I suppose it depends on the exact situation; while you might not make the passive value the baseline for all checks (and shouldn't), you could certainly use it in a mixed scenario.
To jump back to the search a room scenario; let's say the DM rolls for the difficulty of some hidden items, you might still ask the player's to roll checks, but then use the passive perception to determine which item(s) they find automatically?
When it comes to these kinds of checks the rules aren't really rules in the sense that they tell you what to do, they tell things that you can do, it's entirely up the DM how to use them, which is where it gets weird. Most of my groups rarely ever use passive checks, but then that's because a number of my DMs don't do a lot of accounting for the passage of time (i.e- every searching of a room is treated like it's being done in an instant so we can move on, I have to argue for "my character would not search quickly, they'd take 10 minutes to do it properly).
This is why I hope whatever updates we get in 2024 might include more examples-led rules for out of combat stuff, as while combat is very well defined and understood, everything else can be all over the place 99% of the time. Not helped by a lot of adventure modules not giving examples of passive vs. active checks either (often when something is hidden it has a fixed DC and invites you to ask the players roll checks, regardless of how quickly they're searching).
Perception is to see something, not to recognize what it is. To recognize what something is requires investigation.
Traps are almost by definition disguised/hidden. Otherwise it is a Hazard, not a trap.
You get a passive perception roll to realize that someone is there, hear what they are saying, etc.
You get a passive investigation to realize that something is an illusion (if it does not specify an action required), that the tiny crack is part of a floor trap rather than just a badly mortared floor, that the line next tot he door is likely a cord pulled when it opens, etc. etc.
That's the simple distinction I make as well. If you are not yet aware of it, it's perception. If you are aware of it, it's investigation. However, the phrase "passive perception roll" does not compute for me.
I suppose it depends on the exact situation; while you might not make the passive value the baseline for all checks (and shouldn't), you could certainly use it in a mixed scenario.
To jump back to the search a room scenario; let's say the DM rolls for the difficulty of some hidden items, you might still ask the player's to roll checks, but then use the passive perception to determine which item(s) they find automatically?
When it comes to these kinds of checks the rules aren't really rules in the sense that they tell you what to do, they tell things that you can do, it's entirely up the DM how to use them, which is where it gets weird. Most of my groups rarely ever use passive checks, but then that's because a number of my DMs don't do a lot of accounting for the passage of time (i.e- every searching of a room is treated like it's being done in an instant so we can move on, I have to argue for "my character would not search quickly, they'd take 10 minutes to do it properly).
This is why I hope whatever updates we get in 2024 might include more examples-led rules for out of combat stuff, as while combat is very well defined and understood, everything else can be all over the place 99% of the time. Not helped by a lot of adventure modules not giving examples of passive vs. active checks either (often when something is hidden it has a fixed DC and invites you to ask the players roll checks, regardless of how quickly they're searching).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Perception is to see something, not to recognize what it is. To recognize what something is requires investigation.
Traps are almost by definition disguised/hidden. Otherwise it is a Hazard, not a trap.
You get a passive perception roll to realize that someone is there, hear what they are saying, etc.
You get a passive investigation to realize that something is an illusion (if it does not specify an action required), that the tiny crack is part of a floor trap rather than just a badly mortared floor, that the line next tot he door is likely a cord pulled when it opens, etc. etc.
That's the simple distinction I make as well. If you are not yet aware of it, it's perception. If you are aware of it, it's investigation. However, the phrase "passive perception roll" does not compute for me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If the character has double the passive perception on a check I give them advantage on the roll.
If someone has worked that hard to bump their passive perception they should get some sort of additional benefit.
My 2cp.