near him allowing him to still attack, but not move.
Again, thanks for all the input guys. Having the extra set of perspectives to make sure i'm not feeding my DM bad information really helps.
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Fighting a mimic book that was attached to my arm while in a library. I asked the DM what the floor was. Made out of and he said stone. I said i planted the mimic on the floor, used Mold Earth to hold it down, and pulled my arm free. He gave me advantage to break free of this. In hind sight, would that have technically been 2 actions? Mold Earth and the break free?
My actual question for this thread would be how would you rule the difficulty for this Improvised Grapple? I like to play the game fare and it is our groups first time, so our DM actually references to me pretty often on the rullings for some things. For this it would make sense for it to be a fairly high save against the grapple since I am holding a book down with a stone floor (I was thinking 15 maybe?) But because I like a fair game I. Said that the default for most saves seems to be around 10 with some sort of modifier and I let him set the difficulty of the save (which he defaulted to 10 allowing the book to break free).
Because Mold Earth doesn't look to be designed for combat use, there is nothing on this. On top of this, would the save needed to break free be the same for all situations? If I use Mold Earth to plant the foot of a giant walking tree in the dirt, would it be the same as holding a book down with a stone floor?
There definitely isn't any sort of ruling for how to use Mold Earth to get a mimic to let go of you. But it seems like a clever way to try to break free, and at the end of the day all the spell did was give you advantage on a check to break a grapple, so I'd allow it. "A little bit of clever role-play and problem solving gets you advantage on a check" isn't a bad precedent.
I probably wouldn't change the difficulty of breaking the grapple, though. The mimic already has rules for what its grapple strength is, and escaping it is DC13. (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/mimic). And reading that, it says that ability checks to escape the grapple have *disadvantage*, so the advantage and disadvantage would cancel out and it would be a straight roll.
I probably wouldn't allow the same Mold Earth trick against things that aren't small and immobile like the Mimic in book form. I think a giant that you tried to hold down with Mold Earth would just keep walking with a 5-foot chunk of earth stuck to its feet. Someone of comparable size to you could still hold you just as effectively if they had some earth around their feet.
I don't know where you got the idea that the default for most saves is 10; 10 is a pretty easy check.
So, Mold Earth, does not describe an effect like you mention, so we are already in home-rule territory, rather than actual rules. The spell does have a direct combat utility, in that it can make a patch of ground difficult terrain. That is only a very slight advantage, so any improvised use should not be expected to be much greater. It is even specifically limited when working with stone, since the first dot-point about moving can only be done with loose earth.
So, the DM has allowed you to use the spell in an unorthodox fashion, and it sounds like it was cool and all had fun so good job. Your follow-up questions are all along the lines of "was the DM correct..." and the answer to that (when you've already departed from written rules) is always "yes, the DM is correct". The DM decides if your plan is possible. The DM decides how many actions are used. The DM decides what checks to roll and what the DC might be.
The final question, "would the spell work the same way against a giant tree?". No. The DM is not bound by their earlier rulings. Even another attempt against a book-shaped enemy need not work out the same. The DM is well within their rights to say the spell won't work for that at all, or they might give you an even better result. Personally, I would let this work only once or twice, but welcome and reward other imaginative uses.
I think the original poster is asking about the DC of using Mold Earth to pin / grapple / hold down the mimic, not to actually break free of the mimic, which they already did prior to attempting to hold down this mimic. The question is regarding their "improvised grapple" using the stone of a floor via Mold Cantrip.
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A lot of good replies, thanks for the feedback guys. Going to give a bit of context real quick before replying to each post in reverse order because, ironically, it will make more sense if answered that way. I am treating Mold Earth as a type of silver bullet for its grapple capability. I have no intention of abusing this but I want to know the extent of how it should work so if we get into a tight spot I know how I can use this to help my group out. This Mimic fight was the third fight we were involved in. In the first two fights I wound up going down before it ever got to my turn and had to make Death/Save roles to keep my character alive for the entire fight. In the library we were in hunting this thing I suggested that we do some research on the creature before we actually got real involved with the hunt, had our barbarian poke the book on mimics and it didn't move, but the book of mimics turned into the mimic and latched onto me when I tried to remove it from the shelf. Having it grappled to me makes me the target of all its attacks and it was doing bite AND poison damage every round... against a lvl 2 Sorcerer. #LoadSilverBullet.
@Cyb3rM1nd
Yes, My initial and primary question is about what the DC is to break the Improvised Grapple caused by Mold Earth. I figured it would be different depending on the Earth used. For stone, it would be higher then with dirt. For dirt, it would be higher then with sand or gravel.
@RegentCorreo
The first point has to deal with moving the Target Earth in question from one location to another if I understand it correctly. The second point indicates that the Target Earth can be altered in shape or design. "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour." Reading back on it this could be understood as the earth shape shifts to create the shapes or the shapes are magically placed on the surface of the Target Earth. Because this concept overlaps so closely with Prestidigitation but they are different spells, I was looking at this from the aspect of I can change the way the stone looks in some way, but not be able to excavate it as the first point indicates. If this is the case, Simply creating a hook shape out of the stone allowing me to hold the creature pinned by the stone down would fall into this category. Ill be discussing it further with my DM to make sure that this is ok. I also totally agree that said spell would not work the same for all creatures.
A bit of further context because it sounds like people think that i'm questioning the decisions of my DM and i'm not. Our campaign basically has our DM running it with two extra people that are in the campaign acting as backup help. His wife to be helps spot check the story to make sure there are no major plot holes or problems with the story to help ensure that everyone has a good time with how the story is layed out. This also works really well as it lets her act as an unofficial guide to help us move forward. There was a big story hook that required us to each speak to someone in our family to get the story started. We were starting off the adventure by just leaving the first town to go on an adventure. Had she not gone to her house first, we would not know that we needed to go to each of ours as well. Similarly, I do a lot of research into how certain things work via the rulings in D&D because I have recently gotten addicted to D&D for some reason. I guess I failed that save to resist its effects. He only has enough time to really create the story, layout the monsters, and figure out where we are going next so he doesn't have the time to figure out how all of our abilities work, what they all do, how our stats compare, ect. When we need to lvl up I basically help the other 3 party members in our group to make sure something doesn't get fked up along the way and that they have a basic idea of how their skills work. Similarly, it is very often that he will ask me for confirmation as to how something should be ruled. I always answer in such a way that it still gives him the choice to make the final call. DM - "Would that be a Dex or Athletics check?" Me - "I think that would be a Dex check because blah blah blah." Not "That Is a Dex check because reasons." When he does decide on one, regardless of weather or not I think it was right, I back him up and don't question his decision. I'm not interested in cheating because it would ruin the spirit of the game, but I also don't want to misuse a spell because of my misunderstanding of it, but I also want to have a silver bullet or two up my sleeve in-case he pits us against a "Oh shit this is way out of yalls level" type situation by accident.
@ftl
I think I got the 10 on the default dc for a save from how some of the spells work. At the time I think I thought it was the base for a dc check before any modifiers to your spells/skills but I wasn't sure and I didn't want to hold up the entire game to figure out what the default was and how it "Should" work. As can be seen here, one post, 3 comments later, and i'm still making sure I'm doing it right, lol. I set 10, more then anything, because it was half of 20 so I wouldn't completely ruin the DM's combat plan and the creature would be able to break out pretty quick (Ended up being the next turn) preventing the rest of the fight from being a "Just stab the book in the floor till it dies since it can't fight back now" type of fight.
A final question, I recently found the Mold Earth video by the Animated Spell Book that talks about the spell. Although this idea wasn't brought up he did mention something else I found somewhat interesting. He comments on the fact that you can technically move a 5ft cube of earth into an area that is occupied by another creature. This was followed up by an animation of the earth moving into the creatures spot causing the creature to phase into the cube without being pushed around. Would this imply that I can technically turn the earth beneath a creature into temporary quick sand causing a creature to sink into it before it hardens, holding them in the ground? If I was a DM I would rule this as a creature with less armor/weight would sink into the soil less changing what the DC is to break free of the dirt then a creature that is heavily burdened by armor, weapons, ect. Reason for this is that if you buried a Sorcerer in the ground, it would take about 3 hits on what would be classified as a prone enemy to kill them off. If you buried a Paladin in full plate armor with a shield in the ground, his AC would be high enough he would still have a chance to break free before the attacks killed him off. Also because its only his lower half, he could still technically swing at anyone near him allowing him to still attack, but not move.
Again, thanks for all the input guys. Having the extra set of perspectives to make sure i'm not feeding my DM bad information really helps.