I am planning on making my players fight on some water lilys or nenuphars right after falling to the water, and the enemies I've picked are Giant Toads. The problem I have is that I don't really know how water would affect my players' spells, such as electricity or fire based attacks... Would a lightning do more damage or expand easilier? Would a fireball just hit less?
I am pretty sure I can house rule it, but if anyone has any official guidelines or has encountered this issue before and found a satisfactory solution, I'd like to hear it.
Disadvantage on the save is something I didn't think about, but will definitely consider. Seems to be quite a good idea, and underwater rules seem to be what I was looking for
This kind of stuff actually started an argument in a session of mine when I was running Princes of the Apocalypse. A lieutenant of the water cult used a teleportation spell to enter the water to escape (they were going to fight it later). The bard and sorcerer wanted to cast spells into the water to attempt to stop him, so one cast a lightning spell and the other a thunder spell (can't remember which ones) as close as they could to the enemy (they couldn't see him) and argued with me (for a while) that it shouldn't matter where the enemy was that the spells should affect a much larger area than they normally do, since water conducts electricity (especially since it was sea water) and shock waves travel farther in water.
I'm pretty sure they are still upset when it comes up, but I just ruled that it's a magical effect and so it ignores the rules of physics, be it for the better or the worse.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
As unfortunate as it might seem in those moments where the players would want physics to actually apply, it is better for the overall game in my opinion to keep physics out of the game entirely - whether that is calculating falling damage to be surprisingly non-harmful, allowing giants to stand upright without issue or dragons to fly, not having huge enemy's attacks completely destroy player characters (i.e. "the giant wacks you with his club" being significantly different from the "you've been hit by a speeding car" equivalent physics would make it), or that you can aim "lightning" at anything in the first place rather than it behaving as lightning does.
As unfortunate as it might seem in those moments where the players would want physics to actually apply, it is better for the overall game in my opinion to keep physics out of the game entirely - whether that is calculating falling damage to be surprisingly non-harmful, allowing giants to stand upright without issue or dragons to fly, not having huge enemy's attacks completely destroy player characters (i.e. "the giant wacks you with his club" being significantly different from the "you've been hit by a speeding car" equivalent physics would make it), or that you can aim "lightning" at anything in the first place rather than it behaving as lightning does.
Yeah, though with falling damage, I tend to only use it when it's conceivable that they'd survive. For the rest, if they don't have a way to slow themselves (i.e. feather fall or some sort of similar effect), they aren't going to survive, regardless of their level. I mean, averages being what they are, most human beings wouldn't survive a 100 foot fall. Obviously, there are exceptions to every situation, but the fatality rate for falls farther than 90 feet is something like 99.99%. In D&D a 100 foot fall would average out to 35 damage. Most 3rd-4th level characters would survive (though would likely be unconscious and dying). A barbarian, or anyone higher level might even still be "standing" after that fall.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
And as I've mentioned in another thread on this topic, a number of people have survived much higher falls than folk physics would suggest. This is the danger of making DM rulings "because physics" - most people are not physicists. Inventing rules to allow for common sense type things is sometimes helpful for immersion, but it is a slippery slope.
I think the advantage and disadvantage rules are perfectly adequate for adjusting rolls based on circumstances, as per their whole purpose. Use the shocking grasp "advantage against metal foes" as a barometer. But I'd do it sparingly, or you'll have players dumping water on every foe just to get their chain lightning to work better.
"A number" implies not a significant amount, not to mention, those who DID survive only did so because of extenuating circumstances. I'm sure those who survived after reaching terminal velocity are in the uber-minority much in the same way those who get shot in the head and survive are.
Their survival isn't die to any kind of experience or extra toughness (like levels in D&D would imply), but because of absolute one-in-a-million luck.
I mean, hundreds, maybe thousands of people win the lottery, that doesn't mean that the 99.999% of the rest of the people will.
Also, it doesn't require a deep knowledge of physics to understand terminal velocity and that things go splat when they fall long distances.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
It's important to remember that "absolute one-in-a-million-luck" is actually one of the many things which D&D's hit point rules represent in abstract - to quote the first line of the game's description of hit points, "Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck."
It's important to remember that "absolute one-in-a-million-luck" is actually one of the many things which D&D's hit point rules represent in abstract - to quote the first line of the game's description of hit points, "Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck."
I don't see that as "one-in-a-million" luck though. I see that as, lucky enough to not have that sword cut off your arm or the bullet to pass cleanly through without hitting anything important, not physics defying, situational luck.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I don't see that as "one-in-a-million" luck though. I see that as, lucky enough to not have that sword cut off your arm or the bullet to pass cleanly through without hitting anything important, not physics defying, situational luck.
That's a distinction that you are making, not one that the game puts forward.
The game puts forward enough luck involvement in hit points to explain away how a person that seemed like they'd been subject to a lethal blow (got reduced to zero hit points as the result of an attack and spent a few rounds "dying") can be at peak condition (full hit points and hit dice) in no more than two days even without the intervention of magic. That seems clearly "physics defying" to me.
Btw it's not really needed to change how magic lightning works underwater or against wet targets. People seem to think it would be more effective, but being surrounded by sea water would disperse it and make it less harmful, though it's fair to say that magical lightning is at least partially directed by the caster. And in the case of lightning spells the electricity is already travelling through the air, being wet is only a danger for getting electrocuted along the ground, and in most cases people will already have a connection to the ground, creating a path for the electricity to follow. Being wet doesn't increase that danger in any significant way. If you look at the shocking grasp spell, it gets advantage against metal armor, but it's also the only lightning spell that requires you to touch the target, meaning it's also the one that would benefit the most from having an easier time arcing to the target; other spells already direct the electricity to the target.
Ah, my other comment got deleted so I suppose I need to phrase my comments better. I feel like there are already numerous things like dipping in lava or getting hit with dragons breath that have no reasonable explanation for a person actually surviving it. In that way I think that turning a high fall into instead death makes it into an outlier that calls into question other aspects of the game. One thing I do in my campaigns is make it canon that higher level characters actually have stronger souls and life-forces that act to protect their bodies from harm or effects that act against life like sleep spells, divine word, or power word, but that drains their souls, so "positive energy" magic doesn't just restore wounds, but fills the characters tank of self-restorative energy. I also use this as the reasoning for short and long rests being so healing, and I call it a mass blessing cast on the whole world by the good gods of healing and mercy. Kind of like how the magic mechanics are considered rules put into place by the goddess of magic. It also helps to explain why more people aren't as strong as adventurers, they're literally stronger in spirit. I'm not saying it's a better way, but my point is that I think sometimes in such a magical setting it can make more sense to twist the rules of the world to suit the rules of the game instead of the other way around, and it's often way less work. I'm certainly not going to disagree with anyone who decides that because thug A gets hit with lightning bolt while standing in a puddle that his nearby friends get zapped too though, just don't feel like you need to stick to what is actually realistic when magic is involved.
We had a wizard fire off a lightning bolt in the ocean during a fight this past week. I ruled those within 10 feet of each side took diminished damage ( I think 3d6). My group seemed to think this spur of the moment decision was reasonable.
Advantage or disadvantage would be something to easily do and keep things flowing for spells that combine with other elements going on that aren't mentioned in the rules. So, lightning and water would be disadvantage for saving throw or advantage to hit.
I am planning on making my players fight on some water lilys or nenuphars right after falling to the water, and the enemies I've picked are Giant Toads. The problem I have is that I don't really know how water would affect my players' spells, such as electricity or fire based attacks... Would a lightning do more damage or expand easilier? Would a fireball just hit less?
I am pretty sure I can house rule it, but if anyone has any official guidelines or has encountered this issue before and found a satisfactory solution, I'd like to hear it.
Thank you so much in advance!
For the fire damage you can use the official rule for underwater combat, which say that any creature underwater gets resistance to fire damage.
For the lightning damage, there is no official rule. At your discretion you can increase the area of effect or imposing disadvantage on the save.
Disadvantage on the save is something I didn't think about, but will definitely consider. Seems to be quite a good idea, and underwater rules seem to be what I was looking for
This kind of stuff actually started an argument in a session of mine when I was running Princes of the Apocalypse. A lieutenant of the water cult used a teleportation spell to enter the water to escape (they were going to fight it later). The bard and sorcerer wanted to cast spells into the water to attempt to stop him, so one cast a lightning spell and the other a thunder spell (can't remember which ones) as close as they could to the enemy (they couldn't see him) and argued with me (for a while) that it shouldn't matter where the enemy was that the spells should affect a much larger area than they normally do, since water conducts electricity (especially since it was sea water) and shock waves travel farther in water.
I'm pretty sure they are still upset when it comes up, but I just ruled that it's a magical effect and so it ignores the rules of physics, be it for the better or the worse.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
As unfortunate as it might seem in those moments where the players would want physics to actually apply, it is better for the overall game in my opinion to keep physics out of the game entirely - whether that is calculating falling damage to be surprisingly non-harmful, allowing giants to stand upright without issue or dragons to fly, not having huge enemy's attacks completely destroy player characters (i.e. "the giant wacks you with his club" being significantly different from the "you've been hit by a speeding car" equivalent physics would make it), or that you can aim "lightning" at anything in the first place rather than it behaving as lightning does.
Yeah, though with falling damage, I tend to only use it when it's conceivable that they'd survive. For the rest, if they don't have a way to slow themselves (i.e. feather fall or some sort of similar effect), they aren't going to survive, regardless of their level. I mean, averages being what they are, most human beings wouldn't survive a 100 foot fall. Obviously, there are exceptions to every situation, but the fatality rate for falls farther than 90 feet is something like 99.99%. In D&D a 100 foot fall would average out to 35 damage. Most 3rd-4th level characters would survive (though would likely be unconscious and dying). A barbarian, or anyone higher level might even still be "standing" after that fall.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
And as I've mentioned in another thread on this topic, a number of people have survived much higher falls than folk physics would suggest. This is the danger of making DM rulings "because physics" - most people are not physicists. Inventing rules to allow for common sense type things is sometimes helpful for immersion, but it is a slippery slope.
I think the advantage and disadvantage rules are perfectly adequate for adjusting rolls based on circumstances, as per their whole purpose. Use the shocking grasp "advantage against metal foes" as a barometer. But I'd do it sparingly, or you'll have players dumping water on every foe just to get their chain lightning to work better.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
"A number" implies not a significant amount, not to mention, those who DID survive only did so because of extenuating circumstances. I'm sure those who survived after reaching terminal velocity are in the uber-minority much in the same way those who get shot in the head and survive are.
Their survival isn't die to any kind of experience or extra toughness (like levels in D&D would imply), but because of absolute one-in-a-million luck.
I mean, hundreds, maybe thousands of people win the lottery, that doesn't mean that the 99.999% of the rest of the people will.
Also, it doesn't require a deep knowledge of physics to understand terminal velocity and that things go splat when they fall long distances.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
It's important to remember that "absolute one-in-a-million-luck" is actually one of the many things which D&D's hit point rules represent in abstract - to quote the first line of the game's description of hit points, "Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck."
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
That's a distinction that you are making, not one that the game puts forward.
The game puts forward enough luck involvement in hit points to explain away how a person that seemed like they'd been subject to a lethal blow (got reduced to zero hit points as the result of an attack and spent a few rounds "dying") can be at peak condition (full hit points and hit dice) in no more than two days even without the intervention of magic. That seems clearly "physics defying" to me.
Btw it's not really needed to change how magic lightning works underwater or against wet targets. People seem to think it would be more effective, but being surrounded by sea water would disperse it and make it less harmful, though it's fair to say that magical lightning is at least partially directed by the caster. And in the case of lightning spells the electricity is already travelling through the air, being wet is only a danger for getting electrocuted along the ground, and in most cases people will already have a connection to the ground, creating a path for the electricity to follow. Being wet doesn't increase that danger in any significant way. If you look at the shocking grasp spell, it gets advantage against metal armor, but it's also the only lightning spell that requires you to touch the target, meaning it's also the one that would benefit the most from having an easier time arcing to the target; other spells already direct the electricity to the target.
Life is the game.
Ah, my other comment got deleted so I suppose I need to phrase my comments better.
I feel like there are already numerous things like dipping in lava or getting hit with dragons breath that have no reasonable explanation for a person actually surviving it. In that way I think that turning a high fall into instead death makes it into an outlier that calls into question other aspects of the game. One thing I do in my campaigns is make it canon that higher level characters actually have stronger souls and life-forces that act to protect their bodies from harm or effects that act against life like sleep spells, divine word, or power word, but that drains their souls, so "positive energy" magic doesn't just restore wounds, but fills the characters tank of self-restorative energy. I also use this as the reasoning for short and long rests being so healing, and I call it a mass blessing cast on the whole world by the good gods of healing and mercy. Kind of like how the magic mechanics are considered rules put into place by the goddess of magic. It also helps to explain why more people aren't as strong as adventurers, they're literally stronger in spirit.
I'm not saying it's a better way, but my point is that I think sometimes in such a magical setting it can make more sense to twist the rules of the world to suit the rules of the game instead of the other way around, and it's often way less work.
I'm certainly not going to disagree with anyone who decides that because thug A gets hit with lightning bolt while standing in a puddle that his nearby friends get zapped too though, just don't feel like you need to stick to what is actually realistic when magic is involved.
Life is the game.
We had a wizard fire off a lightning bolt in the ocean during a fight this past week. I ruled those within 10 feet of each side took diminished damage ( I think 3d6). My group seemed to think this spur of the moment decision was reasonable.
Advantage or disadvantage would be something to easily do and keep things flowing for spells that combine with other elements going on that aren't mentioned in the rules. So, lightning and water would be disadvantage for saving throw or advantage to hit.
Resistance to fire damage and disadvantage to saving throws against lightning based effect would be my call.